OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

[Gooner#44]

The difference is in the NFL you start in the NFL, not in A ball in Bum****ed, Oregon. Kyler Murray made that choice partly for that reason.

 

[DMoney]

Absolutely. Jeff probably has made about 120 million in his career and he’s been an above average starter at best. The money difference but career length is no where near the same when talking baseball to Football. Let me show you this as well.

But that’s nothing new. The same was true when Bo Jackson chose baseball as his primary sport.

 

[brock]

This is where there is a disconnect. The PFs back then were bigger than today’s centers.

Imagine Rodman at center. Or even Pippen. They would have no problem dealing with Bam.

Conversely, nobody today could deal with Hakeem or Shaq or David Robinson.

In the early 90’s or 2000’s? Ben Wallace was a beast defensively in the early/mid 2000s and he was all of 6’8 at center but couldn’t guard positions 1-5

 

[blushrts]

Human beings have not evolved in 25 years. There were elite athletes back then, too. That's why it's important to note what is emphasized, and what isn't.

In terms of baseball, the super-athlete with supreme defense and elite basestealing is no longer as valued as the bad-bodied hitter who walks a ton and hits. That's the classic Billy Beane v. Lenny Dykstra comparison in Moneyball.

In basketball, it has become more of a European game. It is no coincidence Europeans like Doncic and Jokic (who lack explosive athleticism) are having so much more success. They used to get eaten alive.

Barry Bonds was a great example of the super athlete when he started. Great outfielder, 30 30 guy. Who turned into a statue in the field and a home run or strikeout guy by the end.

 

[User-4525]

This is where there is a disconnect. The PFs back then were stronger than today’s centers.

Imagine Rodman at center. Or even Pippen. They would have no problem dealing with Bam and could switch everything.

Conversely, nobody today could deal with Hakeem or Shaq or David Robinson.

No one back then could deal with those guys either though! That's why they're all time greats.

 

[DMoney]

No one back then could deal with those guys either though! That's why they're all time greats.

Not only did you have Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson, but you also had guys like Alonzo Mourning and ****mbe Mutombo. These are strong, explosive athletes who could run up and down the court. That physical, athletic presence is lacking inside these days.

PF is a position that spotlights the difference. Dirk is the most influential guy on the modern 4. You also have true wings playing 4, which would've been Scottie Pippen, Dominique Wilkins and Grant Hill back then. But if you look at true 4s, you can see the incredible explosiveness and strength of the 90s guys:

Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Shawn Kemp
Dennis Rodman
Chris Webber
Larry Johnson
Horace Grant

All of those guys made a living running and jumping. They weren't stretch fours.

 

[Zbrod95]

The difference is in the NFL you start in the NFL, not in A ball in Bum****ed, Oregon. Kyler Murray made that choice partly for that reason.

Kyler made his decision because he’s a QB and in all likelihood would’ve made more money playing football Not because of him spending like a month in A ball. He was a college draftee and they’re usually pushed through the system pretty fast unless they struggle which probably wouldn’t have happened with Kyler.

 

[User-4525]

Not only did you have Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson, but you also had guys like Alonzo Mourning and ****mbe Mutombo. These are strong, explosive athletes who could run up and down the court. That physical, athletic presence is lacking inside these days.

PF is a position that spotlights the difference. Dirk is the most influential guy on the modern 4. You also have true wings playing 4, which would've been Scottie Pippen, Dominique Wilkins and Grant Hill back then. But if you look at true 4s, you can see the incredible explosiveness and strength of the 90s guys:

Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Shawn Kemp
Dennis Rodman
Chris Webber
Larry Johnson
Horace Grant

All of those guys made a living running and jumping.

Agree completely with the bolded.

That was a great era of PFs and basketball went from those guys to Tim Duncan, KG, and Dirk which led to the era we're in now for PFs. The PFs today are more versatile and skilled, not as strong and stout.

Giannis
Anthony Davis
Bam Adebayo
Jayson Tatum
Zion Williamson
Pascal Siakam
Draymond Green
Lamarcus Aldridge
Kevin Love
Domantas Sabonis

And a lot of the guys I listed play the 5 anywhere from 25-50% of their playing time. Guys like Aaron Gordon and Eric Paschall fit that 90s build you mention of stout forwards running and jumping.

 

[Gooner#44]

Kyler made his decision because he’s a QB and in all likelihood would’ve made more money playing football Not because of him spending like a month in A ball. He was a college draftee and they’re usually pushed through the system pretty fast unless they struggle which probably wouldn’t have happened with Kyler.

He was very unproven as a baseball player, drafted off potential. I watched him play quite a bit in person at OU, he would not have made the jump very soon to an MLB roster. His first love was always football but he mentioned what I said in more than one interview.

I would probably choose baseball but one has to weight 162 baseball games vs 16 football games. I don't blame the kid whatever way he goes, if the hardest decision he has to make is to play pro football or pro baseball he is doing fine.

 

[DMoney]

The PFs today are more versatile and skilled, not as strong and stout.

They are certainly more skilled now. Better shooters and handlers. But as far as forces of nature who fly down the court and cram on everyone with power? That's the 90s group.

Zion is a throwback to that era in many ways.

 

[User-4525]

He was very unproven as a baseball player, drafted off potential. I watched him play quite a bit in person at OU, he would not have made the jump very soon to an MLB roster. His first love was always football but he mentioned what I said in more than one interview.

I would probably choose baseball but one has to weight 162 baseball games vs 16 football games. I don't blame the kid whatever way he goes, if the hardest decision he has to make is to play pro football or pro baseball he is doing fine.

