OT: Give me some MJ!

[For_The_U]

Yes I loved Bird and all of those Celtics but he would not be my first pick in a draft either. I'm just showing you Jordan was not close to being the best ever. It wasn't just early on it was for 7 years that nobody want's to hear about. It would probably be Jabbar, I saw what he did against Boston while he wasn't in his prime. Unstoppable if he got ****ed off. Wilt second, Magic, then Bird.

Jordan didn't really struggle against those Boston and Detroit teams, he just choked late in the games where the best players didn't. The last 6 minutes are where the games are won or lost most of the time. I like you too we have good BB conversations, it's all in a days fun. In his prime one on one do you think Jordan beats any of those guys? They could just back him down every time and it's over. I've always liked the bigger guys over small guys. Jordan was a great guard in my top two for most athletic ever to play the game.

You keep talking about Jordan being known for choking late in games. It's so strange; honestly, it's some alternate universe sh-t, my man. I think you really need to go watch how games ended for Chicago between 1991 and 1998.

 

[KevinCaneFace]

Alright brotha; I like u dude. I love all of my Boston fans, b/c their passion is 2nd to none. Listen, I’m one of the biggest Bird fan there is. It irks me that LBJ get puts ahead of him. To your point, both Bird & Magic drastically changed their respective franchises over night. I know ur not a fan of 90’s b-ball, but you me 80’s - 90’s produces the best games, rivalries, and iconic players. (No disrespect to the early great 60’s Celt, Minneapolis Lakes, or Philadelphia Warrior teams).

But ur discredit of MJ b/c he struggled as a young guy against arguably the best assembled team in the Eastern Conference of all time is laughable.

exactly. I wouldn’t even say he struggled. Jordan put up big numbers regularly against the Celtics. Just for example in his 63 point game six Celtics scored in double digits while only two other Bulls players did. (One of them had exactly 10)

The teams were no were close

 

[For_The_U]

Yes I loved Bird and all of those Celtics but he would not be my first pick in a draft either. I'm just showing you Jordan was not close to being the best ever. It wasn't just early on it was for 7 years that nobody want's to hear about. It would probably be Jabbar, I saw what he did against Boston while he wasn't in his prime. Unstoppable if he got ****ed off. Wilt second, Magic, then Bird.

Jordan didn't really struggle against those Boston and Detroit teams, he just choked late in the games where the best players didn't. The last 6 minutes are where the games are won or lost most of the time. I like you too we have good BB conversations, it's all in a days fun. In his prime one on one do you think Jordan beats any of those guys? They could just back him down every time and it's over. I've always liked the bigger guys over small guys. Jordan was a great guard in my top two for most athletic ever to play the game.

IMO, the greatest single sequence in the history of the sport is the final 41 secs of Jazz/Bulls Game 6 in 1998.

Down 3, Phil tells Mike he must score quickly to guarantee another posession. Instructs him he has 12 seconds.

Mike takes the inbounds and "drives right, hangs left, scores easily, wow" as he goes 1 vs all... and does so in FOUR seconds.

Other side of court. Stockton and Malone set up their post magic. Michael reads it, literally abandons his man and allows him to go out wide unmarked (Hornacek, one of the purest shooters of the time) because he had a 6th sense like that.

Ball is delivered low to The Mailman. Jordan, now in perfect position, sneaks from his blind side, slaps the ball away, pokes the loose ball a second time, and takes possession himself.

You know it from here. Michael looks at the clock as he calmly dribbles down the court and winds down the time, then breaks Russels ankles and splashes the short jumper, game winning jumper, championship winning jumper, hand held raised in the air as if time itself had stopped.

In those last 41 seconds, Game 6 of the NBA Finals, on the road in a hostile environment, down 3, not a single Chicago Bull touched the basketball other than Michael Jordan. Not only on offense, but on the other side of the court as well, even though the ball never went to the man he was guarding.

You're right, dude was a straight choke artist late. ;-)

 

[For_The_U]

IMO, the greatest single sequence in the history of the sport is the final 41 secs of Jazz/Bulls Game 6.

Down 3, Phil tells Mike he must score quickly to guarantee another posession. Instructs him he has 12 seconds.

