forums

OT: Give me some MJ!

Rellyrell said:
Here we go;

Let me ask u, who was on Boston’s squad v Jordan’s squad? Who was on Magic’s squad v. Jordan’s squad? The moment MJ got ONE running mate, chit changed. He even admitted so often he would score all these points and his team would still lose and it ate at him. He was a one man squad. It was 1 on 8. Let’s add some context to this discussion b/c I constantly hear this from Boston & Laker fans

I’m an early 80’s baby, and I saw plenty of 80’s basketball. 80’s & 90’s are the two greatest decades in NBA history. But there’s a reason y Boston & LAL dominated the 80’s.....it wasn’t just b/c of Bird & Magic....it was b/c of McHale, Parrish, Bird & DJ on one squad v Magic, Worthy, The Cap, and Coop on the other squad. These mofos had 7 HOF players between them in their starting lineup, and let’s not talk about their benches! No other team had that!
Click to expand...
Well said, Rell. It is an asinine jab. Those two teams in question are two of the greatest teams ever assembled. Period. Michael had nobody back then. 1 vs 8, just like you said.
 
Advertisement
CaneOil said:
Just a preview of what a big man does to a little man. lol Can you imagine how Jordan would do against Magic or Bird? Both would back him in and eat him up. Just like Bird did when the game was on the line.
Click to expand...


U act like MJ didn’t play against Magic, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq, Mutumbo, Ewing, Robinson, Kareem, Parish...Lol.

MJ’s highest playoff game performance & NBA record til this day was against the dominant Boston team in the mid 80’s! Lol. What r u talking about?

The Jordan Rule wasn’t a rule by the NBA; it was a rule by The Detroit Pistons which was beat his *** up every time he drives the lane. Then the following yr, the Jordan Rule no longer applied, b/c he got bigger & stronger and the physical contact no longer worked, so they aimed at Pippen. Once Pippen got bigger & stronger the NBA was forever in the grasp of Chicago during the 90’s.

In today’s NBA where Big Men rather shoot 3’s, no hand checking, everything is a foul, no fast break impediment, restricted area for chargers, traveling no longer called, everybody wants to be buddy buddy, and a handful playing defense......MJ avg 40 ppg w 5 and 5 easily.
 
Come back and take your poison @CaneOil we are waiting for you!!!!

LOL I kid, I kid. I enjoy the discussion... though disclaimer to all, I can get quite worked up about by man MJ! lol
 
For_The_U said:
This whole topic is just a debate of personal opinions, of course. But "Jordan always choked"? What?!? Widely considered the most clutch player to ever play the game. You go down a list of his greatest games and about 90% of them are in the playoffs (most are in the Finals). That speaks volumes. Has there EVER been a player in the game's history you wanted the ball in the hands more with a few ticks left down one than Mike? I surely don't think so, and I believe I'd be firmly in the majority on that.

I grew up watching those great Lakers teams and those great Celtics teams. My father loved Larry like I loved Michael. I have immense appreciation for those greats, but none of them are quite like Michael Jordan, IMO. And even if (I've said this quote for 20 years and now it's a "when" not an if at this point) there is a more talented basketball player, it will be hard for any player to ever match the Hollywood-esque story arch of Michael Jordan's career. I mean things like him retiring because his father is murdered, only to return and win his next title... on Father's Day. Dunking on a tiny guard and having a heckler yell "Hey Michael, why don't you pick on someone your own size!".... only to dunk the ball right down the throat of Tree Rollins the next time down the court, returning to ask that heckler "Was that one big enough?". Cheesy stuff, I know, but that's all part of Mike's legacy. If you wrote his story in Hollywood, there are aspects that would be rejected as not realistic enough. All of that wraps into Michael Jordan's lore and makes his legacy a tough one to live up to, fair or not.

