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Here is a stat that will surprise some people

Here are the facts, for the folks who say they like facts. I hope this puts to bed the silly idea that our overall talent or line talent has been comparable to Alabamas over the past decade.

All drafts since ‘10:

All positions:
  • Alabama has had 25 first round picks and 15 second round picks - 40 top 2 round picks
  • Miami has had 4 first round picks and 3 second round picks - 7 top 2 round picks
Specifically as to OL:
  • Alabama has had 4 first round picks and 2 second round picks - 6 top 2 round picks
  • Miami has had 1 first round pick and 1 second round pick - 2 top 2 round picks
Specifically as to DT:
  • Alabama has had 2 first round picks and 5 second rount picks - 7 top 2 round picks
  • Miami has had 0 first round picks and 0 second round picks - 0 top 2 round picks
Specifically as to OL+DT:
  • Alabama has had 6 first round picks and 7 second rount picks - 13 top 2 round picks
  • Miami has had 1 first round picks and 1 second round picks - 2 top 2 round picks
 
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Not surprising at all to me. The easiest argument to make was to see how we did worse with more talent. Examples like Nick freakin Linder leaving this OL and starting on an OL that’d perform better against a common opponent. When you see little data points like that, you begin to wonder. Then you dig in to the talent at Syracuse or Duke and fully realize OL production has way too many variables for the incredibly lazy analysis being done on them on the message board.
 
LuCane said:
Not surprising at all to me. The easiest argument to make was to see how we did worse with more more talent. Examples like Nick freakin Linder leaving this OL and start on an OL that’d perform better against a common opponnent. When you see little data points like that, you begin to wonder. Then you dig in to the talent at Syracuse or Duke and fully realize OL production has way too many variables for the incredibly lazy analysis being done on them on the message board.
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Do you think our line talent has been elite the past decade? What do you make of the data in my post immediately above yours?
 
A lot of this has to do with the casual fan having absolutely no idea how to grade OL play.

Miami's OL hasn't been nearly as bad as people claim for the past 15 years. You'd think this was 2018 FSU every year the way people talk around here. Even last year, the OL certainly wasn't good, but it wasn't nearly as bad as people think. Having 2 totally incompetent QBs running an offense so predictable it was equally comical and sad was the cause of what we saw. Not the OL.
 
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Ethnicsands said:
Do you think our line talent has been elite the past decade? What do you make of the data in my post immediately above yours?
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Elite? No. Way better than lines who've consistently performed better than our units? Hands down.

As for your data, it reflects we would have less of a chance at sustained success than Alabama. I think it's an entirely separate argument than what we consistently hear offered as excuses for why we've had less sustained success than non-Clemson teams in the ACC.
 
LuCane said:
Elite? No. Way better than lines who've consistently performed better than our units? Hands down.

As for your data, it reflects we would have less of a chance at sustained success than Alabama. I think it's an entirely separate argument than what we consistently hear offered as excuses for why we've had less sustained success than non-Clemson teams in the ACC.
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Is there anyone in the entire world who disputes the notion that UM has underachieved its talent level because of crappy coaching the past 17 years? It’s as close to a fact as opinions can be. It’s obviously true. 100000% agreed.

My point is people try so hard to make the obvious point there, they cross over into being talent denialists. We have had huge roster issues over this period. Our rosters (depth, balance, experience) have lagged our top level guys, which has hurt a lot. And overall, our talent has not been anywhere near what it was, or could have been, or should be.

If people think our talent has been fine, they will not understand our recruiting failures at all.

I have consistently said since Clappy roamed the sidelines that the issue is BOTH talent and coaching. It should be obvious that they go hand in hand. Bad coaches tend to be bad recruiters also.
 
Ethnicsands said:
Is there anyone in the entire world who disputes the notion that UM has underachieved its talent level because of crappy coaching the past 17 years? It’s as close to a fact as opinions can be. It’s obviously true. 100000% agreed.
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Many, many, many people on this board. Just read the game threads and week to week feedback throughout the season. "Our OL sucks." "Things would go better if we can get a halfway decent OL." "Can't fully blame Richt because his OL is so bad." "Cant fully blame the QBs because their OL can't hold a block." And so on and so forth. There are literally dozens of examples of people on this board alone saying they're excited about Manny Diaz's energy, but "we still have to fix the OL" before we can expect to compete.

