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OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

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Kyle Liburd said:
Quite possibly the laziest way ever to look at which era has better athletes. Take the top 100 scorers from 96-97 versus the top 100 scorers of 19-20 and it isn't even close which group has the better athletes
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I would say your method is lazier, considering you didn't even go through the list.

I suspect you will find a lot of powerful athletes like Antonio McDyess and Jerry Stackhouse, along with a dearth of "Stretch Fours." Ryan Anderson wasn't getting a big contract in the mid-90s.
 
Kyle Liburd said:
He does.

Only athletic skill is jumping and running to them. But doesn't fit their narrative when the most athletic point guard ever puts up 30 inch vertical without any outlier speed.
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Yea, D is surprising me with his lack of nuance around this discussion, especially for a guy who seems to understand different types of athleticism in terms of football. Luka is another elite deceleration guy. Stopping and starting on a dime is an elite athletic skill. Kyrie is another one. And that’s not even discussing Kyrie, Steph having out of this world hand-eye coordination, which is also an athletic trait.

Testing for NBA guys is literally worthless. They don’t train for that and GMs don’t care about it. Most of the top picks don’t even participate in the NBA. We literally ushered in a generation of the most athletic Lead guards ever with the Rose and Westbrook era, and now are following up with guys like Ja and De’Aron Fox. We have never seen a more athletic NBA than this and Karl Malone being strong as an ox and Shawn Kemp or Clyde Drexler’s verticals don’t change that.
 
DMoney said:
I would say your method is lazier, considering you didn't even go through the list.

I suspect you will find a lot of powerful athletes like Antonio McDyess and Jerry Stackhouse, along with a dearth of "Stretch Fours." Ryan Anderson wasn't getting a big contract in the mid-90s.
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You’re conflating skills, salary cap changes, overall changes in the style of basketball, and athleticism all at once. Comparing Ryan Anderson across eras is worthless. He’s a specialist and got paid by a team who really valued what he’s good at. The contract was looked at horribly after a few years. There’s a lot more money in the sport now so guess what, teams are willing to take risks that they think increase their variance. You of all people understand the numbers.
 
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DMoney said:
I would say your method is lazier, considering you didn't even go through the list.

I suspect you will find a lot of powerful athletes like Antonio McDyess and Jerry Stackhouse, along with a dearth of "Stretch Fours." Ryan Anderson wasn't getting a big contract in the mid-90s.
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You're denying reality. The 96-97 season had Antoine Walker, Tom Gugliotta, Terrell Brandon, Kerry Kittles, Christian Laettner, 36 year old Dale Ellis, 34 year old Otis Thrope, Juwan Howard, Todd Day, Doug Christie, Hersey Hawkins, Olden Polynice, Vlade Divac, Hersey Hawkins, Bryant Reeves, Eric Williams, Elden Campbell, Anthony Peeler, Loy Vaught, Rodney Rogers and a bunch of other non-special athletes by NBA standards giving dudes buckets. Somehow they mysteriously never find a way to your keyboard. Guys in the mid to late 90s had trouble staying in front of Sam Cassell, including Penny Hardaway who is an elite athlete.

Kendal Gil cannot see Zach LaVine or Oladipo. Chris Gatling was an all star that year. Are you going to go all in on all stars Latrell Sprewell and Detlef Schrempf's athleticism? Or go straight for the thesis on Vin Baker? Detlef made all 3 of his all star games after he turned 30.
 
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AllAboutTheU said:
Yea, D is surprising me with his lack of nuance around this discussion, especially for a guy who seems to understand different types of athleticism in terms of football. Luka is another elite deceleration guy. Stopping and starting on a dime is an elite athletic skill. Kyrie is another one. And that’s not even discussing Kyrie, Steph having out of this world hand-eye coordination, which is also an athletic trait.
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How is their stop-and start on defense, when they don't have the ball? Why do they get smoked so easily?
 
Kyle Liburd said:
You're denying reality. year old Otis Thrope, Juwan Howard, Todd Day, Doug Christie, Hersey Hawkins, Olden Polynice, Vlade Divac, Hersey Hawkins, Bryant Reeves, Eric Williams, Elden Campbell, Anthony Peeler, Loy Vaught, Rodney Rogers and a bunch of other non-special athletes by NBA standards giving dudes buckets. Somehow they mysteriously never find a way to your keyboard.
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Should we talk about Joe Harris, Duncan Robinson, Nemanja Bjelica, Jonas Valancuianas, Domantas Sabonis, Cody Zeller, Brook Lopez, Cedi Osman and the rest?

It's better to compare the top guys because the top guys should include some of your top athletes. That was certainly true in the mid-90s. Not as true today.
 
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DMoney said:
Should we talk about Joe Harris, Duncan Robinson, Nemanja Bjelica, Jonas Valancuianas, Domantas Sabonis, Cody Zeller, Brook Lopez, Cedi Osman and the rest?

It's better to compare the top guys because the top guys should include some of your top athletes. That was certainly true in the mid-90s. Not as true today.
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Difference between my list and the guys you just listed is the guys I listed were the top or top 3 options for their teams. None of the guys you listed except Sabonis is a top 3 option for their team. You found as many white and European players as possible to throw together though.
 
