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OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

Kyle Liburd said:
The guards of today are much more athletic and skilled than ever before i.e guys like Oladipo, Lavine, and Fox. Spurs have two great athletes in Walker and Murray.
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Skilled, maybe. Athletic? No. Look at the All-NBA guards from the mid-90s. Jordan, Penny, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Drexler.

The least athletic guy is Stockton, and he is miles ahead of Curry, Kyrie and Trae Young as an on-ball, lateral defender.

And that’s just the guards. It’s unfair to compare an athlete like David Robinson to Nikola Jokic. Embiid stands out today, and there were at least 4 centers physically better than him back then.

We can all agree that shooting is more important than ever. You can’t have it all and, as someone who watched both eras, shooting is taking priority over athleticism and man-to-man defense.
 
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DMoney said:
Skilled, maybe. Athletic? No. Look at the All-NBA guards from the mid-90s. Jordan, Penny, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Drexler.

The least athletic guy is Stockton, and he is miles ahead of Curry, Kyrie and Trae Young as an on-ball, lateral defender.

And that’s just the guards. It’s unfair to compare an athlete like David Robinson to Nikola Jokic. Embiid stands out today, and there were at least 4 centers physically better than him back then.

We can all agree that shooting is more important than ever. You can’t have it all and, as someone who watched both eras, shooting is taking priority over athleticism and man-to-man defense.
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Olajuwon, Shaq and Zo would have brutalized Embid.
 
Kyle Liburd said:
So all star Chris Paul who has OKC, a team no one thought much of, in the playoffs is a dinosaur. Got it. And I mentioned Chris Paul because he's only one of a handful of players that fit your 50% criteria. Out of players who attempt at least 2 10-14 foot jumpers per game, Kyrie, CP3, Khris Middleton, CJ McCollum, and Donovan Mitchell are the only ones who fit the bill. Of players who attempt at least 2 15-19 foot jumpers per game, CP3, Middleton, McCollum, Dlo, Josh Richardson, Brogdon, and Mitchell fit the bill. Klay and Steph would be in here if they were healthy. Kendrick Nunn just missed the list at 49%. I don't see any dinosaurs on that list.

Not many players were shooting 50% from the midrange in the 80s/90s.

Players Shooting | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring shooting information for each player in the league based on selected filters.
stats.nba.com stats.nba.com

Should today's players being taking more mid range is a different question though.
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They took more so I would think less shot 50% from mid range. I didn’t look at that stat. I scrolled back to 96/97 and the player that’s averaging the most mid range shots in 19/20 would rank tied for 29th then.
 
There’s probably more less athletic shooters in the modern NBA but it balances out because the stiffs and “enforcer” type players no longer exist. In the 80’s and 90’s the league was loaded with big guys who’s only skill was that they were tall. They couldn’t pass, they couldn’t shoot, they couldn’t dribble. They just clogged up the paint on defense and tried to grab occasional rebounds. Those guys don’t exist in the modern game.
 
DMoney said:
Skilled, maybe. Athletic? No. Look at the All-NBA guards from the mid-90s. Jordan, Penny, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Drexler.

The least athletic guy is Stockton, and he is miles ahead of Curry, Kyrie and Trae Young as an on-ball, lateral defender.

And that’s just the guards. It’s unfair to compare an athlete like David Robinson to Nikola Jokic. Embiid stands out today, and there were at least 4 centers physically better than him back then.

We can all agree that shooting is more important than ever. As someone who watched both eras, it seems teams are sacrificing athleticism and finishing for shooting. You can’t have it all, and shooting takes priority over athleticism and man-to-man defense.
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Gary Payton is a dawg, one of my favorite players. But I don't think he is close to the other you guys listed as far as athleticism. Today's guys are more skilled, that's without question. The elite athletes are elite athletes. Never denying Penny, Drexler, and KJ of that time. But depth wise there are way more sensational athletes at guard then before. So Stockton was better on ball defender when his era's guards weren't as fast, skilled, and were not strong scoring threats because point guards were setting up the post up, baseline plays or protecting the ball. It's easier to be a defender that way. Stockton would run into the same on ball problems Curry, Kyrie and Trae run into. And athleticism isn't defense, and Kyrie and Curry are way ahead of Stockton on athleticism. Let's not act like Terry Porter didn't give Stockton the business in the playoffs either.

