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Here is a stat that will surprise some people

Ethnicsands said:
you can defend kehoe if you want. The last of those rings was almost 20 years ago, and he wasnt the guy who put togeher those teams. Giving kehoe credit for Howard, JJ, Dennis and Butch’s talent seems to me to be silly. Anyone who thought he was good should have tapped out during the Coker era.
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"Almost 20 years" Exactly, but that's an indictment on the whole UM program/assministration, not kehoe, how many guys has coach kehoe help to put in the nfl was the point, in all his tenures, even in Mississippi! You dont just luck up into having that many 1st round draft picks and consistently putting guys in the league. It was no coincidence that as soon as coach kehoe came back, our runningbacjs started breaking off big runs on a consistent basis again, that's part of what keeps being missed with our offenses. As soon as coach kehoe came back, it helped to bring that consistent explosion from the runningback spot.
 
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Ethnicsands said:
you can defend kehoe if you want. The last of those rings was almost 20 years ago, and he wasnt the guy who put togeher those teams. Giving kehoe credit for Howard, JJ, Dennis and Butch’s talent seems to me to be silly. Anyone who thought he was good should have tapped out during the Coker era.
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If Art Kehoe was a good coach JJ would have taken him to Dallas.
 
Every discussion eventually devolves into “you’re either elite or the worst in the world.” I don’t think D$ ever said we had elite OL talent, so you guys are arguing against ghosts.

The point of his post was to refute the idiotic chatter we’ve heard here for most of the the past 15 years where our dopey parakeet fans constantly spew the lazy TV color commentator cliches about us having no talent on the OL every time our offense tanks.

We have enough talent on the OL to produce far superior results than what we’ve seen. And that’s all anyone not looking for an endless quibble fest took from his post.
 
I for one am shocked by that stat. Perception is not reality.

My next question then becomes wtf has our OL sucked so bad in the last 15 years?
 
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Calvin said:
"Almost 20 years" Exactly, but that's an indictment on the whole UM program/assministration, not kehoe, how many guys has coach kehoe help to put in the nfl was the point, in all his tenures, even in Mississippi! You dont just luck up into having that many 1st round draft picks and consistently putting guys in the league. It was no coincidence that as soon as coach kehoe came back, our runningbacjs started breaking off big runs on a consistent basis again, that's part of what keeps being missed with our offenses. As soon as coach kehoe came back, it helped to bring that consistent explosion from the runningback spot.
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Do you think kehoe was a better OL coach han stoutland?
 
That line with Linder McDermott Henderson Feliciano was a **** good line. Too bad no D couldnt help em out.
 
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The Franchise said:
Every discussion eventually devolves into “you’re either elite or the worst in the world.” I don’t think D$ ever said we had elite OL talent, so you guys are arguing against ghosts.

The point of his post was to refute the idiotic chatter we’ve heard here for most of the the past 15 years where our dopey parakeet fans constantly spew the lazy TV color commentator cliches about us having no talent on the OL every time our offense tanks.

We have enough talent on the OL to produce far superior results than what we’ve seen. And that’s all anyone not looking for an endless quibble fest took from his post.
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I disagree. He suggested just that in the OP.

Let’s not kid each other. This debate has been going on since ‘03. There is a contingent of fan who thinks any criticism of talent diminishes criticism of coaching, and hence try to attack those who point out talent issues for apostasy to the church of coaching failure.

It’s insane and always has been. Low blood pressure and cardiac arrest go together the way **** coaches go with **** talent evals and acquisitions.

But you can’t blame others for the thread. The OP plainly suggested UM is on a par with Alabama on OL talent the past two decades. When someone defends the truth of that suggestion, it’ll be interesting. Until then, all I see is spin and retreat by folks who realize they overplayed their hand.

For the 100000th time, bad coaches tend to suck at many aspects of coaching, and ours surely did. None of Clappy, Radio, Gluten nor Pricht was good at roster management or recruiting process, planning, evals, recruiting or closing. They also sucked at bringing in talented staff. And scheme, game plan and play calling. S&C sucked. It sll sucked.
 
Ethnicsands said:
My view is you may be going past the defensible position here. Those people were not wrong that our OL stunk. We were rolling with jahair jones, hayden mahoney and jean paul gauthier. Where they were wrong, if they said it, was that that was a defense of Richt’s coaching. The OL probably wasnt as bad as it looked, because Richt ... but it was still bad! And Richt was worse than they thought, because he was causing part of the OL issues.

I 100% agree there were knuckleheads who were wrong in defending Richt, just like I believed the same thing when most of the same people defended the prior 3 corches. But that’s a separate topic. Of course there are knuckleheads on this site. But all sentient people understood that our schemes, game plans and play calling were terrible. And none of that meant that it is acceptable for this program to roll with the OL we rolled with. Keep in mind, the entire thread premise here is somehow we have had really good OL talent - on a par with Alabama’s - the past two decades. That is a flatly inaccurate view, imo, respectfully. I don’t believe a sentient person could believe that. Swagger clearly pointed out that OL are units and our few guys here or there was not part of overall talent groups that could play at Alabama.

