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OT: Give me some MJ!

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305to954 said:
Everybody knows this..but then you can know this then try to create the narrative that Jordan was a one man show when the rings started happening too. Not saying that’s you but I’d say 99 percent of Jordan fans don’t like to admit how good Scottie was and how much of a impact Phil’s system had on there success. That bulls 90s run wasn’t all about MJ. Scottie could drop 20 plus any night, facilitate the offense without MJ on the court and take the opposing teams best wing or back court scorer out of the game..even when MJ sat down for AB year the Bulls won 55 games and made a playoff run.

All the greats needed others around them to achieve team success
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Well Scottie is my favorite player, so you have no arguments from me. Til this day, when I play 2K and create a player, I mold him around the skill set of Pip. But Scottie will tell you, MJ helped him a lot. Pip had skills, but MJ pushed him hard and worked w/ him.
 
Rellyrell said:
Young guys. Boy I love you all.

Fortunately for me, I'm not an old head that's going to wag it's finger at you.

So check it out, my g....let me educate you a bit:

The NBA rosters today are filled with guys who are definitely more skilled. The NBA rosters of tomorrow are going to filled with guys more skilled than those of today, and the NBA rosters 30 yrs from now are going to be filled with guys more skilled than guys of tomorrow. That's how evolution works. There will be more data to go by and expand upon.

Why are big men better at shooting 3's today than yesterday? Well, b/c big men were taught all their lives to go down in the post, and if you were caught dead shooting anywhere from outside of 10-12 feet, you were being benched and chewed out. The jump shot was for the "little guys." Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing started to develop the 15-18 ft jump game, which was absolutely unheard of for a guy who was 6'10 and above. Then some guys from Europe came over to the NBA...Detlef Schrempf, Arvydas Sabonis, Vlade Divac...guys who were over 6'10 but they running fast breaks, passing, and shooting 3's. They evolved the game for big men, eventually, where big men just weren't some post up monsters, but they could shoot the ball like the little guys too.

Power forwards back in the day were considered power forwards b/c these were your enforcers. These guys did the dirty work, and could score down low. Then guys like Shawn Kemp came around who ran like a deer, guys like Shereef Abdur-Rahim, guys like Kevin Garnett....guys who were considered PF based on their builds, but also could dribble and run like a SF.

The game has evolved b/c the game has changed. Jerry West would probably avg. more ppg than MJ if a 3 point arc was around. If you played ball from the 50-70's, you would be absolutely reamed around the neck from taking a long shot b/c it was of no value. A two pointer was a two pointer. So shooting from distance was designed for the guy who wasn't quick enough or athletic enough to hit rim. Guys like MJ, Magic, Dr J, Zeke, etc grew up where if you were a guard, you go to the hole. So even w/ the induction of the 3 pt arc in the 80's, for 20 yrs of their life, they were taught to go to the hole. Reggie Miller was the first superstar to really exploit and make the 3 pt cool. Even Bird preferred the mid range game although he could shoot it out the gym.

My point is, of course guys are going to be more skilled today b/c there's more data, more nutrition, more regimens, more camps, more film and examples to build upon. BUT skill does not mean, better. Today, if you are fortunate, your team runs about 2-3 stars deep, AT MOST. Back in the day, at any given time you would find 2-3 HOFers playing together, with another 2-3 all stars on the bench. Today, scoring 110 is a high scoring game: In 1983 Detroit v. Denver (186 - 184 final score). The highest mark in NBA history. Detroit in '83 avg. 117 ppg, and Denver in '83 avg. 123 ppg. Why? B/c roster 1 - 9 could all play ball. Guys weren't about the cross over, or doing it for the SC Top 10.....it was about putting the ball in the hole and letting you know I'm better than you. It was a badge of honor to be in the slam dunk competition as a super star, but now guys are too cool for that, afraid to face embarrassment. And that's the difference....your superstars today are too afraid to face adversity. They run at first sight of it. Guys like Kobe, A.I., RW, Tim Duncan will always be held to the same esteem as the 80's and 90's players b/c they stayed the course. So skill is just one part of it....if you ain't got that lion's heart, then who gives af about skill.
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Skill in basketball definitely correlates to better..now there’s mofos in the league today shooting 3s who have no business shooting 3s..we can agree on that. But I’m not talking those nigas..I’m talking about the cream of the league when it comes to size and skilll..the KDs, lebrons, dirks, Kawhis, pg, porzingis, luka, KAT, joker..the top guys today are more skilled, stronger, at the same sizes as PF from the 80s/90 (who were enforcing cause they had no skills) AND all of those guys you can put in a 90 offense and they still thrive all the same...imo, and even past greats who played in the 90s have said, what these guys can do today, guys from that era weren’t capable of doing. You can call it the evolution of the game witch is most definitely true...it’s just laughable when ppl try to **** on the new era to make the 90s and 2000s basketball some nostalgic era..then U bring up A.I who is my 2nd favorite player but wasn’t nobody scared to step to him..wasn’t nobody scared of Kobe. Lebron came up in that 2000s era, thrived against kobe, ai, tmac, Garnett, Tim..KD beat the spurs as a pup and went blow for blow against Kobe..I’m old enough to remember ppl questioning Kobe’s heart, Kobe demanding a trade on quite frankly,ppl questioning Ai in big games, questioning why Garnett never had playoff success until he waived his no Trade clause in order to get to Boston....20 years from now when a young kill tells me about the new cats killing it I’m not gonna **** on those guys in order to make this current era look better
 