Mike takes the inbounds and "drives right, hangs left, scores easily, wow" as he goes 1 vs all... and does so in FOUR seconds.

Other side of court. Stockton and Malone set up their post magic. Michael reads it, literally abandons his man and allows him to go out wide unmarked (Hornacek, one of the purest shooters of the time) because he had a 6th sense like that.

Ball is delivered low to The Mailman. Jordan, now in perfect position, sneaks from his blind side, slaps the ball away, pokes the loose ball a second time, and takes possession himself.

You know it from here. Michael looks at the clock as he calmly dribbles down the court and winds down the time, then breaks Russels ankles and splashes the short jumper, game winning jumper, championship winning jumper, hand raised in the air as if time itself had stopped.

In those last 41 seconds, Game 6 of the NBA Finals, on the road in a hostile environment, down 3, not a single Chicago Bull touched the basketball other than Michael Jordan. Not only on offense, but on the other side of the court as well, even though the ball never went to the man he was guarding.

You're right, dude was a straight choke artist late. ;-)

That right there's called going psycho, like Michael, take your pick...

Tyson.

Jackson.

Jordan, Game 6!

 

[CaneOil]

You tell me all I need to know when you say you quit really watching in 91, @CaneOil

So you're basically judging Michael on his level of greatness by looking at only the period he was wearing cursive lettering on his jersey and rocking a gold chain while facing several of the greatest teams to ever exist with nothing but a handful dudes from the local Y for teammates. Yes, Chicago struggled mightily during that time period because the team around him was straight trash. Worth noting, he also took that trash team into the playoffs. Was Bird (one of THE greatest offensive players to ever hold a basketball) able to work over a young Michael? Yep. Bird worked over a lot of dudes in his career. No shame in that whatsoever. Bird also went into every game against Mike with about a 5 vs 0 ratio of hall of famers around him.

But Mike stayed in Chicago, worked with what they gave him, and from the moment you quit following, Michael lead his Bulls to 6 straight titles in 6 straight attempts and was downright spectacular in all of those playoffs. IMO, if his dad hadnt been murdered and he didn't step away from the game, it would have been 8 in a row.

So yeah, you kinda missed out on the part of Mike's career that makes him GOAT for most.

I'm judging him on what I personally saw. It was close to half his carer that he choked. He had plenty of chances to win big games but Choked go back and watch the games. Now he played with kids from the Y, LMAO it keeps on getting better. Bird worked Jordan over when he was at his peak, 37.1 and 35 PPG. Now you're reaching. He was at his peak scoring years when they were working him over. You're right I've never seen a player that could stop Bird, Jabbar was even a bigger nightmare to stop when he got ****ed off even as an old player. I've seen it, that sky hook was the most unstoppable shot by any player ever.

Like many have said they changed the game to fit Jordan in the 90's. He couldn't win the way they played in the 80's. Yup he won 6 straight against inferior teams and players. All the best tough players were retired, injured or old. Bill Russel won 11 I guess you think he is better than Jordan, right?

Old HOF's are not the same as in their peak. Bird made other players better, Jordan didn't do that. There wasn't a shot he didn't like, but that's the real reason he lost all the time against Boston.

I never said he wasn't a great player, I've said from the start he isn't the greatest to ever play the game. He never beat the best players or teams. The real game doesn't start until the 4th Quarter the best players realized that and played their best at that time. Jordan didn't! Go watch how loose the Celtics played against Jordan early on when he got most of his points. When the game was on the line they played D and he'd make his bad shots and mistakes even at his peak 3 years in. I'd imagine you weren't old enough to appreciate how great the 80's teams really were compared to the 90's teams and the rest. Much tougher generation, much much tougher than now. A much better game in the 80's too.

You really think Jordan could beat Magic Bird or KAJ one on one? That would be an *** kicking you Jordan lovers would hate to see.

 

[CaneOil]

You keep talking about Jordan being known for choking late in games. It's so strange; honestly, it's some alternate universe sh-t, my man. I think you really need to go watch how games ended for Chicago between 1991 and 1998.