Oladipo and Lavine can match any athlete from era. The Terence Ross and Lonnie Walker types make the guard pool deeper.

A decent amount of big men today like Javale McGee, Marquesse Chriss, Willie Cauley Stein, and Jaxson Hayes are pure rim runners and lob threats on offense. A lot of quick jump centers in today's NBA, which is different from the back to basket types developed beforehand. However, the elite centers of that era were more impressive athletes across the broad though.
 
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DTP said:
There’s probably more less athletic shooters in the modern NBA but it balances out because the stiffs and “enforcer” type players no longer exist. In the 80’s and 90’s the league was loaded with big guys who’s only skill was that they were tall. They couldn’t pass, they couldn’t shoot, they couldn’t dribble. They just clogged up the paint on defense and tried to grab occasional rebounds. Those guys don’t exist in the modern game.
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True, but that’s another reason perimeter players needed to be more athletic back in the day.

They needed the vertical ability and strength to finish over those trees. It’s a lot easier to finish now, which helps the Kemba Walker’s of the world.
 
Kyle Liburd said:
Stockton would run into the same on ball problems Curry, Kyrie and Trae run into.
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No chance. Bad is bad. Those guys are bad defenders, lack physical strength (especially Curry and Trae) and don’t have great explosiveness. That’s on top of effort issues.

Again, people need to separate skill from pure athleticism. Durant was one of the worst athletes in the history of the NBA combine, but he has rare length and skill level.
 
DMoney said:
No chance. Bad is bad. Those guys are bad defenders, lack physical strength (especially Curry and Trae) and don’t have great explosiveness. That’s on top of effort issues.

Again, people need to separate skill from pure athleticism. Durant was one of the worst athletes in the history of the NBA combine, but he has rare length and skill level.
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Alright you're just going to ignore 85% of every post I make so it's cool. Like I said, let's not act like Terry Porter didn't give Stockton the business. Guy averaged 17 ppg in the regular season then gave Stockton 30 ppg in the playoffs and we're acting like he was Patrick Beverly while completely ignoring Stockton was sometimes matched up against bums like Robert Pack instead of Chris Paul and Damian Lillard every year. People still remember Stockton getting torched by Terry Porter because the other series he was guarding Vinny Del ***** and Robert Pack. When he went against KJ he got torched by him too.

I know what skill on the basketball court is. I know what athleticism on the basketball court is. But if you think Stockton is a better athlete than Curry and Kyrie then we are so far apart. I think Stockton is right there with those guys as far as skill but he was more functional and economic.

Damian Lillard isn't a top 5 athlete at the point guard position and would be an elite 90s point guard in terms of athleticism.
 
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DMoney said:
Skilled, maybe. Athletic? No. Look at the All-NBA guards from the mid-90s. Jordan, Penny, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Drexler.
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Jordan would be considered a wing today. And we now have 6’9-7’0 freak athletes like LeBron and KD on the wings.

The best big on defense can switch and guard wing players. We have bigger and more explosive point guards.

Just because we have more emphasis on shooting doesn’t mean that the athletes aren’t better. It’s really not close.
 
Kyle Liburd said:
Like I said, let's not act like Terry Porter didn't give Stockton the business. Guy averaged 17 ppg in the regular season then gave Stockton 30 ppg in the playoffs and we're acting like he's Eric Bledsoe.
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You can tell Stockton is a 5X All-Defense guy because people still remember his bad series 30 years later.