Now, if you're saying if there's any analytical person who disputes the notion, I tend to agree with you. But, I can only go by what I see here and hear outside the board. The OL shoulders a disproportionate amount of the blame and it's not even in context.
 
Here's just one example of me answering to some people going off on the OL in a disproportionate way during the season. I've been at this for a while, but it is what it is...

80512
 
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Ethnicsands said:
LMAO @ art kehoe. His lines since the coker era were generally bad and his recruiting was mostly oh **** here’s a canadian. If this site is tryna rehabilitate Kehoe, wow. Next thing you know, people will start calling for us to bring back Swasey and Coker, followed by Dorito, Franklin, Williams and Alfraud Gluten.

Re the ‘08 class, iirc, it ended up 3 not 1, but whatever it was, it was overrated. Too many scholarships given to kids who werent well evaluated, and who didn’t end up contributing much or anything.

The worst class, though, by FAR was Coker’s ‘04 class, which was also a top 3 nationally rated class. It was the original sin disaster that cratered our roster, leading to holes and imbalances we never properly addressed over the ensuing years. 30+ kids, only 1 who was good at UM. Just a total train wreck of terrible evaluations.
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Facts are facts man, i didnt say coach kehoe was the best recruiter but his coaching resume cant be denied. But also his recruiting style was about not competing with the security & exchange commission conference for o-linemen, the bag game not strong up there in Canada. Coach kehoe turned out first rounders and draft picks consistently, and under the right headcoach, always proved his worth here. Under coach richt he would've thrived once again, it is what it is. Once uncle fester took over, the offense started consistently looking like trash which affected the o-line, and we havent had to many feared receiving corps until coach richt came home. The 04 class was at the height of the lazy recruiting era and just using these nerd recruiting sites instead of actually evaluating or knowing how to evaluate players. Which is why coach diaz is the right man for this job, he made it clear, those sites mean nothing, thebonly thing that matters is how this coaching staff ranks the players they're recruiting and how they rank em after they sign.

But coach kehoe, a man with all 5 national championship rings should not be placed in the same category as any of those others you named.
 
g8rh8rMD said:
The numbers would be very different, I’d guess, if it was “players taken in the first 3 rounds.”

Still, it is a very meaningful stat. As Ro pointed out, we had as much (more actually) “star power” talent on our OLine last year as Tigger. We just haven’t had the coaching and the offensive scheme.

Talent on the field has never been our problem.
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I have seen many coaching changes improve the OL over night, I am hoping thats what Enos is capable of cause IMO we have guys on that OL that are talented enough so be a good OL. Hopeful there eating that deer antler on a regular basis
 
DMoney said:
In 2013, we had four NFL players and a first-team All-ACC center. Did that unit dominate? Did they even come close?

It’s coaching, scheme (which you mentioned), strength and conditioning.
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Ah c’mon, don’t edit me mid-sentence, brah.
 
Ethnicsands said:
Is there anyone in the entire world who disputes the notion that UM has underachieved its talent level because of crappy coaching the past 17 years? It’s as close to a fact as opinions can be. It’s obviously true. 100000% agreed.

My point is people try so hard to make the obvious point there, they cross over into being talent denialists. We have had huge roster issues over this period. Our rosters (depth, balance, experience) have lagged our top level guys, which has hurt a lot. And overall, our talent has not been anywhere near what it was, or could have been, or should be.

If people think our talent has been fine, they will not understand our recruiting failures at all.

I have consistently said since Clappy roamed the sidelines that the issue is BOTH talent and coaching. It should be obvious that they go hand in hand. Bad coaches tend to be bad recruiters also.
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This really isn’t debatable. Yes we can and should have done much better with the available talent. No we haven’t had the talent necessary to compete at the top level of cfb.
 
