Official Gus Edwards - (Currently a bshaw28 thread)

[bshaw28]

It’s telling that you need move the goalposts to camp invites. I’m talking about guys that actually make it through the intense NFL cutting process performed by professional evaluators.

The two guys you pegged as “below-average P5 talents” combined for close to 100 games in the league. Walton was on his way before the arrests. Nobody that plays that much in the league is a below-average P5 talent.

We just look at this from different angles - and we won't see eye to eye on it. You're more story & I'm more stats.

You'll say Walton / Laird / Ballage combined to play in 100 NFL games - therefore they're good.

I'll say, TRUE, but they put up bad numbers in those games - therefore they're not good.

Walton - 3.5 ypc
Laird - 3.2 ypc
Ballage - 3.1 ypc

I look at Walton's numbers & think people got fooled by the big numbers he put up by bad teams (it happens - I warn against it every year). But Walton was consistently bad vs good competition.

Non-P5 - 8.2 ypc
P5 - 3.8 ypc (18 RB's have led Miami in rushing since 2000. Walton is the only one to average under 4.0 ypc vs P5...90% of starting P5 RB's average 4.0+)
NFL Pre-Season - 1.9 ypc
NFL Regular Season - 3.5 ypc

I 100% think stats/numbers can be skewed to tell a story & be misleading.

I also think Stories/Narratives can be told to deflect & make excuses for the stats - and IMO that's what happened in Walton's case.

 

[cway313]

More story is hilarious. Please continue.

 

[bshaw28]

It’s telling that you need move the goalposts to camp invites. I’m talking about guys that actually make it through the intense NFL cutting process performed by professional evaluators.

The two guys you pegged as “below-average P5 talents” combined for close to 100 games in the league. Walton was on his way before the arrests. Nobody that plays that much in the league is a below-average P5 talent.

I didn't move the goalposts, I responded to you saying "Most college backs don’t even get invited to a camp because they lack the talent". So I pointed out 50+ college RB's do get invited to camp every year.


To be fair & to clarify - I don't think Walton was a below-average "overall" talent. I think he was a very good receiver, good pass protector, and decent ST player. I think his pass protection & ST play have always been overstated both in how good he was & how important those things are to overcompensate for the fact he was simply a bad runner.

Walton was a below average runner & below-average athlete. The numbers prove that pretty easily. And running is by far the main thing RB's needs to do.

RB's that can't run, WR's that can't catch, and QB's that can't throw - I'm personally never going to be on board with those type of players no matter what else they can do or intangibles they have.

I do think Walton was solid - he was just miscast as a lead RB when he was better suited to be a 3rd down/receiving type RB. It's not Walton I dislike (he tried hard & did the best he could) as it is the way he was used. So I guess my beef is more with Mark Richt.

I just think your assertions that Walton is "an elite football player" & "excellent football player" is either way over the top, or you just have a lower bar than I do on what "Elite" & "Excellent" looks like (which is completely fair - who is to say).

 

[Home Slice]

Best Canes RB of all time!



JK, but congrats to Gus on his NFL career

 

[JayCane20]

NFL career aside - why are we blasting Walton's production against P5 vs non-P5? That is typical for any RB anywhere.

Gus Edwards in college (including Rutgers)
Against non-P5 - 8.17 YPC and 0.8 TDs per game
Against P5 - 3.5 YPC and 0.3 TDs per game

He was given opportunities under Golden and Richt and proved he couldn't be an every down or lead back. He couldn't handle pass pro assignments, didn't run physical despite being 225 pounds, and never grasped the playbook under either staff so he didn't execute the offense the way it was designed.

As far as NFL career, he's obviously surpassed Walton. Something clicked for him eventually in the league but it didn't at Miami. Put it to rest at that.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

@DMoney while I agree with your responses to the self-proclaimed RB expert @bshaw28 , trust me when I tell you that it doesn’t matter what you say or how well crafted and documented your arguments are, you’re not arguing with a person that has a rational view on this topic.

While it’s natural to disagree, and even remain in disagreement while staying civil, I can tell you from numerous back-and-forths I’ve had with this gentleman over the years, that he is somehow unnaturally obsessed with certain running backs, most of all Mark Walton.

He will find any minute statistic to try to prove just how bad Mark Walton was. I used to joke around that Walton must’ve smashed somebody in his family for him to be so entrenched and obsessed towards him.

At the end of the day there’s not really any argument you could make for him to even see your side of the argument, much less convince him of what the actual facts and statistics indicate. I gave up a couple of years ago - there’s really no way to have a rational conversation about Mark Walton with him.

And for God sakes, don’t get him started on the Jordan Scarlett vs Walton diatribes. It never ends with this guy.