Somewhere in the cloud there are posts from me before Richt’s first spring practice pointing out how terrible it was that his only OL signee was T. Johnson, and that I was scared ****less by him as a recruiter. Folks told me I was crazy, UGA, Sony Michel, blah blah. Except I was not crazy. And our OL and interior DL talent got ignored and poorly evaluated. We are really lucky that Golden left Richt with the DL guys he did, or Manny might not be coaching us right now.
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facts
 
real talk @Ethnicsands u been probably one of the best posters here recently always coming with truth man, sometimes I think I fall into slurping and yo *** brings me right back because what u say is true and the truth will shut my *** up 9 out of 10 times.
 
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Ethnicsands said:
I disagree. He suggested just that in the OP.

Let’s not kid each other. This debate has been going on since ‘03. There is a contingent of fan who thinks any criticism of talent diminishes criticism of coaching, and hence try to attack those who point out talent issues for apostasy to the church of coaching failure.

It’s insane and always has been. Low blood pressure and cardiac arrest go together the way ** coaches go with ** talent evals and acquisitions.

But you can’t blame others for the thread. The OP plainly suggested UM is on a par with Alabama on OL talent the past two decades. When someone defends the truth of that suggestion, it’ll be interesting. Until then, all I see is spin and retreat by folks who realize they overplayed their hand.

For the 100000th time, bad coaches tend to suck at many aspects of coaching, and ours surely did. None of Clappy, Radio, Gluten nor Pricht was good at roster management or recruiting process, planning, evals, recruiting or closing. They also sucked at bringing in talented staff. And scheme, game plan and play calling. S&C sucked. It sll sucked.
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this is what scares me cause Manny was picked by MR, the only thing that worries me.
 
Cane fans amnesia at it again saying 2016 &17 oc or schemes were the problem.how many sacks were given up just in the va tech game in 16.qb tooth getting knocked out vs fsu.how many plays during the 16 nd game showed a nd defensive lineman throwing a Miami olinemen around like rag dolls.your right that's play calling and a scheming problem.I wonder how many olinemen got drafted from that 16-17 year bunch.
 
Ethnicsands said:
Honestly, I find your post and the thought process behind it to be exactly the type of fan illogic that has stunk around this program like vomit on a drunk for the past two decades. Now you’re arguing that talking about talent somehow means you think it’s more A than B, and you’re not disagreeing that it’s A also, just you really really really want everyone to know that you really really really feel that it’s more B than A. LMAO. Which part of “IT’S BOTH A AND B” do you not understand?

Parsing whether bad coaching is more the problem than talent is like asking whether the death of a guy who falls off the empire state building is more a result of the sidewalk, or cardiac arrest. No one in their right mind has contended the coching has been anything other than atrocious for ages. I sure haven’t. To the contrary, I have been an earlier critic of all of our failed coaches than most on these boards, and probably than you yourself have been. But you seem to think white knighting the talent somehow makes you a super authentic critic of the coaching. You’re making no point worth making, and spinning bullshizzle. And in fact, you and your predecessors on this board have deluded themselves about our recruiting and talent since the Coker era, because you and they felt like super critics of coaching if you just argued the talent is ‘not an issue.’ Well, you’re wromg. It is, and has been.

Our roster talent - ESPECIALLY ON THE LOS - has been insufficient to compete at the TOP LEVEL of cfb. Don’t tell me about the coastal, because that just tells me you’re too dense to discuss this topic. No one is saying our coaching hasn’t sucked, so no one is saying we couldn’t have won the coastal. If that’s your only goal, go root for Georgia Tech. But when people start claiming our OLs have been comparable to Alabama’s, then they’re lost, imo. Not in the real world of cfb they haven’t been. Maybe in fantasy land, Jeff Stoutland and Dan Enos could turn Hayden Mahoney and Jahair Jones into all SEC players. But the other possibility is that folks who believe that are smoking crack. OLs aren’t just an expression of the one guy with future development talent on the unit. They require starters, depth, maturity, experience. And yes, S&C, coaching, scheme and play calling. We’ve had weak links galore, to the point of face plant, and we’ve had to play our best recruits too early, even burning shirts for them, for ages. Why? Because we’ve been desperate because we have lacked experienced and talented bodies on the OL for ages.

If your only point is that our results have been worse than they should have been with our talent, then congrats, you win the captain obvious award attempting to seriously present something everyone in the world knows to be obviously true.

If you believe that our talent has been sufficient to win big in cfb, then you are delusional.

All you have to do is look at our own team’s NFL results to see the talent drop off. 19 first round pics on our last title team. ZERO first round picks from ‘09 thru ‘14. But hey, guySm, the talent hasn’t gone anywhere, it’s just coaching. Blah blah.

