OT- Have athletes gotten worse in the NBA/MLB?

Athleticism is a huge part of NBA defense. There is a laundry list of try-hard white guys who got blown out of the league because they couldn't stay in front of anybody.

Of course, those guys have more of a chance these days as long as they can shoot.
Yes, you need to have the baseline level of foot speed to stay in front of world class athletes, but there are plenty of GREAT athletes who are poor defenders. Slow footed white guys get blown by in any era. The team defensive schemes are also a lot better, and rule changes don't create the same scenarios where guys are just left on an island with no help like the past.
 
Advertisement
Why not compare him to Brad Beal? Zach LaVine? Victor Oladipo? These guys are more apt comparisons.

Brad Beal is not a great athlete. A guy like Eddie Jones, while not as skilled, moved better laterally and vertically.

Should we compare Zach Lavine to Kevin Johnson? How about Oladipo and Jerry Stackhouse?
 
This is a silly question. No, athletes have not gotten worse in professional sports, the games have changed though.

The reason why teams don't run as much in MLB today is because of the fact that small ball has been proven to be pretty pointless in the era of sabermetrics. Playing Whiteyball is kinda pointless if you have guys that can deliver the same production in one swing. Strikeouts stink, but when you are able to make up for those at bats in the aggregate, then it doesn't matter as much. Earl Weaver saw this 50 years ago, it's just now backed by statistics. You also have to remember that once traditional astroturf disappeared, running became even more of an iffy proposition. During the astroturf/multipurpose stadium era, it was like running on a track, and fielding every batted ball was an adventure. If you had a ton of speedy guys that could hit the ball on the ground, you could easily stretch what would be routine singles into doubles. You also have to keep in mind that those stadiums were huge, which made power hitters even less valuable, because those parks limited homers.

That isn't the case today. The return to baseball only facilities mean that a power hitter can easily reach the seats now, when 30 years ago, a lot of these blasts would just be long fly outs, or at best an extra base hit.

The NBA has also been affected by advanced statistics. Guys shooting midrange jumpers are obsolete, because it is literally the most inefficient shot on the floor(outside of the long two pointer). Unless you are shooting a layup/dunk, you are better off hitting a three. Simple math: A good midrange shooter will connect on 50%+ of his shots. That means that in theory, that they will score 100 points per 100 shots(jumpshooters are rarely fouled in the NBA). A decent perimeter shooter will shoot in the 35% range. So, for every 100 shots they take, they will score 105 points.

The games changing are more a reflection of people knowing more about how baskets/runs are scored and less about the athletes themselves.
 
Brad Beal is not a great athlete. A guy like Eddie Jones, while not as skilled, moves better laterally and vertically.

Should we compare Zach Lavine to Kevin Johnson? How about Oladipo and Jerry Stackhouse?
You brag about testing on one hand, but when a guy has the measurements that match up with your testing qualifications, you say that he isn't a great athlete.

LaVine is quick, fast, and a 40+ inch vertical. He's dunking with 2 hands from the free throw line with ease. Oladipio also had a 40+ inch vertical. They compare favorably to both of these guys for sure.
 
You brag about testing on one hand, but when a guy has the measurements that match up with your testing qualifications, you say that he isn't a great athlete.

LaVine is quick, fast, and a 40+ inch vertical. He's dunking with 2 hands from the free throw line with ease. Oladipio also had a 40+ inch vertical. They compare favorably to both of these guys for sure.

We don’t have testing for the other guys. Everybody is using the eye test.
 
Advertisement
The games changing are more a reflection of people knowing more about how baskets/runs are scored and less about the athletes themselves.

This is exactly the point. Who is picking the players?

And are those people more or less likely to take a chance on the freak athlete who strikes out too much or can’t shoot?
 
Should we talk about Joe Harris, Duncan Robinson, Nemanja Bjelica, Jonas Valancuianas, Domantas Sabonis, Cody Zeller, Brook Lopez, Cedi Osman and the rest?

It's better to compare the top guys because the top guys should include some of your top athletes. That was certainly true in the mid-90s. Not as true today.

Bulls teams thru the mid-90's had 2 great athletes in Jordan/Pippen at SG/SF

Then they had:

C - Bill Cartwright, Will Purdue, Bill Wennington, Luc Longley
PF - Horace Grant, Stacey King, Scott Williams
SG - John Paxson, Craig Hodges, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr

That looks like a very nonathletic collection of players that were stacking championships.

I think you're working off a very nostalgic/romanticized memory of how things were.
 
I feel like the athleticism is still there in the NBA. Its just becoming more of a finesse/perimeter style of game so there arent anymore bangers.

Our last 2 1st rounders with lonnie and larkin tested very well athletically
 
Advertisement
Bulls teams thru the mid-90's had 2 great athletes in Jordan/Pippen at SG/SF

Honest question: how old were you for those Bulls teams? I ask because you are lumping players together who never even played on the same team.