You jab at Michael for losing a bunch to Boston early in his career. LOL Really? Do you need to go back and look at those rosters? I watched all of those games as well. That Celtics team was one of the greatest TEAMS to ever play the game. Fact. And they were loaded with some greats of the era. Can you name me one other player off those 86-era Chicago teams? Most people couldn't. The only reason Chicago was even in that playoff game where he dumped 63 in the Garden was because of Michael Jordan (or "God disguised as Michael Jordan" as the great Larry Bird put it). Same with Detroit. It is laughable how much better those Bad Boy teams were than those early Chicago squads. Downright laughable. But unlike modern stars, Mike didn't bolt to go hookup with Clyde and 'Nique to get over the hump, he gritted his teeth and carried his teammates over that mountain himself. It's mind boggling to me that you use those early Chicago teams/defeats as a jab at Michael. If anything, they are building blocks on the bottom floor of what makes MJ, MJ.

Another fact: in an era dominated by big men, Michael went his entire career, and achieved all he did as a team, without ever playing with a dominant big man. Not once. What would Michael have done if he had a center alongside him like Ewing or even Parrish that the D had to focus on? It's hard to even wrap your mind around that. Instead, he had Curt Livingston, Will Purdue and Bill Cartwright.

But again, to each their own on this topic.
Click to expand...
Jordan wouldn’t have thrived with a Bigman imo. Not like he did with 33. Scottie was the perfect fit along side Jordan. Scottie if he wasn’t scoring or facilitating was still a dominant defender on the wing. 2nd best two way wing of that 90s era. A big like grant/Cartwright was the perfect fit alongside Jordan because in that era he was a floor spacer. And those Jordan’s bigs weren’t offensive post threats, but he always had a 7footer on that roster. Lastly the only big who dominated the era as arguably the best player was Hakeem. Why? Because of the backcourts he played with..the best teams always had either a dominant backcourt or a elite wing scorer..bigmen always need Good to great guard play in order to have team success..mike didn’t bolt to go link up with better players because he got linked with the 2nd best 2way wing of that era and the greatest coach to ever do it. Jordan, like the greats before or after him, wasn’t having team success without pieces around him...what would Jordan have done if you replace Scottie with Ewing ? Not go 6 for 6
 
Advertisement
For_The_U said:
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Not exact same at all then, my man. LOL You know, I wondered why you included Charles Smith. Man, I despised Starks! And there was another half dozen players on those squads I hated equally as much. Smith would not have been high on that list. Now you post makes a lot more sense. ;-)

Poor Patrick will have written on his grave stone "I would have a bunch of championship rings if not for Michael Jordan".
Click to expand...
If Starks makes some FTs...and Smith makes a Put back...Knicks Win that series
 
305to954 said:
Jordan wouldn’t have thrived with a Bigman imo. Not like he did with 33. Scottie was the perfect fit along side Jordan. Scottie if he wasn’t scoring or facilitating was still a dominant defender on the wing. 2nd best two way wing of that 90s era. A big like grant/Cartwright was the perfect fit alongside Jordan because in that era he was a floor spacer. And those Jordan’s bigs weren’t offensive post threats, but he always had a 7footer on that roster. Lastly the only big who dominated the era as arguably the best player was Hakeem. Why? Because of the backcourts he played with..the best teams always had either a dominant backcourt or a elite wing scorer..bigmen always need Good to great guard play in order to have team success..mike didn’t bolt to go link up with better players because he got linked with the 2nd best 2way wing of that era and the greatest coach to ever do it. Jordan, like the greats before or after him, wasn’t having team success without pieces around him...what would Jordan have done if you replace Scottie with Ewing ? Not go 6 for 6
Click to expand...
Very intelligent post. Excellent point re Cartwright and the way he spaced the floor.

I'm not saying a center like Ewing INSTEAD of Pippen (I couldn't agree more with you that Scottie was an absolutely picture perfect pairing for Michael, and that they needed each other), but what if they had a dominant center like that IN ADDITION to Pippen? Mind blown!
 
