Goat

[Katzenboyer]

I mean, Brady's a great QB, I think we can all agree upon that. What gets me is when people say he's the GOAT over Montana, Manning, etc... simply based off SB rings. You think it helps that Brady has Bellichick who's without a doubt the greatest HC of all-time in the NFL? Again, if you put Manning in place of Brady, they probably win more.

No one has said this in this thread. Super Bowl rings are the cherry on top and put the feather in Brady's cap, but statistically he's probably going to be Top 3 (and, in some, top overall) in almost every major passing category (TDs, completion percentage, QB rating, yards, wins, etc.) all-time.

And you also destroy your "SB rings don't = GOAT" argument when you mention Montana. The only reason Montana is in this conversation is because of...YOU GUESSED IT!...his Super Bowl rings. The dude isn't even CLOSE to Brady's career passing statistics, and people overlook the fact that he was TRASH to start his career in the playoffs (see 1985 and 1986). Oh, and he also had a Mt. Rushmore coach on his sideline - Bill Walsh (who some people argue deserves the GOAT title over Belichick because of his creation of the West Coast offense).

The Manning argument is a fallacy. The guy consistently played his worst in the biggest moments, and he got to rack up statistics playing 8 games a season in a climate-controlled atmosphere.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Wins 75% of his games without Brady. What a horrible coach, Brady has to carry him.

He was 5-11 year 1 with the Pats, and 11-5 the year with Cassell -- who, as has been explained in this thread, got to navigate an offense that went undefeated in the regular season the year prior against the NFL's worst schedule.

Look deeper than numbers. No one is saying Belichick isn't great, but he isn't where he is without Brady. That doesn't undermine either's achievements, but it's not a knock on Brady - it's telling that BB didn't win jack **** until #12 was leading his team, and that's a fact.

 

[orange&green84]

He was 5-11 year 1 with the Pats, and 11-5 the year with Cassell -- who, as has been explained in this thread, got to navigate an offense that went undefeated in the regular season the year prior against the NFL's worst schedule.

Look deeper than numbers. No one is saying Belichick isn't great, but he isn't where he is without Brady. That doesn't undermine either's achievements, but it's not a knock on Brady - it's telling that BB didn't win jack **** until #12 was leading his team, and that's a fact.

Belichick got better as a coach along the way. Bellichick didn't win **** without Brady as a head coach, then cool. Brady hasn't won **** without Belichick. See how that **** works?

 

[ddann]

There it is. I never understood how Patriots fans don't accept that Bellichick is the greatest coach, and instead give the credit to Brady. I've only met one Pats fan that has understood this concept.

Maybe because Belichick has the personality of an angry dish towel.

Think about the all-time great coaches in any pro sport. They are colorful characters that people want to be around and learn from. They are full of witty quips and quotes and wisdom. They are charismatic individuals.

Belichick is none of those things. He looks like a miserable curmudgeon all the time even though he wins more than anyone else. Plus, he’s been caught cheating, so that doesn’t help.

Tom for sure doesn’t win like he has without him. But the dude just isn’t likeable.

 

[orange&green84]

No one has said this in this thread. Super Bowl rings are the cherry on top and put the feather in Brady's cap, but statistically he's probably going to be Top 3 (and, in some, top overall) in almost every major passing category (TDs, completion percentage, QB rating, yards, wins, etc.) all-time.

And you also destroy your "SB rings don't = GOAT" argument when you mention Montana. The only reason Montana is in this conversation is because of...YOU GUESSED IT!...his Super Bowl rings. The dude isn't even CLOSE to Brady's career passing statistics, and people overlook the fact that he was TRASH to start his career in the playoffs (see 1985 and 1986). Oh, and he also had a Mt. Rushmore coach on his sideline - Bill Walsh (who some people argue deserves the GOAT title over Belichick because of his creation of the West Coast offense).

The Manning argument is a fallacy. The guy consistently played his worst in the biggest moments, and he got to rack up statistics playing 8 games a season in a climate-controlled atmosphere.

See, I don't have a GOAT QB in the whole conversation. In the end, most of these guys end up in great systems (like Brees with Payton). Brady's going to end up on the top in terms of total TDs and yards because of longevity. Montana didn't have nearly the same career. Also, Montana didn't play in a league where offenses are more fast paced and scoring more. Marino held onto the record for most passing yards in a season going over 5,000 yards. Brees has gone over 5000 yards multiple times.

I just consider what Manning did to be more impressive considering outside of his last season in the NFL, he never had an elite defense behind him like Brady. He also only had Tony Dungy for a portion of his career while he also had to drag guys like John Fox and Jim Caldwell to the SB.

 

[UMercury21]

if brady were on the dolphins he'd have 0 superbowls and likely be retired already due to injury. how does that make him the Goat if he would be awful on any other team?