Rellyrell said:
Well Scottie is my favorite player, so you have no arguments from me. Til this day, when I play 2K and create a player, I mold him around the skill set of Pip. But Scottie will tell you, MJ helped him a lot. Pip had skills, but MJ pushed him hard and worked w/ him.
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No doubt. They, including Phil and the rest of those guys made that run together..there’s only two players ive ever seen make a playoff run to the NBA finals as the only go to scorer, offensive facilitator and without a consistent 2nd option. that’s Lebron twice and Allen iverson..AI did it in 01 with nothing but defensive type players around him and took out a prime vince/young tmac and a bucks team that was nice . Lebron ran through the Gil arenas and a good wiz squad and the pistons in 07 then in 18 that last year with the cavs with K love in and out the lineup and inconsistent
 
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Rellyrell said:
U act like MJ didn’t play against Magic, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq, Mutumbo, Ewing, Robinson, Kareem, Parish...Lol.

MJ’s highest playoff game performance & NBA record til this day was against the dominant Boston team in the mid 80’s! Lol. What r u talking about?

The Jordan Rule wasn’t a rule by the NBA; it was a rule by The Detroit Pistons which was beat his *** up every time he drives the lane. Then the following yr, the Jordan Rule no longer applied, b/c he got bigger & stronger and the physical contact no longer worked, so they aimed at Pippen. Once Pippen got bigger & stronger the NBA was forever in the grasp of Chicago during the 90’s.

In today’s NBA where Big Men rather shoot 3’s, no hand checking, everything is a foul, no fast break impediment, restricted area for chargers, traveling no longer called, everybody wants to be buddy buddy, and a handful playing defense......MJ avg 40 ppg w 5 and 5 easily.
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It was a double over time game but yes at the end he choked as usual against Boston. He took a total of 62 shots counting free throws, lol. Most of the best players could have done that. My point he couldn't win in the 80's when the toughest players played.

''The Jordan Rule wasn’t a rule by the NBA; it was a rule by The Detroit Pistons which was beat his *** up every time he drives the lane.''

Yes they did, LMAO. Stay in your lane, he didn't. Jordan had Pippen against Boston and still lost. Boston got older and injured by the late 80's. Jordan was always a finesse player he wasn't meant to play in the 80's it showed. Yup MJ would score 40 today but he couldn't win in the 80's. Bird would have cleaned up in today's game he was a better 3 point shooter than Jordan. Did you ever see Jordan's 3 point challenge against Bird? LMAO In today's game if Jordan could score 40 Bird would score 50 if he ball hogged like Jordan. Jordan's 3 point percentage in 87 when they actually played D was .182 lol. Birds was .400 imagine what he would have done against the woosies that play today?
 
Rellyrell said:
Well Scottie is my favorite player, so you have no arguments from me. Til this day, when I play 2K and create a player, I mold him around the skill set of Pip. But Scottie will tell you, MJ helped him a lot. Pip had skills, but MJ pushed him hard and worked w/ him.
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Pip did have skillls just not Bird skills. The best comes last when the game is on the line, over Pip and Jordan. lol
 
This was real BB in the 80's. This is why Jordan couldn't win. When men were men not whiners. LMAO City league and the Y were just like this. Come on you old guys you know how you played back then chime in..
 
For_The_U said:
LOL! Exact same, my man. Those 90s Bulls/Knicks battles are my favorite basketball games to this day. But **** did I hate those Knicks!!

The presentation of one of those series on MJ's "Air Time" video is all time epic. I watch it several times a year. Every year. LOL
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I still do, **** them.
 
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Can you imagine being there for this? J could do things nobody ever thought of doing. Better than a championship game.
 
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CaneOil said:
This was real BB in the 80's. This is why Jordan couldn't win. When men were men not whiners. LMAO City league and the Y were just like this. Come on you old guys you know how you played back then chime in..
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Naw....I suggest you go look at the Bulls prior to and after MJ. The fact that MJ made the Bulls relevant is a feat in itself. Chicago was no where near a blue blood franchise like Boston or LAL. ****, even the 6ers had some history. The reason why Jordan didn't win is b/c Jordan had zero help, period. Unless you're going to be a team full of misfits like the Detroit Pistons in 04, no team has won a championship w/o having at least 2 stars on it. Go ask Dr. J.
 
HurricaneHauk said:
No player has won without a 2nd option so diminishing Jordan because he couldn’t win in the 80s agaiskt the Celtics and their 3 HOF or the Pistons with their HOF is a joke
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Not diminishing him at all always knew he wasn't the best player IMO. His 3 point shooting was .182 also in 86-87 season, stunk for a all star guard. They actually played Defense in the 80's. Yup he was a great athlete that could make crazy moves, many times he had bad judgement though. The NBA and Nike needed a hero so they made him one.
 