Again I saw him for the first half of his Career and on and off after that. Liked watching shaq and the great shooting guard from Golden state. I watched BB but not to the extent I did in the 80's when I went to every big game in the Boston Garden. Yes Jordan did better when the game changed for him. He also played better without the best player on the other side.

 

[CaneOil]

That right there's called going psycho, like Michael, take your pick...

Tyson.

Jackson.

Jordan, Game 6!

Game 6 against the Celtics? Nah the Celtics swept his *** in both playoffs. Jordan never beat the best, he beat what was left over years later.

 

[CaneOil]

Down 3, Phil tells Mike he must score quickly to guarantee another posession. Instructs him he has 12 seconds.

Mike takes the inbounds and "drives right, hangs left, scores easily, wow" as he goes 1 vs all... and does so in FOUR seconds.

Other side of court. Stockton and Malone set up their post magic. Michael reads it, literally abandons his man and allows him to go out wide unmarked (Hornacek, one of the purest shooters of the time) because he had a 6th sense like that.

Ball is delivered low to The Mailman. Jordan, now in perfect position, sneaks from his blind side, slaps the ball away, pokes the loose ball a second time, and takes possession himself.

You know it from here. Michael looks at the clock as he calmly dribbles down the court and winds down the time, then breaks Russels ankles and splashes the short jumper, game winning jumper, championship winning jumper, hand held raised in the air as if time itself had stopped.

In those last 41 seconds, Game 6 of the NBA Finals, on the road in a hostile environment, down 3, not a single Chicago Bull touched the basketball other than Michael Jordan. Not only on offense, but on the other side of the court as well, even though the ball never went to the man he was guarding.

You're right, dude was a straight choke artist late. ;-)

''IMO, the greatest single sequence in the history of the sport is the final 41 secs of Jazz/Bulls Game 6 in 1998.''

Kind of like this one? lol Bird made great game winning plays all the time. Might be the biggest clutch player in history.

 

[CaneOil]

I told you Chicago wasn't even close to being the biggest game, they didn't even take Jordan seriously. watch the 6:40 minute mark. Even a drunk hung over Bird beat Jordan. lol Watch the 9:22 mark too Jason Williams is funny as ****.

 

[KevinCaneFace]

I'm judging him on what I personally saw. It was close to half his carer that he choked. He had plenty of chances to win big games but Choked go back and watch the games. Now he played with kids from the Y, LMAO it keeps on getting better. Bird worked Jordan over when he was at his peak, 37.1 and 35 PPG. Now you're reaching. He was at his peak scoring years when they were working him over. You're right I've never seen a player that could stop Bird, Jabbar was even a bigger nightmare to stop when he got ****ed off even as an old player. I've seen it, that sky hook was the most unstoppable shot by any player ever.

Like many have said they changed the game to fit Jordan in the 90's. He couldn't win the way they played in the 80's. Yup he won 6 straight against inferior teams and players. All the best tough players were retired, injured or old. Bill Russel won 11 I guess you think he is better than Jordan, right?

Old HOF's are not the same as in their peak. Bird made other players better, Jordan didn't do that. There wasn't a shot he didn't like, but that's the real reason he lost all the time against Boston.

I never said he wasn't a great player, I've said from the start he isn't the greatest to ever play the game. He never beat the best players or teams. The real game doesn't start until the 4th Quarter the best players realized that and played their best at that time. Jordan didn't! Go watch how loose the Celtics played against Jordan early on when he got most of his points. When the game was on the line they played D and he'd make his bad shots and mistakes even at his peak 3 years in. I'd imagine you weren't old enough to appreciate how great the 80's teams really were compared to the 90's teams and the rest. Much tougher generation, much much tougher than now. A much better game in the 80's too.

You really think Jordan could beat Magic Bird or KAJ one on one? That would be an *** kicking you Jordan lovers would hate to see.

In the 28 games they played against each other, Jordan averaged 7 more points per game, on higher FG%, more steals, more blocks, and less turnovers. But go ahead and talk about how Larry dominated him. Larry had 5 Hall of Famers on that team while Jordan only had Pippen for the end.