 

[Insanecane]

if brady were on the dolphins he'd have 0 superbowls and likely be retired already due to injury. how does that make him the Goat if he would be awful on any other team?

if Manning, Rogers, Brees, Montana, and Marino were on the dolphins he'd have 0 superbowls and likely be retired already due to injury. how does that make him the Goat if he would be awful on any other team?

 

[ddann]

if brady were on the dolphins he'd have 0 superbowls and likely be retired already due to injury. how does that make him the Goat if he would be awful on any other team?

This is the problem.

When you look at Brady as a QB, what is it that makes him the GOAT?

It's the rings.

Do you look at him and say, "Wow, check out that arm, he has a cannon!" No. Do you look at him and say, "Wow, he's so elusive, look at how he can fire a rocket on the run!" No. Do you hear about him inspiring his teammates on the sideline or in a huddle as a field general? No. Is he an innovator at the position? Did he bring something new to the game? No.

He has the rings, though.

 

[Katzenboyer]

This is the problem.

When you look at Brady as a QB, what is it that makes him the GOAT?

It's the rings.

Do you look at him and say, "Wow, check out that arm, he has a cannon!" No. Do you look at him and say, "Wow, he's so elusive, look at how he can fire a rocket on the run!" No. Do you hear about him inspiring his teammates on the sideline or in a huddle as a field general? No. Is he an innovator at the position? Did he bring something new to the game? No.

He has the rings, though.

It's not just the rings, for chrissakes.

• He's fourth all time in pass yards (and, barring injury, will be second by Week 6 next year).
• He's fourth all-time in completions (and will be second by the end of next season).
• He's third all-time in passing TDs, and will pass Manning for #1 by Week 12 next season.

Your other criteria are either (1) wrong or (2) a complete joke. Joe Montana didn't have a "cannon." Neither did Peyton. If "physical traits" were the defining characteristic for an all-time QB, Jeff George would be in Canton (hint: he's not).

And your "field general" comment is about as off as possible; every player to a man raves about Brady's leadership ability. Listen to Randy Moss talk about him; or James Harrison - a guy who spent most of his career hating the Patriots - talking about Brady as if he's in another universe as Roethlisberger as a leader.

But you do you. Don't let facts get in the way of your opinion.

 

[CaneOil]

There it is. I never understood how Patriots fans don't accept that Bellichick is the greatest coach, and instead give the credit to Brady. I've only met one Pats fan that has understood this concept.

I give credit to both. Not one doubt he's a great coach, I'm not willing to say after watching him make game winning drive after game winning drive he's not the best. I don't believe you could plug in any other QB that would have done what he's done. Many of you are just haters. Like I said he's not my favorite player, he's just the best QB of all time.

 

[ddann]

It's not just the rings, for *.

• He's fourth all time in pass yards (and, barring injury, will be second by Week 6 next year).
• He's fourth all-time in completions (and will be second by the end of next season).
• He's third all-time in passing TDs, and will pass Manning for #1 by Week 12 next season.

Your other criteria are either (1) wrong or (2) a complete joke. Joe Montana didn't have a "cannon." Neither did Peyton. If "physical traits" were the defining characteristic for an all-time QB, Jeff George would be in Canton (hint: he's not).

And your "field general" comment is about as off as possible; every player to a man raves about Brady's leadership ability. Listen to Randy Moss talk about him; or James Harrison - a guy who spent most of his career hating the Patriots - talking about Brady as if he's in another universe as Roethlisberger as a leader.

But you do you. Don't let facts get in the way of your opinion.

Yes, you're right, it's not just the rings. It's also his longevity. Few guys are able to play as long as he has, so that's one thing that he has been able to do better than just about anyone else. He will end up with most of the meaningful passing records (or be close to the top in all categories) as a result of being successful for so long.

Of course the guys he's competed with and against will point to his leadership. But we've all seen him sitting on the sideline sulking by himself when the game isn't going his way.

I never said he was a bad QB. That would be stupid.

My point is that what makes him stand out is that he has won so many Super Bowls. That's the thing that jumps off the screen more than anything else.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Yes, you're right, it's not just the rings. It's also his longevity. Few guys are able to play as long as he has, so that's one thing that he has been able to do better than just about anyone else. He will end up with most of the meaningful passing records (or be close to the top in all categories) as a result of being successful for so long.

Of course the guys he's competed with and against will point to his leadership. But we've all seen him sitting on the sideline sulking by himself when the game isn't going his way.

I never said he was a bad QB. That would be stupid.

My point is that what makes him stand out is that he has won so many Super Bowls. That's the thing that jumps off the screen more than anything else.

Fair enough.

 

[CaneOil]

Yes. Because in basketball, individual talent has a higher impact on the game. Coaching is more focused in football where game planning is more effective and having a good-to-great QB (which Brady fits the latter). Bellichick and Flores out-schemed Sean McVay. Once they couldn't get the running game going, their offense was stuck. Bellichick shut down the (2nd if we count KC which there's debate there) best offense in the league and held them to 3 points. Brady did enough to not to lose the game and managed the game; but that shouldn't enforce him as the GOAT QB.

