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Goat

orange&green84 said:
If it weren't for that Dee Ford penalty (in which he had no affect on the play), Brady would've essentially lost the game and had a 1:3 TD/INT ratio while throwing for just over 200 yards. But.....Brady got a 2nd chance and capitalized.
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Brady's GOAT status was cemented long before the Dee Ford offsides; the (correct) call on that play doesn't change that whatsoever, even if the pick had stood. (Also, two of the INTs hit Edelman and Gronk in the hands, so I'm not faulting Brady on those ones).

You can argue with me until you're blue in the face. I consider the Patriots success more to Belichick than Brady. Put McDaniels as the HC and watch that franchise not get close to the same success.
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Belichick has coached another franchise, and did not get close to the same success. The guy was fighting a "good coordinator, bad head coach" his entire career until Drew Bledsoe got injured in 2001.

The two's success go hand-in-hand; but that doesn't take away the fact that #12 is the all-time best football player who has ever lived, regardless of position. Anyone saying otherwise is just ignoring an objective fact.
 
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OriginalGatorHater said:
Ya...I never said Bill and Tom were not great. I never said its rigged either. Maybe you should have read my post before responding. The NFL is not sick of the pats winning the SB. They love having teams with massive fanbases in the SB. Plus all the Pats haters tune in hoping to see the Pats lose.

The pats clearly have had the best OL for the past 15 years. A few years they may not have had the best, but the average OL is better than any other team. The team is always loaded with talent plus they have great defenses.
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They don’t have great defenses. 25th, 21st, 26th, 31st. Those are some of the defensive rankings for the pats in the last 8 years
 
HamburgerSV said:
He has numbers , 5 Super Bowls, 12 game winning drives. Manning has numbers Who would you put ahead of him
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That is not the point. The man literally said SBs are everything and I posted a counter. If Brady was drafted by the browns in 2000 and never won an SB in his entire career would you still have him as the GOAT?
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
That is not the point. The man literally said SBs are everything and I posted a counter. If Brady was drafted by the browns in 2000 and never won an SB in his entire career would you still have him as the GOAT?
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How you know he would have never won ? The pats were a bad franchise before Brady got there (2 super bowl appearances 0 wins in like 30 years). You’re basically asking would brady still be the GOAT if he wasn’t Brady
 
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OriginalGatorHater said:
I saw Elway play in the 90s, but I was still to young to really be able to give them a fair shake.

That is the point with basketball. You have 5 guys playing basically the entire game. Look at the cavs. With Lebron they were making the NC. Without lebron they are literally the last team in the East standings. With Brady the Pats are making the SB. Without Brady they are not going to be the worst team in the east coast.

Like I said I am not an expert on all QBs of all time. So I am not qualified to say who the best QB of all time is. However, my point still stands. Saying "but he gotz 5 rangs" doesn't mean he is the GOAT. So....based on your argument, if Brady happened to land on the browns you wouldn't have him in the GOAT conversation?
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I would say the Browns would be exponentially better with Brady than without Brady. Unless you've played some QB it is hard to truly appreciate how the offense if good because of him. He makes the running game successful by deciding when and where to run the ball with his presnap reads. Sure he needs guys around him to execute, but he is the guy who checks into a run, and where to run, or out of it and into a pass play. He regularly audibles and sets protection assignments for the offensive line and running backs. And of course he has a great feel for pressure and quick decision making which accounts for fewer negative plays, always a huge boost to offensive performance. I'd say the Browns would be in the playoffs most years he was their starter, especially considering how the Browns have had much better skill players and high draft picks (which the Browns tend to spend on finding a good QB) than the Pats have had in the 19 years.
 
orange&green84 said:
So....does Belichick get any credit here? Brady always has pretty good OLs. Noticed Brady didn't get hit once the entire game, with the exception of a BS roughing the passer call (arm swipe over the shoulder into the chest). I never said Brady was a scrub, in fact I think he's a really **** good QB; elite in fact and a mount rushmore QB. I just don't think he's clear and away the GOAT.

If it weren't for that Dee Ford penalty (in which he had no affect on the play), Brady would've essentially lost the game and had a 1:3 TD/INT ratio while throwing for just over 200 yards. But.....Brady got a 2nd chance and capitalized.

You can argue with me until you're blue in the face. I consider the Patriots success more to Belichick than Brady. Put McDaniels as the HC and watch that franchise not get close to the same success.
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Lmao
 
Katzenboyer said:
Who else in the "GOAT" conversation didn't have a great head coach? Montana had Walsh. Manning had Dungy. Brees has had Payton.