 

[CaneOil]

BTW, worth noting because you tried to take away from what MJ achieved by saying they changed the rules for him.... the person you are saying is the greatest player of all time was the only 7 footer in the league at a time the game had no 3 second violation. Do you think Wilt Chamberlain would score 100pts today? Of course not. Now Wilt was a true basketball player as well, and he unquestionably belongs on the Mouth Rushmore of the NBA. But I find it ironic you lessen Michael by saying rules helped him while touting a guy who was taller than everyone and could literally just camp out under the cylinder.

Shorter than Jabbar, oh you forgot about him? LMAO I have never tried to take away what Jordan achieved. He won in the 90's when the game was changed. He also won against weaker players and teams. Go look at the facts. The 3 second violation on offense started in 1936 Son!

 

[CaneOil]

In the 28 games they played against each other, Jordan averaged 7 more points per game, on higher FG%, more steals, more blocks, and less turnovers. But go ahead and talk about how Larry dominated him. Larry had 5 Hall of Famers on that team while Jordan only had Pippen for the end.

Bird was not the same player after 88 as he was closing on the end of his time, he was old with a wrecked back and ankle. Go back to when Jordan was in his prime scoring 37.1 and 35. Bird was never a ball hog like Jordan he was a team player. Way better passer, rebounder. Jordan pretty much let the league in shots Bird was never close to him on that stat. By 88 Bird was toast with his back and ankle that's why they never won the big one again. Bird clearly was a better 3 point shooter, the same @ 2 point Clearly better at free throws. Assists Bird, rebounding Bird. We could go on all day. Jordan had many chances in close games to beat Boston and he choked in the last few minute of the games. Go back and watch the games. On offense he did dominate Jordan tried to guard him. Bird was smart enough to let the guards guard Jordan. Jordan thought he was better than he was, thought he could guard Bird. Bird was a much smarter player too.

 

[CaneOil]

In the 28 games they played against each other, Jordan averaged 7 more points per game, on higher FG%, more steals, more blocks, and less turnovers. But go ahead and talk about how Larry dominated him. Larry had 5 Hall of Famers on that team while Jordan only had Pippen for the end.

I will give Jordan one thing up on Bird, he was better looking. LMAO

 

[KevinCaneFace]

Bird was not the same player after 88 as he was closing on the end of his time, he was old with a wrecked back and ankle. Go back to when Jordan was in his prime scoring 37.1 and 35. Bird was never a ball hog like Jordan he was a team player. Way better passer, rebounder. Jordan pretty much let the league in shots Bird was never close to him on that stat. By 88 Bird was toast with his back and ankle that's why they never won the big one again. Bird clearly was a better 3 point shooter, the same @ 2 point Clearly better at free throws. Assists Bird, rebounding Bird. We could go on all day. Jordan had many chances in close games to beat Boston and he choked in the last few minute of the games. Go back and watch the games. On offense he did dominate Jordan tried to guard him. Bird was smart enough to let the guards guard Jordan. Jordan thought he was better than he was, thought he could guard Bird. Bird was a much smarter player too.

In their matchups Jordan only shot 3 more times per game at a higher FG %. Larry also only average 0.6 assists more per game. So the bunks the ball hog line. Bird got two more rebounds per game but Jordan played gaurd.

 

[CaneOil]

In their matchups Jordan only shot 3 more times per game at a higher FG %. Larry also only average 0.6 assists more per game. So the bunks the ball hog line. Bird got two more rebounds per game but Jordan played gaurd.

Post your data it would be interesting to see. In Jordans best year he he took 27.4 times per game Bird shot 20.2. If you have all the data per game against each other at their prime would be nice to see. I'd like to see data head to head it always seemed jordan took way more shots and still lost every single game I saw at the garden up till 88.