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DMoney said:
How is their stop-and start on defense, when they don't have the ball? Why do they get smoked so easily?
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Defense is largely understanding of positioning, effort, and want to. You do not have to be an elite athlete to be a good defender. I’m sure you’d point to Draymond Green’s testing or body fat at and tell us that he’s not a great athlete. But those things combined with body types such as really long arms make guys have a chance, and of course the guys who have all of these and are also great athletes like PG, Akashi, LeBron, Giannis, can just lock in when they want.

And guys who are carrying their teams with nearly 30% of a usage rate, often don’t exert the same energy on defense. Who is surprised there? Again, you’re adding another factor that has nothing to do with athleticism. But tell me why All-Stars Terrell Brandon, Mookie Blalock, Dana Barros, and BJ Armstrong were such great athletes compared to these guys now.
 
DMoney said:
This is from an article last month (Forbes) on the Top 10 Players of the 2020 season:

1-Giannis Antetokounmpo
2-James Harden
3-LeBron James
4-Kawhi Leonard
5-Luka Doncic
6-Anthony Davis
7-Nikola Jokic
8-Damian Lillard
9-Chris Paul
10. Jimmy Butler

Giannis, LeBron and Davis are freaks in any era. But look at the rest. Harden and Butler can't keep up with guys like Jordan and Clyde athletically. Penny Hardaway is a better athlete than any guard on the list by a mile. No comparison between Robinson, Dream, Shaq and Jokic. Compare Grant Hill to his modern equivalent in Doncic. Kawhi is a beast with great hands, but he's not Shawn Kemp or Pippen as an athlete.

In terms of handle and shooting, it's the modern era. But the 90s was an era of power and explosiveness.
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The problem with this is your using a list of 10 "best players" from 1 year, and comparing them to who you remember as the "most explosive" players over a 10 period.

Blake Griffin, Dwight Howard, Zion, KAT, Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, Paul George, Siakam - these guys are as good athletes as anyone from the 90's. Karl Malone could out-muscle some of these these guys, but Karl Malone would get circles run round him in athleticism.

Just because they shoot 3's, you're discounting the athleticism of today's guards - Damian Lillard (39" vert), Bradley Beal (39" vert), James Harden (37" vert), Kemba Walker (39.5" vert), Jimmy Butler (39" vert), CJ McCollum (38.5" vert). Penny isn't a better athlete by a mile.

If you compare players 1-10, you have an argument for the 90's. If you compare players 30-50, you'll see it skewing towards 2020. The deeper you go, the more it skews further to 2020. The NBA is much deeper with athletes now, top to bottom.
 
DMoney said:
Strange examples. Latrell Sprewell was a great athlete. And Detlef Schrempf wishes he played in this era. He'd be a legend.

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Where is the "great athleticism" in that highlight tape? Can't be those dunks. A minute into a great athlete's career highlights and we're seeing finger rolls. Good, not great.

Detlef is a baaaaaad boy, but not a legend in any era. And it's not strange at all. You keep talking about athleticism being so important but guys were making all star teams and putting up better numbers when their athleticism faded. Detlef was 34 during the 96-97 season.
 
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DMoney said:
I would say your method is lazier, considering you didn't even go through the list.

I suspect you will find a lot of powerful athletes like Antonio McDyess and Jerry Stackhouse, along with a dearth of "Stretch Fours." Ryan Anderson wasn't getting a big contract in the mid-90s.
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Plenty of role players got significant contracts in the mid-90s. Sean Elliott, old af AC Green, washed Danny Manning, Horace Grant, Jayson Williams. Late 80s, early 90s, the ridiculous Jon Koncak contract.
 
Kyle Liburd said:
Lol at "great athlete." Where is the "great athleticism" in that highlight tape? Can't be those dunks. A minute into a great athlete's career highlights and we're seeing finger rolls. Good, not great.
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I know you were too young to see Sprewell in his prime, but compare this guy to Devin Booker and Buddy Hield as an athlete:

 
bshaw28 said:
Just because they shoot 3's, you're discounting the athleticism of today's guards - Damian Lillard (39" vert), Bradley Beal (39" vert), James Harden (37" vert), Kemba Walker (39.5" vert), Jimmy Butler (39" vert), CJ McCollum (38.5" vert). Penny isn't a better athlete by a mile.
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Exactly. James Harden rolls out of bed and has a 37 inch vert yet he's somehow not a good athlete. On top of his world class deceleration.
 
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AllAboutTheU said:
Defense is largely understanding of positioning, effort, and want to. You do not have to be an elite athlete to be a good defender.
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Athleticism is a huge part of NBA defense. There is a laundry list of try-hard white guys who got blown out of the league because they couldn't stay in front of anybody.

Of course, those guys have more of a chance these days as long as they can shoot.
 
DMoney said:
I know you were too young to see Sprewell in his prime, but compare this guy to Devin Booker and Buddy Hield as an athlete:

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He's a better athlete than both of them but I wouldn't call him a better athlete than Jaylen Brown or Donovan Mitchell

I saw Sprewell in his prime and have watched plenty of his games. If you think he is a special athlete you're blinded by the aura of nostalgia.
 
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DMoney said:
I know you were too young to see Sprewell in his prime, but compare this guy to Devin Booker and Buddy Hield as an athlete:

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Why not compare him to Brad Beal? Zach LaVine? Victor Oladipo? These guys are more apt comparisons. Mitch Richmond and Buddy Hield are far more similar guys.
 
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