Last edited:
Rellyrell said:
Here we go;

Let me ask u, who was on Boston’s squad v Jordan’s squad? Who was on Magic’s squad v. Jordan’s squad? The moment MJ got ONE running mate, chit changed. He even admitted so often he would score all these points and his team would still lose and it ate at him. He was a one man squad. It was 1 on 8. Let’s add some context to this discussion b/c I constantly hear this from Boston & Laker fans

I’m an early 80’s baby, and I saw plenty of 80’s basketball. 80’s & 90’s are the two greatest decades in NBA history. But there’s a reason y Boston & LAL dominated the 80’s.....it wasn’t just b/c of Bird & Magic....it was b/c of McHale, Parrish, Bird & DJ on one squad v Magic, Worthy, The Cap, and Coop on the other squad. These mofos had 7 HOF players between them in their starting lineup, and let’s not talk about their benches! No other team had that!
Click to expand...
Everybody knows this..but then you can know this then try to create the narrative that Jordan was a one man show when the rings started happening too. Not saying that’s you but I’d say 99 percent of Jordan fans don’t like to admit how good Scottie was and how much of a impact Phil’s system had on there success. That bulls 90s run wasn’t all about MJ. Scottie could drop 20 plus any night, facilitate the offense without MJ on the court and take the opposing teams best wing or back court scorer out of the game..even when MJ sat down for AB year the Bulls won 55 games and made a playoff run.

All the greats needed others around them to achieve team success
 
For_The_U said:
Very intelligent post. Excellent point re Cartwright and the way he spaced the floor.

I'm not saying a center like Ewing INSTEAD of Pippin (I couldn't agree more with you that Scottie was an absolutely picture perfect pairing for Michael, and that they needed each other), but what if they had a dominant center like that IN ADDITION to Pippin? Mind blown!
Click to expand...
I still think they were better off with the bigs they had because they stretched the floor and gave Scottie and Mj space on the wings. A dominant paint scorer, if featured would’ve eaten up space imo. Dominant Bigs need touches more than anything with snipers around them at the 1-4...I’d rather have a team with MJ, and Scottie on the ball/off on the wings with a shooter at the point (Armstrong/paxon/kerr) a stretch 4(tony ku, grant) and a paint defender/rebounder
 
Advertisement
Who remembers this moment...

E7D8E512-E5EF-4493-92F9-16CBE5A73168.jpeg
 
Rellyrell said:
U act like MJ didn’t play against Magic, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq, Mutumbo, Ewing, Robinson, Kareem, Parish...Lol.

MJ’s highest playoff game performance & NBA record til this day was against the dominant Boston team in the mid 80’s! Lol. What r u talking about?

The Jordan Rule wasn’t a rule by the NBA; it was a rule by The Detroit Pistons which was beat his *** up every time he drives the lane. Then the following yr, the Jordan Rule no longer applied, b/c he got bigger & stronger and the physical contact no longer worked, so they aimed at Pippen. Once Pippen got bigger & stronger the NBA was forever in the grasp of Chicago during the 90’s.

In today’s NBA where Big Men rather shoot 3’s, no hand checking, everything is a foul, no fast break impediment, restricted area for chargers, traveling no longer called, everybody wants to be buddy buddy, and a handful playing defense......MJ avg 40 ppg w 5 and 5 easily.
Click to expand...
bruh..Players today are way more skilled now then back then..it’s not close. Don’t gotta try to belittle what guys can and are doing in this era to make Jordan look godly..he’s top 2 for me if we not counting bigs..the game was played a snails pace, every offensive action was inside the 3point line..the favorite play was side pick n rolls below the free throw line🤣🤣..that play is dead in today’s game..yea the game was more physical cause cats couldn’t shoot..you ever watched a ymca 40 and over league..that’s the perfect duplication of 90s basketball..it’s crazy when ppl bring up size n physical play like nigas was regularly tackling each other lol..think about this you put steph, kyrie, dam lilard in that era and they are considered bigger point guards..Jordan was 6’6 195 -205 and considered a dominant physical player at his position..you put any of the current top 5 players today in that era with their skill level and I 1000% guarantee they games don’t fall off..even with “hand checking”..if hand check didn’t bother Mahmoud Abdul then I doubt it would bother top skill guys in this era
 