 

[CaneOil]

Jordan surely looks like one of the biggest ball hogs in history to me. https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fga_game.html

Jordan wins in this category every year. Most FGA! lol 1986-87 NBA 2279 (1st)
1987-88 NBA 1998 (1st)
1989-90 NBA 1964 (1st)
1990-91 NBA 1837 (1st)
1991-92 NBA 1818 (1st)
1992-93 NBA 2003 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 1850 (1st)
1996-97 NBA 1892 (1st)
1997-98 NBA 1893 (1st)

 

[KevinCaneFace]

Post your data it would be interesting to see. In Jordans best year he he took 27.4 times per game Bird shot 20.2. If you have all the data per game against each other at their prime would be nice to see. I'd like to see data head to head it always seemed jordan took way more shots and still lost every single game I saw at the garden up till 88.

Player	G	W	L	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Larry Bird	28	17	11	28	39.4	11.0	22.1	.498	0.8	1.8	.469	4.1	4.4	.927	1.4	7.2	8.6	6.4	1.4	0.9	3.2	2.8	26.9
Michael Jordan	28	11	17	27	38.1	12.8	25.3	.506	0.4	1.3	.306	7.4	8.5	.870	1.6	4.5	6.1	5.8	2.7	1.1	2.7	3.1	33.5

Here's their head to head stats from the 28 games they played according to basketball-reference.com

So clearly Jordan put up better numbers in their matchups but Jordan choked because his team lost? Their was FIVE Hall of Famers on that Celtics team. Jordan missed the 85-86 season and until 1990 no other player on the Bulls averaged more than 14 points per game

 

[rok]

I actually really liked that Knicks team. My wife (NY Italian) loved that team and we lived in Miami at the time so we watched (or went to) all of those games. Some of the best NBA series in history, IMO. Heart breaking for the Heat tho. Jeez.

Those were brutal outcomes for Heat fans but the rivalry was top notch. Terrible pain was endured but it made winning in 2006 feel like sweet redemption. Heat fans definitely paid their dues leading up to that first title.

 

[CaneOil]

In their matchups Jordan only shot 3 more times per game at a higher FG %. Larry also only average 0.6 assists more per game. So the bunks the ball hog line. Bird got two more rebounds per game but Jordan played gaurd.

Found it. Those figures include the 4 years after 88 where Jordan pretty much dominated the old broken bird. lol At their peak the scoring for pretty even and 3 point shooting not even close for Bird. Free throw % not even close for Bird of course Jordan had a few more point he shot it more. Jordan Doubled up on free throws Attempted. beat Jordan on rebounds. Beat Jordan on assists.

Player	G	W	L	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
Larry Bird	28	17	11	28	39.4	11.0	22.1	.498	0.8	1.8	.469	4.1	4.4	.927	1.4	7.2	8.6	6.4	1.4	0.9	3.2	2.8	26.9
Michael Jordan	28	11	17	27	38.1	12.8	25.3	.506	0.4	1.3	.306	7.4	8.5	.870	1.6	4.5	6.1	5.8	2.7	1.1	2.7	3.1	33.5

Here's their head to head stats from the 28 games they played according to basketball-reference.com

So clearly Jordan put up better numbers in their matchups but Jordan choked because his team lost? Their was FIVE Hall of Famers on that Celtics team. Jordan missed the 85-86 season and until 1990 no other player on the Bulls averaged more than 14 points per game

Most of the game jordan won were when Bird was broken lol in the last 3 years or so just like I said... Those stats head to head make it easier to say Bird was a better player when the both peaked at about the same time. Then add in the playoff games that Bird swept Jordan in. Jordan in the playoffs with boston. 179 attempts Jordan. Bird 98. lol 29.8 to 16.3 Almost double any guess why he scores so much? Birds playoff % .531 Jordan .464 Rebounds and assists Bird big. About 12 points less for Bird per game but you can see why. Just shows Jordan wasn't the hero you guys think he was, the Jordan myth. Bird 6-0 against Jordan in the playoffs.

 

[CaneOil]

Jordan had plenty of chances to win some of those games when when Boston beat them 12 in a row and it the playoffs but he choked. Go back and watch the last 10 minutes of those games. You guys are saying he was the greatest player of all time I'm just showing you he clearly wasn't. Ya of course at the end he could beat an old man with a bad back and ankle who could never jump more than a ft off the ground. LMAO But at both their peaks he wasn't better.

No other player on chicago averaged more than 14 points a game how could they with Jordan taking so many shots per game? Led the league almost every year he played.