Myth Buster: Talent or Coaching?

[crossover22[]_[]]

Here's an interesting article about the evolution of Bamas offense.

Nick Saban’s Alabama offense has an ambiguous origin myth and a striking evolution

Bruce Feldman attempts to trace the evolution of the Alabama offense to one singular moment.

theathletic.com

Basically, Saban told Kiffin he wanted to do something different with the offense and then let Kiffin figure it out. And Kiffin had the balls to p iss off Saban and get away with it. He earned a long leash because he had NFL and P5 HC experience. Is Dawson going to have that level of independence? I doubt it.

And the most interesting part to me:

“Fit the scheme to the athlete, not the other way around. That was the biggest lesson learned there. Get out of your ways and get into whatever works for the player.”

We know with 100% certainty that Cristobal did not fit the scheme to the athletes last season. This is indisputable. So if he learned so much from Saban, why did he force the bro-style offense onto the players last season ? (Gattis basically ran the same Joe Moorehead offense that Cristobal had at Oregon, so it's obvious that Cristobal went to his comfort zone). He has been a HC for around a decade, so he doesn't get to use the excuse that a first year coach can use of "learning on the job what works and what doesn't."

 

[Number1CanesFan]

Here's an interesting article about the evolution of Bamas offense.

Nick Saban’s Alabama offense has an ambiguous origin myth and a striking evolution

Bruce Feldman attempts to trace the evolution of the Alabama offense to one singular moment.

theathletic.com

Basically, Saban told Kiffin he wanted to do something different with the offense and then let Kiffin figure it out. And Kiffin had the balls to p iss off Saban and get away with it. He earned a long leash because he had NFL and P5 HC experience. Is Dawson going to have that level of independence? I doubt it.

And the most interesting part to me:

“Fit the scheme to the athlete, not the other way around. That was the biggest lesson learned there. Get out of your ways and get into whatever works for the player.”

We know with 100% certainty that Cristobal did not fit the scheme to the athletes last season. This is indisputable. So if he learned so much from Saban, why did he force the bro-style offense onto the players last season ? (Gattis basically ran the same Joe Moorehead offense that Cristobal had at Oregon, so it's obvious that Cristobal went to his comfort zone). He has been a HC for around a decade, so he doesn't get to use the excuse that a first year coach can use of "learning on the job what works and what doesn't."

All the CIS conjecture in this thread makes no sense. If Mario is the "Caveman" that many describe him to be, then why didn't he just go and hire a better version of Gattis? He didn't. He did the exact opposite, but you somehow believe he hired Dawson and his highly potent offense to put boot locks on it.

Makes no sense.

 

[TheEye]

If we can't win 8 this yr....then there's major problems.

Spoiler alert. There’s major problems.

 

[crossover22[]_[]]

Spoiler alert. There’s major problems.

Dey gon learn today!!!

 

[SWFLHurricane]

Dey gon learn today!!!

Don't need to learn anything....believe that

 

[Handsome Squidbum]

Part 2: Does The U have a South Florida problem? Development

www.stateoftheu.com

Pretty good stuff here. Look at the tackling drill video near the bottom of the page. Other than Mauigoa, nearly all the reps are garbage. Just lazy chest bumping. Where is Mr. "How you do anything is how you do everything"? Lazy reps become muscle memory. And no surprise, we see that same lazy tackling in games. This is where coaching can make a difference.

 

[KingB02]

We develop our kids to the maximum. U know why? Because they hit their cieling here and when they go to the league they are exactly who we thought they were. If u develop jags tu did your job cause that's what they are. And in the league with NFL coaching good and bad those kids still stay the same player. Also this isn't directed at you just answering that first sentence. I always thought guys were developed into what they would always be.

People used sam shield for years as an example that we were not developing. One fkin guy one. Then our guys performed trash like they did here cause it was what it was. Shaq for example got developed here he was great. But when the talent improves and he goes to the league he's a liability in space. Is he going to play as much with bigger and faster dudes? No. Unless they have no bodies at mlb.