Horace Grant was an incredible athlete and four-time All-Defense. That first Bulls run was defined by Jordan/Pippen/Grant-- the best and most athletic defensive perimeter of the era. In the second run, Grant was replaced by an even freakier athlete named Dennis Rodman.
 
Honest question: how old were you for those Bulls teams? I ask because you are lumping players together who never even played on the same team.

Horace Grant was an incredible athlete and four-time All-Defense. That first Bulls run was defined by Jordan/Pippen/Grant-- the best and most athletic defensive perimeter of the era. In the second run, Grant was replaced by an even freakier athlete named Dennis Rodman.
Can't stand the Bulls but can't deny Horace Grant in his prime...
 
Advertisement
the nba is unwatchable. Guys taking 2-3 steps in between dribbles, taking 4-5 steps when driving to the hoop, or just chucking it up from where the **** ever.
You prefer a good 45-47 NCAA game where they can’t shoot? College basketball is trash mostly
 
Honest question: how old were you for those Bulls teams? I ask because you are lumping players together who never even played on the same team.

Horace Grant was an incredible athlete and four-time All-Defense. That first Bulls run was defined by Jordan/Pippen/Grant-- the best and most athletic defensive perimeter of the era. In the second run, Grant was replaced by an even freakier athlete named Dennis Rodman.

No I'm not.

These guys were on all of the first 3 Bulls championship teams, and on the Bulls 1990-1994.

Horace Grant
Bill Cartwright
BJ Armstrong
Stacey King
Will Purdue
John Paxson
Scott Williams

That was the Bulls core for 5 years. If I'm wrong on any of those players, or I'm leaving off a great athlete from those teams - feel free to point that out.

Horace Grant was a very good athlete. Certainly not incredible. John Stockton was 5 time all-defensive. Bruce Bowen was 8 time. Marc Gasol was Defensive POY. Patrick Beverly is as good a defender as there is. I don't consider any of them "incredible" athletes.

The Bulls added more athleticism in the late 90's teams - but by that time guys you're listing as great athletes like Ewing, Olajuwon, Barkley, Drexler - were well passed their prime.
 
No I'm not.

These guys were on all of the first 3 Bulls championship teams, and on the Bulls 1990-1994.

You included Longley and Wennington (who were from the second run) yet omitted Rodman and others.

What made those early Bulls teams so great, along with Jordan, is that they suffocated teams on defense with overwhelming quickness on the perimeter.

The second run was similar, just replace Grant with Rodman.
 
Advertisement
You prefer a good 45-47 NCAA game where they can’t shoot? College basketball is trash mostly

I didn't say that at all. I am complaining mostly about the fact that the guys in the nba break/stretch the rules so far, especially if you are an overhyped player (lebron) that it makes the game junk. Why have rules at all if you aren't enforcing them?
 
You prefer a good 45-47 NCAA game where they can’t shoot? College basketball is trash mostly

Freedom of movement has been taken away at the college level. Jay Bilas makes great points about it almost every broadcast. The game offensively has gone downhill and that’s one of the reasons why.
 
You included Longley and Wennington (who were from the second run) yet omitted Rodman and others.

What made those early Bulls teams so great, along with Jordan, is that they suffocated teams on defense with overwhelming quickness on the perimeter.

The second run was similar, just replace Grant with Rodman.

Longley, Wennington, and Kukoc joined in 1993, so they caught the tail end of the first run.

The core of the late 90's run was:

Dennis Rodman
Toni Kukoc
Steve Kerr
Ron Harper
Bill Wennington
Luc Longley
Jason Caffey
Randy Brown
Judd Beuchler

A little (not a lot) more athletic than the early 90's - but still pretty nonathletic top to bottom.

Rodman was still a freak, but not the same as he was earlier in his career. He last made all defensive in 95-96 when Kemp at him for breakfast in the finals. By 1998 he was 36 and coming off the bench in the playoffs. Harper was 31 when he joined the Bulls in 94. Kukoc is similar to someone like Gallinari today.

What I'm saying is take LeBron/AD off the Lakers, and the rest of the 2020 Lakers look much more athletic than the 1990's Bulls

2020 Lakers:

Kyle Kuzma
KCP
Avery Bradley
Rajan Rondo
Dwight Howard
JaVale McGee
Danny Green
Markieff Morris

Now look at those Utah teams the Bulls beat in 2 Finals the late 90's. How is this team more athletic than teams today?

Karl Malone
John Stockton
Jeff Hornacek
Bryon Russell
Shandon Anderson
Greg Ostertagg
Adam Keefe
Howard Eisley
Antoine Carr
 
Last edited:
I didn't say that at all. I am complaining mostly about the fact that the guys in the nba break/stretch the rules so far, especially if you are an overhyped player (lebron) that it makes the game junk. Why have rules at all if you aren't enforcing them?

There have always been different rules for stars. I guess people forget that Jordan stretched the hand check rules back in the day, utilizing his freakishly large hands to basically guide players around the court. You really think that had anyone else pulled that move on Byron Russell, they wouldn't have gotten called for something?
 
Advertisement
Back
Top