 

[mirvin88]

Yes, I said Walton would be a better pro than Duke. He was not. While starting for the Dolphins in his second season, he began getting arrested and never stopped. I misevaluated his ability to obey the law. Maybe Duke would have been better anyway. It’s unfortunate that Walton got in trouble just as he was getting huge snaps.

Now let’s turn to your position, which you have stubbornly held onto and used thousands of words to justify even as Walton emerged as a professional football player:

1) Walton was a “below-average” P5 back.

2) Richt started Walton over Yearby because of favoritism.

The first one is absurd on its face. You say that the Dolphins were bad by NFL standards. OK. We are talking about college players. And any player who is good enough to start for one of 32 NFL teams is a very good college talent.

It’s so obvious nothing more needs to be said. But if you need more, consider that Walton started over Myles Gaskin, a guy who rushed for 5,300 yards at the P5 level and is currently in his 5th season at the NFL level. Nobody could argue he was not a very good college talent with a straight face. And Walton was better.

As for the second point, your theory seems to be there was a conspiracy against Yearby and Richt played favorites. Of course, Walton got drafted fourth round and Yearby didn’t even make a camp. So that conspiracy apparently extended to every NFL franchise.

Walton was a very good college back that scored a lot of touchdowns, picked up the blitz at an elite level and was an outstanding receiver. Running the ball was the weakest part of his game, and he still averaged 5.3 and 7.6 ypc in his last two seasons. That package of skills got him drafted and earned him one of 32 starting jobs in the NFL.

You took a position early on and continue to dig in your heels. If the argument is that Gus was better than Walton, I can buy it. He was certainly a better runner, if a worse protector and receiver.

But if you need to write essay after essay to justify your take that Walton was below average, it is not a very sound take.

Dude his senior year ypc is such a loaded stat to reference. He averaged 2 yards a carry against FSU and 3 against Duke then big games against Toledo and BCU.

2016 he had a 5 game stretch averaging 3 or less ypc before padding stats against App State, FAMU and FAU to close the season.

In the NFL he averaged 3.5 a carry. Good backs don’t have that low of an average. Don’t care about the cupcake stats.

I don’t believe in any conspiracy talk but objectively speaking he wasn’t a very good back.

 

[DMoney]

Dude his senior year ypc is such a loaded stat to reference. He averaged 2 yards a carry against FSU and 3 against Duke then big games against Toledo and BCU.

2016 he had a 5 game stretch averaging 3 or less ypc before padding stats against App State, FAMU and FAU to close the season.

In the NFL he averaged 3.5 a carry. Good backs don’t have that low of an average. Don’t care about the cupcake stats.

I don’t believe in any conspiracy talk but objectively speaking he wasn’t a very good back.

His “senior year ypc” didn’t exist. He got injured halfway through the fourth game of his junior year. The guy got drafted fourth round without even having a ton of film.

As for the Duke game you referenced, he also had 79 yards receiving.

 

[mirvin88]

His “senior year ypc” didn’t exist. He got injured halfway through the fourth game of his junior year. The guy got drafted fourth round without even having a ton of film.

As for the Duke game you referenced, he also had 79 yards receiving.

Ok? Incorrect year referenced and some receiving yards. Point still stands.

 

[JHallCanes]

4-0 and the offense and defense are playing well

CiS: we gotta find something to argue about

 

[cway313]

@DMoney while I agree with your responses to the self-proclaimed RB expert @bshaw28 , trust me when I tell you that it doesn’t matter what you say or how well crafted and documented your arguments are, you’re not arguing with a person that has a rational view on this topic.

While it’s natural to disagree, and even remain in disagreement while staying civil, I can tell you from numerous back-and-forths I’ve had with this gentleman over the years, that he is somehow unnaturally obsessed with certain running backs, most of all Mark Walton.

He will find any minute statistic to try to prove just how bad Mark Walton was. I used to joke around that Walton must’ve smashed somebody in his family for him to be so entrenched and obsessed towards him.

At the end of the day there’s not really any argument you could make for him to even see your side of the argument, much less convince him of what the actual facts and statistics indicate. I gave up a couple of years ago - there’s really no way to have a rational conversation about Mark Walton with him.

And for God sakes, don’t get him started on the Jordan Scarlett vs Walton diatribes. It never ends with this guy.

I kind of want to type Mark Walton in random threads now to see where that takes me.

 

[OriginalCanesCanesCanes]

I kind of want to type Mark Walton in random threads now to see where that takes me.

Don’t do it! I promise you’ll regret it.

 

[calinative umstudent]

NFL career aside - why are we blasting Walton's production against P5 vs non-P5? That is typical for any RB anywhere.

Gus Edwards in college (including Rutgers)
Against non-P5 - 8.17 YPC and 0.8 TDs per game
Against P5 - 3.5 YPC and 0.3 TDs per game

He was given opportunities under Golden and Richt and proved he couldn't be an every down or lead back. He couldn't handle pass pro assignments, didn't run physical despite being 225 pounds, and never grasped the playbook under either staff so he didn't execute the offense the way it was designed.