Bro stop posting. Join a band, cause you stay blowing hot air!

No one hits their ceiling here. We could argue that most regress here! Because they all put up stats in HS and are recruited by most schools before coming here and forgetting how to play. WRs forget how to catch, LBs forget how to tackle, QBs can’t make the same throws they made since little league smh. We don’t develop a ***king thing!

 

[Dwinstitles]

Bro stop posting. Join a band, cause you stay blowing hot air!

No one hits their ceiling here. We could argue that most regress here! Because they all put up stats in HS and are recruited by most schools before coming here and forgetting how to play. WRs forget how to catch, LBs forget how to tackle, QBs can’t make the same throws they made since little league smh. We don’t develop a ***king thing!

So they forget how to play a sport they been playing for ages. It's not about how fast they are and when they make the league the others around them improve so they look worse....? Got it


So you are telling me if Duke Johnson went to bama he would be a pro bowler? Or if your statement were true all these UM players would be dominating at the NFL with real development.

So everyone we taught not to tackle the NFL coaches tried their very best to teach them how to tackle, and they just stood on an NFL roster to show the world and their team mates our ways of not tackling?

And our good ones like G15. Your telling me he statistically got worse cause of the bills coaching? Or the reality is the competition got better so he wasn't going to do things he did in the NFL because of lack of an explosive first step which we had said would happen.

 

[KingB02]

So they forget how to play a sport they been playing for ages. It's not about how fast they are and when they make the league the others around them improve so they look worse....? Got it


So you are telling me if Duke Johnson went to bama he would be a pro bowler? Or if your statement were true all these UM players would be dominating at the NFL with real development.

So everyone we taught not to tackle the NFL coaches tried their very best to teach them how to tackle, and they just stood on an NFL roster to show the world and their team mates our ways of not tackling?

And our good ones like G15. Your telling me he statistically got worse cause of the bills coaching? Or the reality is the competition got better so he wasn't going to do things he did in the NFL because of lack of an explosive first step which we had said would happen.

You don’t get to the NFL and ball out when you coasted through 3-5 years of college. The problem is not the talent of these guys, it’s the culture and coaching and policing that has been dog ish! Since the 2003 season, guys thought they could sign with The U and relax and not perfect their craft and coast to the league. And it worked for a few years but we progressively got worse. While guys at other schools are grinding day and night to make it to the next level, our guys weren’t even watching film smh. Plus our facilities were horrible. Naturally athletes progress at almost the same rate as they train together or not train as much as they should. A lot of these South Florida kids dominated in HS and didn’t even get a proper meal at night after practice. They get to college and have access to an athletic trainer and a training table for their injuries and recovery and meals and they still regress. Because the want and drive is not there. That’s on coaches and the people above for letting guys get here and lose their drive because they still get drafted. There’s always outliers like Greg R but he ain’t being used in the league how he was here. Most of his sacks came when he kicked inside on third downs.. just saying.

 

[Dwinstitles]

You don’t get to the NFL and ball out when you coasted through 3-5 years of college. The problem is not the talent of these guys, it’s the culture and coaching and policing that has been dog ish! Since the 2003 season, guys thought they could sign with The U and relax and not perfect their craft and coast to the league. And it worked for a few years but we progressively got worse. While guys at other schools are grinding day and night to make it to the next level, our guys weren’t even watching film smh. Plus our facilities were horrible. Naturally athletes progress at almost the same rate as they train together or not train as much as they should. A lot of these South Florida kids dominated in HS and didn’t even get a proper meal at night after practice. They get to college and have access to an athletic trainer and a training table for their injuries and recovery and meals and they still regress. Because the want and drive is not there. That’s on coaches and the people above for letting guys get here and lose their drive because they still get drafted. There’s always outliers like Greg R but he ain’t being used in the league how he was here. Most of his sacks came when he kicked inside on third downs.. just saying.