Kyrie, Curry and Trae get cooked by everyone as a matter of course. They lack the tools and the effort on that end of the floor. They are top players because of their incredible ballhandling and shooting and despite their lack of physical prowess.

And Stockton was the worst athlete on that list. Guys like Penny and Jordan are miles ahead of Harden, Kemba and the other All-NBA guards in terms of athleticism.

The one exception is Russell Westbrook, and you have analytics types saying he doesn’t fit the modern game. That tells you all you need to know about what gets prioritized.
 
AllAboutTheU said:
And we now have 6’9-7’0 freak athletes like LeBron and KD on the wings.
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KD is not a freak athlete. He has elite skill at his length, which makes him great.

He tested as one of the worst athletes in combine history.

www.espn.com

Report: Durant's pre-draft workout fails to impress

Kevin Durant wowed NBA teams in his one college season at Texas. At last week's pre-draft camp? Not so much, according to a confidential draft camp report obtained by The Seattle Times.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
 
DMoney said:
You can tell Stockton is a 5X All-Defense guy because people still remember his bad series 30 years later.

Kyrie, Curry and Trae get cooked by everyone as a matter of course. They lack the tools and the effort on that end of the floor. They are top players because of their incredible ballhandling and shooting and despite their lack of physical prowess.

And Stockton was the worst athlete on that list. Guys like Penny and Jordan are miles ahead of Harden, Kemba and the other All-NBA guards in terms of athleticism.

The one exception is Russell Westbrook, and you have analytics types saying he doesn’t fit the modern game. That tells you all you need to know about what gets prioritized.
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Lmao at the one exception is Russell Westbrook, now you're being obtuse to make a point. BTW Russ's athleticism has nothing to do with why analytics say he doesn't fit the modern game. Still haven't seen all these great athletes you keep mentioning besides the elite guys which, like I said in my first post, are elite athletes in any era.

Like I said, Dame Lillard isn't a top 10 athlete at the point guard position today and would be top 5 athlete in Stockton's era and would give them all buckets.

Kyrie and Steph (no argument on Trae) don't get to where they are with ballhandling and shooting alone. They are exceptional movers - great hips, strong glutes, and excellent balance. The power from the hips and glutes enhance their shifty and how their ankles move. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is a phenomenal mover but doesn't have the skill of Kyrie or Steph.
 
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Kyle Liburd said:
Lmao at the one exception is Russell Westbrook, alright I'm out. BTW Russ's athleticism has nothing to do with why analytics say he doesn't fit the modern game.
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That’s the point. They prioritize other things and that's why one of the greatest athletes in NBA history is considered a “net negative” in today’s game.
 
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Sean Kemp
Xavier McDaniel
Clyde Drexler
Gary Payton
Len Bias
Charles Barkley on the 76ers
Denies Rodman
The list goes on and on for the nba in the past and now when it comes to athletes.
nba is a **** genetic testing ground
Look at Shaq. He could’ve been a left tackle l. Lol
 
It is not lost on me that this thread also put MLB players in this conversation, to which I still find the premise absolutely ridiculous.

The emphasis on skill and specialization does not take away the athleticism that these athletes have.
 
Expansion is a culprit too. Guys that are Triple A or D League players are on rosters now because of the need to fill slots. Play would be a lot better if you chopped down both leagues.
 
BoxingRobes said:
The emphasis on skill and specialization does not take away the athleticism that these athletes have.
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Human beings have not evolved in 25 years. There were elite athletes back then, too. That's why it's important to note what is emphasized, and what isn't.

In terms of baseball, the super-athlete with supreme defense and elite basestealing is no longer as valued as the bad-bodied hitter who walks a ton and hits. That's the classic Billy Beane v. Lenny Dykstra comparison in Moneyball.

In basketball, it has become more of a European game. It is no coincidence Europeans like Doncic and Jokic (who lack explosive athleticism) are having so much more success. They used to get eaten alive.
 
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