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The Franchise said:
Laziest **** in sports. Puppeting that John Madden/Matt Millen garbage makes every fan feel like a genius. Throw out a few “you win in the trenches” and you’re a football scientist.
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Pretty much. The most caluassal mass failure of offensive line recruiting at Miami would still be able to move a savanah state line with relative ease with adept coaching. That goes for S&C, o line and scheme.
 
Tee3000 said:
Not me...I tried telling folks Kehoe was a **** good coach man...I know those are not all of his coached lineman but Art could really coach.
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*could being the operative word there.

Art was more washed that a forgotten sock at the laundromat during his last run in Coral Gables.
 
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LuCane said:
Many, many, many people on this board. Just read the game threads and week to week feedback throughout the season. "Our OL sucks." "Things would go better if we can get a halfway decent OL." "Can't fully blame Richt because his OL is so bad." "Cant fully blame the QBs because their OL can't hold a block." And so on and so forth. There are literally dozens of examples of people on this board alone saying they're excited about Manny Diaz's energy, but "we still have to fix the OL" before we can expect to compete.

Now, if you're saying if there's any analytical person who disputes the notion, I tend to agree with you. But, I can only go by what I see here and hear outside the board. The OL shoulders a disproportionate amount of the blame and it's not even in context.
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My view is you may be going past the defensible position here. Those people were not wrong that our OL stunk. We were rolling with jahair jones, hayden mahoney and jean paul gauthier. Where they were wrong, if they said it, was that that was a defense of Richt’s coaching. The OL probably wasnt as bad as it looked, because Richt ... but it was still bad! And Richt was worse than they thought, because he was causing part of the OL issues.

I 100% agree there were knuckleheads who were wrong in defending Richt, just like I believed the same thing when most of the same people defended the prior 3 corches. But that’s a separate topic. Of course there are knuckleheads on this site. But all sentient people understood that our schemes, game plans and play calling were terrible. And none of that meant that it is acceptable for this program to roll with the OL we rolled with. Keep in mind, the entire thread premise here is somehow we have had really good OL talent - on a par with Alabama’s - the past two decades. That is a flatly inaccurate view, imo, respectfully. I don’t believe a sentient person could believe that. Swagger clearly pointed out that OL are units and our few guys here or there was not part of overall talent groups that could play at Alabama.

Somewhere in the cloud there are posts from me before Richt’s first spring practice pointing out how terrible it was that his only OL signee was T. Johnson, and that I was scared ****less by him as a recruiter. Folks told me I was crazy, UGA, Sony Michel, blah blah. Except I was not crazy. And our OL and interior DL talent got ignored and poorly evaluated. We are really lucky that Golden left Richt with the DL guys he did, or Manny might not be coaching us right now.
 
Calvin said:
Facts are facts man, i didnt say coach kehoe was the best recruiter but his coaching resume cant be denied. But also his recruiting style was about not competing with the security & exchange commission conference for o-linemen, the bag game not strong up there in Canada. Coach kehoe turned out first rounders and draft picks consistently, and under the right headcoach, always proved his worth here. Under coach richt he would've thrived once again, it is what it is. Once uncle fester took over, the offense started consistently looking like trash which affected the o-line, and we havent had to many feared receiving corps until coach richt came home. The 04 class was at the height of the lazy recruiting era and just using these nerd recruiting sites instead of actually evaluating or knowing how to evaluate players. Which is why coach diaz is the right man for this job, he made it clear, those sites mean nothing, thebonly thing that matters is how this coaching staff ranks the players they're recruiting and how they rank em after they sign.

But coach kehoe, a man with all 5 national championship rings should not be placed in the same category as any of those others you named.
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you can defend kehoe if you want. The last of those rings was almost 20 years ago, and he wasnt the guy who put togeher those teams. Giving kehoe credit for Howard, JJ, Dennis and Butch’s talent seems to me to be silly. Anyone who thought he was good should have tapped out during the Coker era.
 
rsa coral gables said:
i'll respond. No, it has not been elite, but we have played below our talent level for 15 plus years just about at every position.
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Of course we have. Of course we have. Of course we have.

What else would you expect when we have had four awful corches?

No intelligent person could contend otherwise. Terrible coaching and bad recruiting in a self-reinforcing cycle. Wash, rinse, repeat.
 
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