I agree with some of your points but the sec changed tactics after the butch era. They started getting the Patrick Peterson's etc. Of the world. U mean to tell me if pat came here he wouldn't be a first round pick because he ate happy meals? To me that's nonsense. Get the talent. I understand sh was fked up here but kids got drafted still eating bs and not watching film. And kids would always say they were watching film in the off season hype talk so who knows. These new kids will work and become studs.

 

[KingB02]

I agree with some of your points but the sec changed tactics after the butch era. They started getting the Patrick Peterson's etc. Of the world. U mean to tell me if pat came here he wouldn't be a first round pick because he ate happy meals? To me that's nonsense. Get the talent. I understand sh was fked up here but kids got drafted still eating bs and not watching film. And kids would always say they were watching film in the off season hype talk so who knows. These new kids will work and become studs.

Well yeah, guys like Pat Pete and PS2 are rare though. But you cannot get a whole bunch of guys like that as there’s just not that many to go around. My beef with you is you stay talking about we have no talent smh. We have enough talent to win our side of the division year in and year out. We always have. But we didn’t put the right things in place for that talent to succeed. Guys are not getting better here. As someone who played college football and 5 years in the CFL before a career ending knee injury, I can say college is where I really learned the game. My life was all about football and I got bigger, stronger, and faster with the training and natural progression. That’s why I say when guys come here and don’t improve that’s on our staph and faculty but also the players themselves. Not every guy is ready made.. not even Bama and UGA get many of those guys.

 

[Rellyrell]

I agree with some of your points but the sec changed tactics after the butch era. They started getting the Patrick Peterson's etc. Of the world. U mean to tell me if pat came here he wouldn't be a first round pick because he ate happy meals? To me that's nonsense. Get the talent. I understand sh was fked up here but kids got drafted still eating bs and not watching film. And kids would always say they were watching film in the off season hype talk so who knows. These new kids will work and become studs.

Bro, Young Macho da Don…

Listen, if u don’t think that going to a program can hinder or propel a player to the next level, I don’t know what to tell u. Iron sharpens iron, my man. We’ve had countless blue chips that came here & die.

I’ve literally had multiple conversations w/ NFL scouts who said they look at players from certain schools due to how they are coached, and that programs’ reputation for giving a NFL atmosphere. Once upon a time our practices were harder than game day, that’s y game day was easy. That work ethic was instilled in class after class. Despite getting highly regarded recruits, Miami became Suntan U again under Coker.

Under Shannon, we still fielded good-great defenses, but we had zero development on the offensive side of the ball. This has been a rinse & repeat cycle ever since Butch’s recruits, & the discipline, teaching he restored began to wane.

I’ve said if some of our blue chips went elsewhere, under more structure, better S&C, it would’ve been different for some of them. I still remember Tracy Howard being a solid freshman here, and then a pick 6 happened where he free lanced off of instincts got him chewed out on the sideline by D’No….my guy never recovered thereafter.

Whether it’s been bad techniques taught, egregious nutritional programs being implemented (cheese burger & pizza diets), coaches not on the same page, us vs. them (Diaz’s defense vs. Richt’s offense), The New Miami w/ slip & slides…bruh, choose one & see how that wouldn’t have a detrimental effect on a stud coming here.

I’ve seen **** poor NFL teams draft a guy, waste him; they get picked up by a solid, stabilized franchise & boom, they now go to a couple of pro bowls. Come on bruh; we can’t keep hiding behind this parroted narrative of not having talent or all these kids r bum juice; We’ve made some bad evals, sure; but, decades worth of staph infections tricked off many of these blue chips careers.