Advertisement
For_The_U said:
This whole topic is just a debate of personal opinions, of course. But "Jordan always choked"? What?!? Widely considered the most clutch player to ever play the game. You go down a list of his greatest games and about 90% of them are in the playoffs (most are in the Finals). That speaks volumes. Has there EVER been a player in the game's history you wanted the ball in the hands more with a few ticks left down one than Mike? I surely don't think so, and I believe I'd be firmly in the majority on that.

I grew up watching those great Lakers teams and those great Celtics teams. My father loved Larry like I loved Michael. I have immense appreciation for those greats, but none of them are quite like Michael Jordan, IMO. And even if (I've said this quote for 20 years and now it's a "when" not an if at this point) there is a more talented basketball player, it will be hard for any player to ever match the Hollywood-esque story arch of Michael Jordan's career. I mean things like him retiring because his father is murdered, only to return and win his next title... on Father's Day. Dunking on a tiny guard and having a heckler yell "Hey Michael, why don't you pick on someone your own size!".... only to dunk the ball right down the throat of Tree Rollins the next time down the court, returning to ask that heckler "Was that one big enough?". Cheesy stuff, I know, but that's all part of Mike's legacy. If you wrote his story in Hollywood, there are aspects that would be rejected as not realistic enough. All of that wraps into Michael Jordan's lore and makes his legacy a tough one to live up to, fair or not.

You jab at Michael for losing a bunch to Boston early in his career. LOL Really? Do you need to go back and look at those rosters? I watched all of those games as well. That Celtics team was one of the greatest TEAMS to ever play the game. Fact. And they were loaded with some greats of the era. Can you name me one other player off those 86-era Chicago teams? Most people couldn't. The only reason Chicago was even in that playoff game where he dumped 63 in the Garden was because of Michael Jordan (or "God disguised as Michael Jordan" as the great Larry Bird put it). Same with Detroit. It is laughable how much better those Bad Boy teams were than those early Chicago squads. Downright laughable. But unlike modern stars, Mike didn't bolt to go hookup with Clyde and 'Nique to get over the hump, he gritted his teeth and carried his teammates over that mountain himself. It's mind boggling to me that you use those early Chicago teams/defeats as a jab at Michael. If anything, they are building blocks on the bottom floor of what makes MJ, MJ. Another fact: in an era dominated by big men, Michael went his entire career, and achieved all he did as a team, without ever playing with a dominant big man. Not once.

But again, to each their own on this topic.
Click to expand...

Birds first year in Boston he had the biggest turn around in franchise history. The second year they won a championship I laugh at that early year talk.
Jordan didn't just lose a bunch he lost for 7 years before he won anything, by then all the great players were old, Injured or retired. The 63 point game was a double overtime game, yup he played great but didn't get it done late.

This is a fun topic but you're a conservative I still love ya! You're right everyone has their great players, I have a bunch of them over Jordan in a draft though. This is what I remember the most about Jordan. I moved to Florida after Bird won his last ship, his back limited him after that. The 9 minute mark is great. lol

So many stories in that old dump Boston Garden but the greatest place to watch a BB game I've ever seen. How do you pick Jordan over Jabbar, Magic, Wilt, Bird who were much better team players than Jordan. Jordan had a tougher time in the 80's because it was ruff as ****. In the 90's the game had changed to fit Jordan's style. Jordan just couldn't win against those teams. Detroit had one of the worst centers of a championship team but still beat Jordan twice.