Everyone in their right mind knows that Miami’s talent level has declined materially from our title era to the past era of crap coaches.
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Lets try to agree on a simple precept 1st. Do you at least agree that talent evaluation, acquisition, & development are all a byproduct of coaching or a lack thereof? If so..how are you able to speak with so much conviction and so easily make judgments about lack of roster talent & depth when you have already conceded the reality that MIA has been plagued by abysmal coaching for the past 20 yrs? Which is why its important to try to establish causal relationships between variables, if you are truly interested in performing an accurate root-cause analysis. Otherwise the entire argument you are attempting to put forth ends up being at best reductionist, and at worst extremely lazy. Because the premise of my argument rests on direct causation, and not correlation, it requires that I maintain specificity when discussing the variables. Simply stating the obvious by saying both A and B are contributing to the problem, is too vague to provide any type of meaningful insight into the issue. Such statements fail to interject nuance or put the discussion into proper context, while also making it extremely easy to apply a false equivalency between the variables. Your limited Empire State building analogy is an example of that because you make it seem like the difference between the two are only semantical. The bottom line is that in college football coaching & talent are not even remotely close in terms of importance. College football is predicated almost entirely on player development, which is as we've already established a byproduct of coaching. That is why I purposely tried to give you the example of Iowa: a team despite not being able to recruit even in the same ballpark, has been able to achieve on-field results that have far exceeded MIA during the same time period. Placing greater emphasis on coaching than talent, does not mean I am somehow promoting a binary choice between the two, or in your words "white knighting" talent. On the contrary I am only choosing to accept a fundamental aspect of the sport. I think even complete neophytes who know nothing about analyzing college football could understand this.

I find it odd that on one hand you are willing to accept that MIA has grossly underachieved in the last 20 yrs relative to roster talent, but at the same time you feel it's necessary to let everyone know that we've also lacked talent especially on the LOS to compete at the highest levels of CFB. How are we suppose to contend on a national scale in CFB when we can't even properly develop our players to compete in the lowly coastal division of the ACC? Do we need 19 first round draft picks to compete in the coastal? You love citing the fact that Radio's 08 recruiting class was overrated, but do you also realize that he recruited NFL pro-bowl players like Olivier Vernon, Lamar Miller, Brandon Linder, and Jimmy Graham? These are all players that ended up having far greater NFL careers than in college. To sum up:

1.) It is absolutely absurd for you to argue, one of the primary reasons why MIA has been mired in mediocrity for the past 20 yrs has been due to a lack of talent. It is ridiculous because it implies that MIA has not been squandering & under-developing/utilizing the talent it has had access to during this time period. Even if you think coaching & talent should share responsibility 50/50 ..it still proves your insanity.

2.) Despite the fact that you attempt to speak with conviction, you don't know nearly enough about talent evaluation/development to make blanket statements concerning a lack of roster talent & depth. All you're doing is speculating & assuming..that is all. It makes much more sense to talk about coaching.
 
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LuCane said:
Many, many, many people on this board. Just read the game threads and week to week feedback throughout the season. "Our OL sucks." "Things would go better if we can get a halfway decent OL." "Can't fully blame Richt because his OL is so bad." "Cant fully blame the QBs because their OL can't hold a block." And so on and so forth. There are literally dozens of examples of people on this board alone saying they're excited about Manny Diaz's energy, but "we still have to fix the OL" before we can expect to compete.

Now, if you're saying if there's any analytical person who disputes the notion, I tend to agree with you. But, I can only go by what I see here and hear outside the board. The OL shoulders a disproportionate amount of the blame and it's not even in context.
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FACTS
 
Ethnicsands said:
I disagree. He suggested just that in the OP.

Let’s not kid each other. This debate has been going on since ‘03. There is a contingent of fan who thinks any criticism of talent diminishes criticism of coaching, and hence try to attack those who point out talent issues for apostasy to the church of coaching failure.

It’s insane and always has been. Low blood pressure and cardiac arrest go together the way ** coaches go with ** talent evals and acquisitions.

But you can’t blame others for the thread. The OP plainly suggested UM is on a par with Alabama on OL talent the past two decades. When someone defends the truth of that suggestion, it’ll be interesting. Until then, all I see is spin and retreat by folks who realize they overplayed their hand.

For the 100000th time, bad coaches tend to suck at many aspects of coaching, and ours surely did. None of Clappy, Radio, Gluten nor Pricht was good at roster management or recruiting process, planning, evals, recruiting or closing. They also sucked at bringing in talented staff. And scheme, game plan and play calling. S&C sucked. It sll sucked.
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I didn’t see that suggestion in the OP. All I saw was a factual list. Then, I saw his explanation that UM fans mistakenly blame the OL talent too much for our offensive woes. He’s right.

You then read too much into his point in order to create something to argue with him about. You made some good points in your dissertations, but everyone pretty much agrees that we don’t have “elite” talent on the level of Alabaga across the board. No one is saying we do.
 
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