 

[Dwinstitles]

Well yeah, guys like Pat Pete and PS2 are rare though. But you cannot get a whole bunch of guys like that as there’s just not that many to go around. My beef with you is you stay talking about we have no talent smh. We have enough talent to win our side of the division year in and year out. We always have. But we didn’t put the right things in place for that talent to succeed. Guys are not getting better here. As someone who played college football and 5 years in the CFL before a career ending knee injury, I can say college is where I really learned the game. My life was all about football and I got bigger, stronger, and faster with the training and natural progression. That’s why I say when guys come here and don’t improve that’s on our staph and faculty but also the players themselves. Not every guy is ready made.. not even Bama and UGA get many of those guys.

When u don't have talent up front anyone can beat u even mid teams. That's my point. And our talent doesn't perform like it used to in the NFL because they are what they are. Bad evals is my point. Everyone falling in love with HS tape and using that in their mind to validate a player his whole career is just unrealistic and biased towards that player. Then blame all types of sh when the kid isn't Miami caliber. And UM caliber to me is Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. Yes I set the bar high for UM cause that's what I grew up watching. I see those players now at bama and OSU and UGA. Not because those teams have mythical happy meals it's because they target the talent out of HS.
And the reason even three stars look good at those schools is because they are playing with dogs that get so much attention they get to shine freely.

 

[Dwinstitles]

Bro, Young Macho da Don…

Listen, if u don’t think that going to a program can hinder or propel a player to the next level, I don’t know what to tell u. Iron sharpens iron, my man. We’ve had countless blue chips that came here & die.

I’ve literally had multiple conversations w/ NFL scouts who said they look at players from certain schools due to how they are coached, and that programs’ reputation for giving a NFL atmosphere. Once upon a time our practices were harder than game day, that’s y game day was easy. That work ethic was instilled in class after class. Despite getting highly regarded recruits, Miami became Suntan U again under Coker.

Under Shannon, we still fielded good-great defenses, but we had zero development on the offensive side of the ball. This has been a rinse & repeat cycle ever since Butch’s recruits, & the discipline, teaching he restored began to wane.

I’ve said if some of our blue chips went elsewhere, under more structure, better S&C, it would’ve been different for some of them. I still remember Tracy Howard being a solid freshman here, and then a pick 6 happened where he free lanced off of instincts got him chewed out on the sideline by D’No….my guy never recovered thereafter.

Whether it’s been bad techniques taught, egregious nutritional programs being implemented (cheese burger & pizza diets), coaches not on the same page, us vs. them (Diaz’s defense vs. Richt’s offense), The New Miami w/ slip & slides…bruh, choose one & see how that wouldn’t have a detrimental effect on a stud coming here.

I’ve seen **** poor NFL teams draft a guy, waste him; they get picked up by a solid, stabilized franchise & boom, they now go to a couple of pro bowls. Come on bruh; we can’t keep hiding behind this parroted narrative of not having talent or all these kids r bum juice; We’ve made some bad evals, sure; but, decades worth of staph infections tricked off many of these blue chips careers.

Tracy Howard had no business being a five star tbh. I hear what u saying I just disagree to a point. Howard to be dead *** honest if he was an elite level db coming out Saban would of been all over that kid. He let him walk to either UF or um cause he knew what he would get. If u ain't fast u not playing at bama.

 

[Dwinstitles]

Everyone was too busy watching UM high school targets and not seeing what the elites we're bringing in from HS. It was a different type of beast at those other schools. We not at that level yet until I start seeing some Caleb Downs types in that secondary.

 

[bacane]

You don’t get to the NFL and ball out when you coasted through 3-5 years of college. The problem is not the talent of these guys, it’s the culture and coaching and policing that has been dog ish! Since the 2003 season, guys thought they could sign with The U and relax and not perfect their craft and coast to the league. And it worked for a few years but we progressively got worse. While guys at other schools are grinding day and night to make it to the next level, our guys weren’t even watching film smh. Plus our facilities were horrible. Naturally athletes progress at almost the same rate as they train together or not train as much as they should. A lot of these South Florida kids dominated in HS and didn’t even get a proper meal at night after practice. They get to college and have access to an athletic trainer and a training table for their injuries and recovery and meals and they still regress. Because the want and drive is not there. That’s on coaches and the people above for letting guys get here and lose their drive because they still get drafted. There’s always outliers like Greg R but he ain’t being used in the league how he was here. Most of his sacks came when he kicked inside on third downs.. just saying.