As far as NFL career, he's obviously surpassed Walton. Something clicked for him eventually in the league but it didn't at Miami. Put it to rest at that.

Yeah Gus was a below average RB at Miami. He was probably above average at Rutgers. And he's been better in the NFL than he ever was in college, but he has never even been a #1 Rb on the Ravens and never will be except by injury.

Dude averages 123 carries, 3 TDs, and 646 yards per season. His ypc is good (5.25), but he's only doing it on like 7 carries per game and provides little in the passing game. And they have the best Running QB ever bringing up their average. JK dobbins - who consistently beats him for starting job and gets hurt even more often, averages 113 carries for 662 yards and 5.5 TDs. That's 5.85 ypc to Edwards 5.25, and more TDs even though Gus SHOULD get more goaline work giving his size!. Justice Hill averages like 4.6ypc for them, and Mark Ingram averaged like 4.8ypc when he was 30 and at end of his career during the same time.

Clearly the Ravens offense has elevated their RBs ypc numbers. People need to stop acting like because Gus averages over 5ypc for Ravens that he was good here. He wasn't.

 

[bshaw28]

Gus Edwards in college (including Rutgers)
Against non-P5 - 8.17 YPC and 0.8 TDs per game
Against P5 - 3.5 YPC and 0.3 TDs per game

He was given opportunities under Golden and Richt and proved he couldn't be an every down or lead back. He couldn't handle pass pro assignments, didn't run physical despite being 225 pounds, and never grasped the playbook under either staff so he didn't execute the offense the way it was designed.

As far as NFL career, he's obviously surpassed Walton. Something clicked for him eventually in the league but it didn't at Miami. Put it to rest at that.

It's not the difference between P5 & Non-P5

It's that Walton has the lowest P5 ypc of anyone. So how is it possible for someone with the lowest ypc to be considered "elite"?

Walton - 3.8 ypc vs P5

Not sure where you pulled the stats for Gus, but here's his actual YPC

Gus vs P5 - 4.1 ypc
Gus vs Non-P5 - 6.8 ypc

 

[bshaw28]

Ok? Incorrect year referenced and some receiving yards. Point still stands.

Nice try @mirvin88 - but @DMoney will NEVER acknowledge Walton's P5/Non-P5 difference. You can't respond when there is no response.

Here's how it goes every time: @DMoney says "Walton averaged 7.6 his Junior year before he got hurt in the 4th game"

You point out in those 4 games:

Waltons 7.6 ypc breaks down to - 13.4 vs Toledo/BCU - 2.6 vs FSU/Duke
Homers 8.4 ypc in breaks down to - 7.1 vs Toledo/BCU - 12.0 vs FSU/Duke


D$'s response........"Walton had 79 yds receiving vs Duke". Never has acknowledged, never will acknowledge......

 

[Empirical Cane]

To be clear, I mean, the OLine did not hold him back at Miami. He was behind a serviceable O-Line. That line produced multiple draft picks during his time..
2013: Sat behind Duke and Dallas Crawford. Was statistically the 3rd best back as a Frosh (more YPC than Crawford, but Craford had way less carries against Sav St, while nearly 35% of Gus Yards were from this game)
2014: Was the 2A/2B with Yearby, both behind Duke. Both had similar production, Yeaby had more YPC while Gus had more TDs.
2015: Was expected to start but was injured the whole year
2016: 3rd best back behind Mark Walton and Yearby, in a year where Walton ran for 1k+ yards and 14 TDs. Gus still padded stats against FAMU, maybe he wasn't fully healthy, whatever.

He absolutely DID run soft here at Miami. His most used move was bouncing outside and trying to tight rope the sideline. Yet in the league he's consistently falling/tumbling forward on every single carry. Hardly ever gets tackled going sideways or towards the sideline. Yall can't seriously have watched this dude at Miami, watch him as a Raven, and come to the conclusion that he's the same back, with 0 adjustment to his running habits, and just simply has a better O-Line/Scheme.

Gus could be an example of the type of player where he levels up when surrounded by other great players and not vice versa.

Behind a sub-par line, he doesn't have it to elevate. Behind an above average or elite line and for whatever reason, he just has it.

See it all the time.

 

[JayCane20]

It's not the difference between P5 & Non-P5

It's that Walton has the lowest P5 ypc of anyone. So how is it possible for someone with the lowest ypc to be considered "elite"?

Walton - 3.8 ypc vs P5

Not sure where you pulled the stats for Gus, but here's his actual YPC

Gus vs P5 - 4.1 ypc
Gus vs Non-P5 - 6.8 ypc

I just did the same calculation and told you the result and it wasn’t 4.1 YPC vs P5. It was lower than Walton (if you’re including Rutgers as well)

It’s also a lot different in garbage time vs against starters and when Walton was in the game vs Gus.