Seriously, give me a GOAT alternative. Who else is in any way comparable to Brady? It's not even a conversation.
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QFT

And in all honesty, Elway is No. 2, not Manning.
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
Ya...I never said Bill and Tom were not great. I never said its rigged either. Maybe you should have read my post before responding. The NFL is not sick of the pats winning the SB. They love having teams with massive fanbases in the SB. Plus all the Pats haters tune in hoping to see the Pats lose.

The pats clearly have had the best OL for the past 15 years. A few years they may not have had the best, but the average OL is better than any other team. The team is always loaded with talent plus they have great defenses.
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Yeah when I replied to yours I was also addressing other stuff. Dude for 15 years? That’s all Dante Scharneccia. That guys is the best OL coach ever. He’s amazing. But the OL in general has a lot of turnover.
 
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Ethnicsands said:
QFT

And in all honesty, Elway is No. 2, not Manning.
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After Brady...you can start to get cute with ratings if you want.

You can take it two ways...most talented or most deserving through their accomplishments.

I've always thought Elway was one of the most talented QBs to ever lace'em up. One of the best draft prospects in the history of football, too. Montana was the gold standard for almost 30 years through his accomplishments, especially as a playoff QB.

But this era not only has a plethora of talented quarterbacks, pretty much all of them have eventually won Super Bowls. Some have multiple. Even adjusted for era this eras QBs are just above all but a few all-time greats. I think this era will have an excessive number of future Hall of Famers as a result.
 
People are kidding themselves thinking Pats have been able to ‘cheat’ their way to 9 Super Bowls. Pushing the envelope a few times, okay. Hands caught in the cookie jar, fine.

The rest of the NFL should cheat this good. Wish the Bucs would learn how.
 
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TemplarCane said:
Joe Montana (4-0 SB, 3X SB MVP) questions this ranking.

But who wants to quibble?
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Montana had his era, great coach, innovative offense, GOAT WR, great RB, great D ... but no one in their right mind would take him over Elway at peak. Heck, Elway vs. Brady with 2 minutes in the Fourth would be interesting.
 
Katzenboyer said:
Who else in the "GOAT" conversation didn't have a great head coach? Montana had Walsh. Manning had Dungy. Brees has had Payton.

Seriously, give me a GOAT alternative. Who else is in any way comparable to Brady? It's not even a conversation.
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Manning had Dungy for only a portion of his career. Brees had Payton for a vast majority. Brady for its entirety.
 
Katzenboyer said:
Brady's GOAT status was cemented long before the Dee Ford offsides; the (correct) call on that play doesn't change that whatsoever, even if the pick had stood. (Also, two of the INTs hit Edelman and Gronk in the hands, so I'm not faulting Brady on those ones).



Belichick has coached another franchise, and did not get close to the same success. The guy was fighting a "good coordinator, bad head coach" his entire career until Drew Bledsoe got injured in 2001.

The two's success go hand-in-hand; but that doesn't take away the fact that #12 is the all-time best football player who has ever lived, regardless of position. Anyone saying otherwise is just ignoring an objective fact.
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Best resume, sure. Best player of all-time, no.

And Belichick got fired from Cleveland. That franchise is a continuous joke.
 
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Ethnicsands said:
Montana had his era, great coach, innovative offense, GOAT WR, great RB, great D ... but no one in their right mind would take him over Elway at peak. Heck, Elway vs. Brady with 2 minutes in the Fourth would be interesting.
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Some fine lines being drawn, for sure. I do remember Montana winning an NFC title and a SB with long, last minute drives. But then, Elway took three average Denver teams to SBs before a team was eventually put around him good enough to win one. Shame Marino never had that.
 
I’m not sure I’d rank Brady at the greatest player of all time regardless of position.

I’d rank Lawrence Taylor as best player of the modern era (post 1978). He literally changed how the game was played.
 
TemplarCane said:
Some fine lines being drawn, for sure. I do remember Montana winning an NFC title and a SB with long, last minute drives. But then, Elway took three average Denver teams to SBs before a team was eventually put around him good enough to win one. Shame Marino never had that.
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I’m not knocking Montana, and I liked him more when he was playing than I did Elway. But Elway was a far better athlete, and more dangerous as a QB, amd if you had to pick one or the other to win you a game, and they didn’t get to bring Jerry Rice along, I know who I would pick. Elway would translate to today’s game spot on. Montana, less so, IMO.
 
frostycane said:
Yeah when I replied to yours I was also addressing other stuff. Dude for 15 years? That’s all Dante Scharneccia. That guys is the best OL coach ever. He’s amazing. But the OL in general has a lot of turnover.
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Of course that is my point. Having the best OL coach ever is a massive advantage.
 
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