It's easier to rate players by position. Jordan would still come in second to Magic to me. I saw both play personally many times well just about every time in Boston Garden up till 88 or so. I'm talking about how they played at peak obviously Jordan played better for longer. Magic was on another level with passing. I loved his game great team player.
 
CaneOil said:
Birds first year in Boston he had the biggest turn around in franchise history. The second year they won a championship I laugh at that early year talk.
Jordan didn't just lose a bunch he lost for 7 years before he won anything, by then all the great players were old, Injured or retired. The 63 point game was a double overtime game, yup he played great but didn't get it done late.

This is a fun topic but you're a conservative I still love ya! You're right everyone has their great players, I have a bunch of them over Jordan in a draft though. This is what I remember the most about Jordan. I moved to Florida after Bird won his last ship, his back limited him after that. The 9 minute mark is great. lol

So many stories in that old dump Boston Garden but the greatest place to watch a BB game I've ever seen. How do you pick Jordan over Jabbar, Magic, Wilt, Bird who were much better team players than Jordan. Jordan had a tougher time in the 80's because it was ruff as ****. In the 90's the game had changed to fit Jordan's style. Jordan just couldn't win against those teams. Detroit had one of the worst centers of a championship team but still beat Jordan twice.

It's easier to rate players by position. Jordan would still come in second to Magic to me. I saw both play personally many times well just about every time in Boston Garden up till 88 or so. I'm talking about how they played at peak obviously Jordan played better for longer. Magic was on another level with passing. I loved his game great team player.
Click to expand...

Lmaoo..for one magic played PG..Jordan played SG and SF..next bird was great..but he doesn’t hold **** on Jordan except a jumper and passing..MJ was a better defender, scorer, athlete, finisher, dunker etc etc..bird got drafted on a Celtics team with ml Carr, Cedric maxwell, Tiny, jojo, mccadoo, and even a old *** pistol pete. So let’s not act like Boston’s roster wasn’t more then solid for a rookie Bird who was great no doubt. But his rookie year wasn’t close to MJs who had nothing around him especially when compared to the teams his was against in the East . Very similar to lebrons first 6 or 7 years..prime Jordan was better then prime magic or bird and it’s not even close..Bird not even the best Small forward of all time..and let KD comeback anywhere close to 100 KD gonna pass up Larry as the second best SF to ever lace em up
 
Advertisement
305to954 said:
Lmaoo..for one magic played PG..Jordan played SG and SF..next bird was great..but he doesn’t hold **** on Jordan except a jumper and passing..MJ was a better defender, scorer, athlete, finisher, dunker etc etc..bird got drafted on a Celtics team with ml Carr, Cedric maxwell, Tiny, jojo, mccadoo, and even a old *** pistol pete. So let’s not act like Boston’s roster wasn’t more then solid for a rookie Bird who was great no doubt. But his rookie year wasn’t close to MJs who had nothing around him especially when compared to the teams his was against in the East . Very similar to lebrons first 6 or 7 years..prime Jordan was better then prime magic or bird and it’s not even close..Bird not even the best Small forward of all time..and let KD comeback anywhere close to 100 KD gonna pass up Larry as the second best SF to ever lace em up
Click to expand...
Give me George Gervin at Small Foward
 
305to954 said:
Over who??? Smh you must be crazy lmao..ice man aka ‘KD with no jumper’ ...did he have a jumper after 15 ft? ..he the finger roll king but he not even the greatest player in his franchises history
Click to expand...
He was unstoppable from 12ft in....
 