Great I agree 100% individual talent in BB has a higher impact of the game. Jordan never beat Boston, LA or Detroit in the 80's. Boston .dominated Chicago, I do mean dominated. 16 wins in a row, blew them out in the playoffs. I was there for almost every game. We mocked Jordan as over rated, he got his points because he took so many shots. Many times he had guys open just tried to do it all himself. Now you will say he didn't play with anyone excuse, he had Pippen in 87 still got his *** handed to him for 4 years till the other teams great players got old or retired. Bird even dominated when Kevin M went down. Did it in Chicago, outplayed Jordan big time, even shot the game winner in Jordan and Pippens face.

The facts are he didn't beat the best for 8 years in a row, by then the best were gone. You watch the game in Chicago with the game on the line and tell me he was the GOAT. Jordan was the most effectively marketed athletes in history so everyone thinks he was the GOAT. Now if you want to go by Championships he's not even close. GOATS don't lose 16 in a row and get swept in the playoffs. At least 4-5 players I'd take over him, at least. I don't even rate him as the best guard of all time. I saw Magic and Jordan play for years right in front of me for years. I'd take Magic every single time in a draft over Jordan. Thinking about it, I can't really choose who was GOAT between Magic, Bird and Jabbar, even after watching them play for close to 10 years. But I sure and **** know it's not Jordan. Bottom line Jordan never beat the best, period. Edit. Add Labron in there.

GOATS win against the best and when the games on the line the they put it away. I don't care how many spins a guy can do before they stuff it, I care about when the game is on the line, they put it away. Just as in football I can't take that away from Brady, he's done it better than anyone else in history.

 

[ddann]

I mean, Brady's a great QB, I think we can all agree upon that. What gets me is when people say he's the GOAT over Montana, Manning, etc... simply based off SB rings. You think it helps that Brady has Bellichick who's without a doubt the greatest HC of all-time in the NFL? Again, if you put Manning in place of Brady, they probably win more.

Brady has had Belichick his entire career.

Manning had this:

 

[monkey1371]

Nah, I’m good fam. Thanks for the tip tho.

Also, I didn’t use “in” incorrectly. I believe the word you’re looking for is “it”. You believe I used “it” incorrectly. I gotcha tho my brother, just trying to help. You might wanna buy that lawn service you work for one day and you’ll have to show a semblance of intelligence. I’m here for you. Good luck.

Lawn Service.....What a zinger you really got me.

Whatever.....You got a hard on for Brady. It causes you to say things "Look how lucky he is to get Goff in the superbowl, while ignoring he had to beat a "borderline" HOF QB in first playoff game and then go on the road (because of a fluke play and bad coaching) to play the NFL MVP in his stadium to get there.

When you are ready to actually look at things fairly with some sense of logic, instead of your hate filled glasses, I will be here to help you.

 

[orange&green84]

Lawn Service.....What a zinger you really got me.

Whatever.....You got a hard on for Brady. It causes you to say things "Look how lucky he is to get Goff in the superbowl, while ignoring he had to beat a "borderline" HOF QB in first playoff game and then go on the road (because of a fluke play and bad coaching) to play the NFL MVP in his stadium to get there.

When you are ready to actually look at things fairly with some sense of logic, instead of your hate filled glasses, I will be here to help you.

I really laugh when people mention head-to-head battles with QBs. Brady isn't designing the game plan to stop Rivers, Mahomes or Goff. He's watching film on how to go against their defenses. The Chargers had the 11th ranked defense. The Chiefs and Rams were 24th and 20th respectively; that's who Brady's going against and measured. Not that he beat Goff or Mahomes.

 

[monkey1371]

Brady has had Belichick his entire career.

Manning had this:

Counterpoint.....

Manning had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James for most of his career....

Brady was winning Superbowls with Deion Branch and David Givens as his top WR's and Kevin Faulk as his running back.

Seems Relevant.

 

[ddann]

Look at it this way:

You are going to be the head coach of an NFL team. You can take any QB that has ever played in the NFL in his prime to be your QB.

Who are you taking?

(And you don't get to have Bill Belichick on your staff, BTW).

 

[Tad Footeball]

Ehhh...you guys can argue Brady, Rice, Manning, Montana, Nathan Peterman all you want...but this one is real simple and not even close...Tony Danza is the GOAT.

An excellent choice.....but......was he truly the "boss".....or just a cog in the Angela/Mona/Alyssa Milano machine?

Alan Thicke is my GOAT. A multi-tool force that was impossible to gameplan for. RIP you magnificent *******. RIP.

 

[monkey1371]

I really laugh when people mention head-to-head battles with QBs. Brady isn't designing the game plan to stop Rivers, Mahomes or Goff. He's watching film on how to go against their defenses. The Chargers had the 11th ranked defense. The Chiefs and Rams were 24th and 20th respectively; that's who Brady's going against and measured. Not that he beat Goff or Mahomes.

So you agree it was dumb point to be brought up about being "lucky to get Goff".