Stop, you sound silly. The idea that players come here & coast for 3-5 years is insulting on so many levels. But hey, players at other programs are grinding day & night, right? Hopefully our young fellas are sleeping at night & not grinding — well, maybe shouldn’t go there.

Again, so many factors go into what a player becomes — initially over-rated or not properly evaluated, coaching & coaching changes, system & consistency within a system, injuries, mental toughness, off-field issues & influences.

Just don’t buy the idea we’re running a country club. Easy trashing kids on a message board while kids bust *** in season & off season.

 

[Rellyrell]

Tracy Howard had no business being a five star tbh. I hear what u saying I just disagree to a point. Howard to be dead *** honest if he was an elite level db coming out Saban would of been all over that kid. He let him walk to either UF or um cause he knew what he would get. If u ain't fast u not playing at bama.

I can unequivocally tell u not one Canes fan was upset or even second guessed Golden for pulling the shocker of NSD by bringing in TH3. Howard was a beast at Miramar, r u kidding me?

He was put in a gimmicky defense that took away his strengths, while highlighting his weaknesses. This is the same defense that ruined Chickillo & Chad Thomas.

Come on bruh, u’re not looking at things objectively and from a pure perspective. U’re trying to highlight that teams like Bama & UGA only win b/c of having elite talent; yet, u fail to acknowledge the infrastructure that has been built from the top down to help cultivate, & get the best out of these athletes. On that same token, u’re minimizing & trivializing just how **** poor our infrastructure has been, while excusing said issues by placing blame on the caliber of athletes we’ve recruited.

It’s true, there’s several players that had absolutely no business donning The U on the side of their helmet; they absolutely should’ve been at a lower tiered P5 school or G5 program, BUT that doesn’t escape the fact we’ve been absolutely woeful as a entire program, which is y Herbstreit (w/ the prodding of Vilma) called us out.

Any athlete will tell u ultimately things falls upon them, but coaching, scheme, development plays an absolutely huge role in getting the absolute best out of a player. U can have an elite track athlete, & he’s aligned w/ a **** poor coach or strength team that doesn’t continue to optimize their gifts or expound it further, it will be all for not.

 

[CaneSinceForEver]

I still remember Tracy Howard being a solid freshman here, and then a pick 6 happened where he free lanced off of instincts got him chewed out on the sideline by D’No….my guy never recovered thereafter.

LOL, remember when Luther Robinson got chewed out for having the audacity to get a TFL?

 

[Rellyrell]

Stop, you sound silly. The idea that players come here & coast for 3-5 years is insulting on so many levels. But hey, players at other programs are grinding day & night, right? Hopefully our young fellas are sleeping at night & not grinding — well, maybe shouldn’t go there.

Again, so many factors go into what a player becomes — initially over-rated or not properly evaluated, coaching & coaching changes, system & consistency within a system, injuries, mental toughness, off-field issues & influences.

Just don’t buy the idea we’re running a country club. Easy trashing kids on a message board while kids bust *** in season & off season.

No, u sound silly & it shows u like many other fans who don’t follow CFB as a whole, keep ur heads buried in sand or can’t face certain realities.

 

[Rellyrell]

LOL, remember when Luther Robinson got chewed out for having the audacity to get a TFL?

I remember all that chit; and I also remember TH3 having an absolute meltdown on the sidelines & Duke having to calm him down. D’No ruined a whole bunch of careers, b/c he was so **** bent on doing chit his way, even if that meant players being out of position or uncomfortable. Players couldn’t play instinctively; they had to “trust the process.”