Hard pill to swallow. Walton was the more complete back in his college days. None of these backs had the benefit of a competent OL. They’re all 5.5-6 YPC guys in P5 games if they’re running behind this OL in 2023 back in college.

 

[bshaw28]

Yeah Gus was a below average RB at Miami. He was probably above average at Rutgers. And he's been better in the NFL than he ever was in college, but he has never even been a #1 Rb on the Ravens and never will be except by injury.

Dude averages 123 carries, 3 TDs, and 646 yards per season. His ypc is good (5.25), but he's only doing it on like 7 carries per game and provides little in the passing game. And they have the best Running QB ever bringing up their average. JK dobbins - who consistently beats him for starting job and gets hurt even more often, averages 113 carries for 662 yards and 5.5 TDs. That's 5.85 ypc to Edwards 5.25, and more TDs even though Gus SHOULD get more goaline work giving his size!. Justice Hill averages like 4.6ypc for them, and Mark Ingram averaged like 4.8ypc when he was 30 and at end of his career during the same time.

Clearly the Ravens offense has elevated their RBs ypc numbers. People need to stop acting like because Gus averages over 5ypc for Ravens that he was good here. He wasn't.

I like Gus - but I agree he was below average at Miami & has never been a ture #1 NFL RB. But according to D$ - all NFL RB's are "very good" college RB's. And if Walton was a starting NFL RB, Gus 100% would be.

But his NFL production is legit. No need to try and minimize that. For Example:

TD's
Dobbins has 234 carries & 12 TD's with the Ravens
Gus has 260 carries & 10 TD's in that same time
Is that really that big of a difference?
And if we're pointing out Lamar helps RB's YPC (which I agree with), isn't it fair to point out Lamar also vultures TD's same way Hurts, Josh Allen, etc. do?

5.0 YPC
Justice Hill career average is 4.3 ypc with the Ravens while Gus is 5.2
Gus still averaged 5.0 coming off an ACL
8 RB's have 100+ carries with the Ravens since Gus's rookie year. Only 2 - Gus & Dobbins have averaged over 5 ypc
This offense is RB friendly for sure, but it's not "plug any RB in and get the same results". Gus has been really good.

Usage
If you look at the 19 games where Gus has 10+ carries, he still averages 5.0 ypc. Volume's not changing anything
Gus was in the top 35 in NFL RB carries 3 years straight before tearing his ACL.
While he's never been a true #1, he's always been a high usage #2 (and one of the best in the NFL at that role)

 

[bshaw28]

I just did the same calculation and told you the result and it wasn’t 4.1 YPC vs P5. It was lower than Walton (if you’re including Rutgers as well)

It’s also a lot different in garbage time vs against starters and when Walton was in the game vs Gus.

Hard pill to swallow. Walton was the more complete back in his college days. None of these backs had the benefit of a competent OL. They’re all 5.5-6 YPC guys in P5 games if they’re running behind this OL in 2023 back in college.

Gus is definitely 4.1 ypc vs P5. Not sure where you're pulling you stats from, but I'll post mine separately and you can tell me where you think I'm off.

As for your comments about Gus, not saying your wrong, but I have questions:

He couldn't handle pass pro assignments - what's this based off of? PFF graded out Gus, Walton, and Yearby as good pass blockers.
Didn't run physical despite being 225 pounds - True & very fair. But I think fans just expect a 220+ RB to be able to run through everyone every time. It just doesn't work like that. Look at how Fletcher got stood up vs Texas A&M this year. A 225 lb vs a 300 lb DL / 240 ln LB is still at a disadvantage.
Never grasped the playbook under either staff - what is this based off of? I've never heard this before
He was given opportunities under Golden and Richt and proved he couldn't be an every down or lead back - When given opportunity & volume, he played well. See below

Here's all Gus's games at Miami with 10+ carries. By comparison:
Edwards had 10+ carries vs P5 teams in 6 games. He averaged 5+ ypc in 4 of them.
Walton had 10+ carries vs P5 teams in 19 games. He averaged 5+ ypc in 4 of them. Walton only averaged over 3.5 ypc in 6 of those 19 games. That's really bad.

Gus's games at Miami with 10+ carries:

 

[Cribby]

I just did the same calculation and told you the result and it wasn’t 4.1 YPC vs P5. It was lower than Walton (if you’re including Rutgers as well)

It’s also a lot different in garbage time vs against starters and when Walton was in the game vs Gus.

Hard pill to swallow. Walton was the more complete back in his college days. None of these backs had the benefit of a competent OL. They’re all 5.5-6 YPC guys in P5 games if they’re running behind this OL in 2023 back in college.

Find me a bad Ol and I’ll find you a bad ypc lol. There’s not many rb that can makeup for that , Barry being one of the few.