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CaneOil said:
It was a double over time game but yes at the end he choked as usual against Boston. He took a total of 62 shots counting free throws, lol. Most of the best players could have done that. My point he couldn't win in the 80's when the toughest players played.

''The Jordan Rule wasn’t a rule by the NBA; it was a rule by The Detroit Pistons which was beat his *** up every time he drives the lane.''

Yes they did, LMAO. Stay in your lane, he didn't. Jordan had Pippen against Boston and still lost. Boston got older and injured by the late 80's. Jordan was always a finesse player he wasn't meant to play in the 80's it showed. Yup MJ would score 40 today but he couldn't win in the 80's. Bird would have cleaned up in today's game he was a better 3 point shooter than Jordan. Did you ever see Jordan's 3 point challenge against Bird? LMAO In today's game if Jordan could score 40 Bird would score 50 if he ball hogged like Jordan. Jordan's 3 point percentage in 87 when they actually played D was .182 lol. Birds was .400 imagine what he would have done against the woosies that play today?
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Let me give you MJ's avg during the tough 80's:

Regular Season
84-85: 28.2 ppg on 38 mpg and with a fg% of 51 (ROOKIE YEAR)
85-86: 22.7 ppg on 25 mpg and with a fg% of 46 (injured for the entire season)
86-87: 37.1 ppg on 40 mpg and with a fg% of 48
87-88: 35.0 ppg on 40.4 mpg and with a fg% of 54
88-89: 32.5 ppg on 40.2 mpg and with a fg% of 54
89-90: 33.6 ppg on 39 mpg and with a fg% of 53

So here's what Mr. Jordan did during the tough 80's regular season:
In his 6 yrs, he lead the league in scoring 4 consecutive years
In his 6 yrs, he avg. 31.5 ppg while playing on avg. 37.1 minute per game (or 77% on the floor) on 51% shooting from the field
In his 6 yrs, he lead the league in steals twice
In his 6 yrs, he was in the top 20 for rebounds once
In his 6 yrs, he was in the top 20 for blocks twice
In his 6yrs, he lead the league in PLAYER EFFICIENCY (so stop with the notion he just shot) 4x.
In his 6yrs, he was top 5 in steal pct (meaning the amount of times he guarded you, he stole the ball) 5 of the 6 yrs
In his 6 yrs, he lead the league in offensive win shares 3x
In his 6 yrs, he lead the league in +/- efficiency rating 2x


Playoffs
84-85: 29.3 ppg on 42.8 mpg and with a fg% of 44 (ROOKIE YEAR)
85-86: 43.7 ppg on 45 mpg and with a fg% of 50 (COMING BACK FROM A BROKEN FOOT)
86-87: 35.7 ppg on 42.7 mpg and with a fg% of 42
87-88: 36.3 ppg on 42.7 mpg and with a fg% of 53
88-89: 34.8 ppg on 42.2 mpg and with a fg% of 51
89-90: 36.7 ppg on 42.1 mpg and with a fg% of 51

So here's what Mr. Jordan did during the though 80's for the playoffs:
In his 6yrs, he avg. 36 ppg on 43 mpg with a fg% of 48.5


Even though MJ got bounced from the 1st round his first 3 yrs during the 80's (which never happened again), it could be argued that Jordan's best statistical years actually came in the 80's. Those were his personal glory years.

Again, the difference was while Boston had Larry Bird, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parrish, Danny Ainge, Kevin McHale , w/ Ced Maxwell, Bill Walton as your sixth men or Lakers having Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Kareem, Michael Cooper, Bob McAdoo with Byron Scott, Jamaal Wilkes, Mike McGee as your six men.....Jordan had Wes Matthews, Orlando "Crack Head" Woolridge, Dave Greenwood, and Dave Corzine w/ Ennis Whatley as our 6th man. GTFOH.
 
CaneOil said:
Not diminishing him at all always knew he wasn't the best player IMO. His 3 point shooting was .182 also in 86-87 season, stunk for a all star guard. They actually played Defense in the 80's. Yup he was a great athlete that could make crazy moves, many times he had bad judgement though. The NBA and Nike needed a hero so they made him one.
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WHO GIVES AF ABOUT 3 PT SHOOTING WHEN I'M GETTING BUCKETS? TF??
 
Rellyrell said:
Naw....I suggest you go look at the Bulls prior to and after MJ. The fact that MJ made the Bulls relevant is a feat in itself. Chicago was no where near a blue blood franchise like Boston or LAL. ****, even the 6ers had some history. The reason why Jordan didn't win is b/c Jordan had zero help, period. Unless you're going to be a team full of misfits like the Detroit Pistons in 04, no team has won a championship w/o having at least 2 stars on it. Go ask Dr. J.
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The year before Bird 29-53 The next year 61-21. I think it was the second best turn around ever. He did it with a bunch of old players and Max. Won their division lost in Con finals. Before Jordan 27-55. Jordans first year 38-44. Before Dr J NY Nets, 30-54 After Dr J 55-29 won finals. Since you brought up the Doctor! MJ was never the greatest player of all time. lol
 
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