305to954 said:
bruh..Players today are way more skilled now then back then..it’s not close. Don’t gotta try to belittle what guys can and are doing in this era to make Jordan look godly..he’s top 2 for me if we not counting bigs..the game was played a snails pace, every offensive action was inside the 3point line..the favorite play was side pick n rolls below the free throw line🤣🤣..that play is dead in today’s game..yea the game was more physical cause cats couldn’t shoot..you ever watched a ymca 40 and over league..that’s the perfect duplication of 90s basketball..it’s crazy when ppl bring up size n physical play like nigas was regularly tackling each other lol..think about this you put steph, kyrie, dam lilard in that era and they are considered bigger point guards..Jordan was 6’6 195 -205 and considered a dominant physical player at his position..you put any of the current top 5 players today in that era with their skill level and I 1000% guarantee they games don’t fall off..even with “hand checking”..if hand check didn’t bother Mahmoud Abdul then I doubt it would bother top skill guys in this era
Click to expand...

Young guys. Boy I love you all.

Fortunately for me, I'm not an old head that's going to wag it's finger at you.

So check it out, my g....let me educate you a bit:

The NBA rosters today are filled with guys who are definitely more skilled. The NBA rosters of tomorrow are going to filled with guys more skilled than those of today, and the NBA rosters 30 yrs from now are going to be filled with guys more skilled than guys of tomorrow. That's how evolution works. There will be more data to go by and expand upon.

Why are big men better at shooting 3's today than yesterday? Well, b/c big men were taught all their lives to go down in the post, and if you were caught dead shooting anywhere from outside of 10-12 feet, you were being benched and chewed out. The jump shot was for the "little guys." Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing started to develop the 15-18 ft jump game, which was absolutely unheard of for a guy who was 6'10 and above. Then some guys from Europe came over to the NBA...Detlef Schrempf, Arvydas Sabonis, Vlade Divac...guys who were over 6'10 but they running fast breaks, passing, and shooting 3's. They evolved the game for big men, eventually, where big men just weren't some post up monsters, but they could shoot the ball like the little guys too.

Power forwards back in the day were considered power forwards b/c these were your enforcers. These guys did the dirty work, and could score down low. Then guys like Shawn Kemp came around who ran like a deer, guys like Shereef Abdur-Rahim, guys like Kevin Garnett....guys who were considered PF based on their builds, but also could dribble and run like a SF.

The game has evolved b/c the game has changed. Jerry West would probably avg. more ppg than MJ if a 3 point arc was around. If you played ball from the 50-70's, you would be absolutely reamed around the neck from taking a long shot b/c it was of no value. A two pointer was a two pointer. So shooting from distance was designed for the guy who wasn't quick enough or athletic enough to hit rim. Guys like MJ, Magic, Dr J, Zeke, etc grew up where if you were a guard, you go to the hole. So even w/ the induction of the 3 pt arc in the 80's, for 20 yrs of their life, they were taught to go to the hole. Reggie Miller was the first superstar to really exploit and make the 3 pt cool. Even Bird preferred the mid range game although he could shoot it out the gym.

My point is, of course guys are going to be more skilled today b/c there's more data, more nutrition, more regimens, more camps, more film and examples to build upon. BUT skill does not mean, better. Today, if you are fortunate, your team runs about 2-3 stars deep, AT MOST. Back in the day, at any given time you would find 2-3 HOFers playing together, with another 2-3 all stars on the bench. Today, scoring 110 is a high scoring game: In 1983 Detroit v. Denver (186 - 184 final score). The highest mark in NBA history. Detroit in '83 avg. 117 ppg, and Denver in '83 avg. 123 ppg. Why? B/c roster 1 - 9 could all play ball. Guys weren't about the cross over, or doing it for the SC Top 10.....it was about putting the ball in the hole and letting you know I'm better than you. It was a badge of honor to be in the slam dunk competition as a super star, but now guys are too cool for that, afraid to face embarrassment. And that's the difference....your superstars today are too afraid to face adversity. They run at first sight of it. Guys like Kobe, A.I., RW, Tim Duncan will always be held to the same esteem as the 80's and 90's players b/c they stayed the course. So skill is just one part of it....if you ain't got that lion's heart, then who gives af about skill.
 
Advertisement
Back
Top