The talk about the money in baseball vs football was pretty dumb too considering quarterbacks always get paid. He had proven he was an elite quarterback already but not an elite baseball player and you have to be elite to get money like Kyler will on his second contract

 

[Gooner#44]

The talk about the money in baseball vs football was pretty dumb too considering quarterbacks always get paid. He had proven he was an elite quarterback already but not an elite baseball player and you be elite to get money like Kyler will on his second contract

I agree, he hit .260 at OU and .170 in Cape Cod, he was not going to the Bigs anytime soon

 

[User-4525]

They are certainly more skilled now. Better shooters and handlers. But as far as forces of nature who fly down the court and cram on everyone with power? That's the 90s group.

Zion is a throwback to that era in many ways.

Guys like Bam, Siakam, Tatum, and Green move all over on defense, which the others weren't asked to do in their time.

Agree on the underlined. It's great to see a player be so dominant with the postup at this time. Zion is so much like Barkley.

 

[DTP]

Rule changes killed low post game. In the 90’s you couldn’t double until they got the ball. Now, you can play a man in front and another behind. Big guys can’t just post up on the low block anymore. That’s why they have to be able to shoot now.

 

[We the Boss]

Swingmen were stronger, tougher and more explosive back then. Switching favors their talents.

Take the 1996 Bulls. If modern teams played small with them, they would move Rodman to C and Kukoc to PF with Harper/Jordan/Pippen on the perimeter. That would be the best switching team in history.

Don’t disagree but the 96 bulls were far from the norm. Dennis played the 5 against Shaq and shut his **** down that year in the playoffs.

 

[KSCanes]

Athletes are freaks today. The way that they take care of their body is far more advanced

 

[Cribby]

the nba is unwatchable. Guys taking 2-3 steps in between dribbles, taking 4-5 steps when driving to the hoop, or just chucking it up from where the **** ever.

I was a huge nba fan growing up but like you said “ it’s unwatchable”.

The rules don’t allow defense and on top of it the guys give zero ***** about effort on d. I’m amazed at how many easy layups and wide open Jumpers.

It’s all three pointers , no post game or intermediate game. Nobody wants to play d and if you do play d aggressive you’re considered dirty.

 

[Cribby]

Skilled, maybe. Athletic? No. Look at the All-NBA guards from the mid-90s. Jordan, Penny, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Drexler.

The least athletic guy is Stockton, and he is miles ahead of Curry, Kyrie and Trae Young as an on-ball, lateral defender.

And that’s just the guards. It’s unfair to compare an athlete like David Robinson to Nikola Jokic. Embiid stands out today, and there were at least 4 centers physically better than him back then.

We can all agree that shooting is more important than ever. You can’t have it all and, as someone who watched both eras, shooting is taking priority over athleticism and man-to-man defense.

Nba all defensive second team five years , would’ve been a bunch of first teams but the glove ran that spot.

The athlete is far superior like some think , harden is raping the nba and he’s nothing special. You just can’t touch these guys , the floor is spread , they all manipulate the rules and the usage ratings are at an all time crazy level.

 

[NC_Canes_11]

One of the complaints from ex-players, which I agree with, is that less contact is taking the athleticism out of the game. If everything is a walk, K or HR, there isn't as much need for athleticism in the field. Similarly, if steals aren't as important, a guy who is a C+ hitter and an A+ basestealer is going to lose his spot to a B- hitter.

This all has a downward impact on overall athleticism. The essence of the game is the same, but the tiebreakers favor skills other than athleticism.

Watch tape of guys today compared to guys in the 80s and 90s, it’s not close. Athletes today overwhelm those of the past. Arms are stronger, pitchers are faster to the plate, and pick off moves are better. That evens out a lot of the increased speed.

The game has changed. Analytics have taken over. Stolen bases are down bc they aren’t valued as much as they used to be. “A bloop and a blast,” is a legit offensive approach that would’ve been laughed at a decade ago. Older guys complain about strike outs bc it’s boring, but you’ll never hear any of them claim it was harder to hit back then. There are 100 guys who throw as hard as Nolan Ryan today. And I’m not defending the K rate in today’s game, bc I don’t agree completely agree with it, but to say it only has to do with offensive approaches and lack of athleticism is a joke.

 

[LuCane]

Good question. I have said for 3 decades now that the move to the 3 pt shot in basketball changed the game in ways that left to less talented overall players. The whole game was about getting the best mid-range shots originally, because that’s where the odds were. And that meant using the backboard, posting, turnarounds, and passing in the lane. It also meant mid-sized guys were critical. When the rules paid off for chucking up 3s, it went to outside in, smaller shooters and inside cloggers. Ripples through defense, too. Add on the defense changes that reduced contact, and again you give run to technical skill over athletic ability, imo. The sad thing is, I don’t know who benefitted rom these changes. Basketball is much more painful to watch today than back in the ‘80s-90s.

Baseball is similar, whether it is from drugs, equipment changes or training changes (likely all 3), long ball changed the sport from what it was in the 60s-80s. And yes, overall speed and athletic ability took a back seat to power and arm. But it made it better for TV, and that’s why it happened.

I think the answer is obvious. Between analytics and the internet, the game changed. The NBA skewed its target audience to kids and the social media crowd. People who sit and watch entire games are seemingly less important to them than the highlights they can string together to post on Instagram. So, deep 3s, a couple crazy moves, some dunks. Voila. Watching a game is ******* horrendous because of it.

 

[rch]

I use to love the NBA when I was younger, now 6'11" guys are standing around the 3 point line jacking it up. It is not unusual for 50% of the
shots are 3 balls,. I rarely watch anymore, and when I do it's the 4th quarter, even if it is the heat. Baseball is just too long as are most
broadcast sports today. When I went to football games with my dad, games rarely went for more than 2 1/2 hours, now I spent most pf my time
yelling , "Let's get this game rolling", during many of the 10 minute pauses.