For those who say we need an "offensive coach"

[CanesAreAble]

Speaking of Kaaya (and Allison), wouldn't we want to optimize their production with an elite offensive coach?

Fuente would have those guys getting invited to New York.


I just refuse to believe Fuente, Herman, or one of these other sharp offensive minds would go the way of Al Golden and construct a putrid defense out of 4-star talent. It takes a special kind of ineptitude and obstinacy to do that.

On the other hand, we've seen these fire & brimstone defensive coaches put up garbage offenses despite having access to talent: Charlie Strong, Will Muschamp, and even Butch at UNC.

 

[The Franchise]

On the other hand, we've seen these fire & brimstone defensive coaches put up garbage offenses despite having access to talent: Charlie Strong, Will Muschamp, and even Butch at UNC.

That's what scares me about Strong and Butch.

 

[DMoney]

Too much focus is being placed (IMO) on the singular statistic that makes this offense look like it's being held back by the defense. Earlier in the thread, you said the yards per play number shows that the offense has performed at a comparable level to the top teams. But it clearly hasn't. Points per play seems to provide a far more accurate reflection of our offense's performance (84th over the last 3 years in points per play compared to 10th in yards per play over the last 5 years).

Every other statistic shows it's a below average unit that's underperformed at a startling rate for years relative to the talent level. Our offensive line is as bad as it's been in my lifetime. We're ranked 113th in rushing offense despite having the most fertile recruiting ground for RBs in the entire country. Our third down offense is ranked in the 100s. Our red zone offense is ranked in the 70s and we score TDs just 47% of the time once we're inside the 20.

On one hand you can say our offense is closer to being good than the defense because of Brad Kaaya. The flipside of that, though, is that it's completely reasonable for certain fans to believe the following:

- Charlie Strong shouldn't be a top candidate given the woeful state of Texas' offense, his botching of their OC situation, and subsequent scapegoating of the playcaller he shouldn't have retained in the first place.
- James Coley cannot be retained as our OC.
- Hiring a defensive-minded coach who's a liability offensively for the third consecutive time continues to squander one of our program's greatest built-in advantages (abundance of difference making skill talent in our recruiting base).

When you finally land a QB of Kaaya's caliber, you don't want to see him handcuffed by a candidate with an alarmingly insufficient offensive track record. I agree with you that the defense is the greatest problem that needs to be fixed. But the offense is problem 1A, not the cartoon showing a coffee-drinking dog saying "this is fine" in a room engulfed in flames.

Tack this post to the top of the board and then close the tacked thread.

D$, are your ribs tough enough to tattoo this post on them? This dude's spitting truth right here. Pull your deeply entrenched heels out of the dirt, and tip your cap to him, D.

For one thing, the entire post is based on an incorrect stat.

01Canes (who is one of my favorite posters on the board) just miscalculated the numbers. Honest mistake, but it is what it is. Second, I'm advocating Dorsey for OC, not Coley. Third, I don't think Butch or Strong would handcuff Kaaya. Butch didn't handcuff Dorsey, and Strong **** sure didn't handcuff Bridgewater.

 

[01Canes]

How so? The offense is already way ahead and, most importantly, brings back Brad Kaaya.

It's not way ahead just because you keep repeating it's way ahead. And the reason is simple: we'll have more talent and impact players on the D roster next year. The talent on the DL should be absurd.

That's why I use stats and not just my opinion.

As for the DL, I have high hopes, but that's all they are for now. Brad Kaaya is proven and plays the most impactful position on the field.

Too much focus is being placed (IMO) on the singular statistic that makes this offense look like it's being held back by the defense. Earlier in the thread, you said the yards per play number shows that the offense has performed at a comparable level to the top teams. But it clearly hasn't. Points per play seems to provide a far more accurate reflection of our offense's performance (84th over the last 3 years in points per play compared to 10th in yards per play over the last 5 years).

Every other statistic shows it's a below average unit that's underperformed at a startling rate for years relative to the talent level. Our offensive line is as bad as it's been in my lifetime. We're ranked 113th in rushing offense despite having the most fertile recruiting ground for RBs in the entire country. Our third down offense is ranked in the 100s. Our red zone offense is ranked in the 70s and we score TDs just 47% of the time once we're inside the 20.

On one hand you can say our offense is closer to being good than the defense because of Brad Kaaya. The flipside of that, though, is that it's completely reasonable for certain fans to believe the following:

- Charlie Strong shouldn't be a top candidate given the woeful state of Texas' offense, his botching of their OC situation, and subsequent scapegoating of the playcaller he shouldn't have retained in the first place.
- James Coley cannot be retained as our OC.
- Hiring a defensive-minded coach who's a liability offensively for the third consecutive time continues to squander one of our program's greatest built-in advantages (abundance of difference making skill talent in our recruiting base).

When you finally land a QB of Kaaya's caliber, you don't want to see him handcuffed by a candidate with an alarmingly insufficient offensive track record. I agree with you that the defense is the greatest problem that needs to be fixed. But the offense is problem 1A, not the cartoon showing a coffee-drinking dog saying "this is fine" in a room engulfed in flames.

Tack this post to the top of the board and then close the tacked thread.

D$, are your ribs tough enough to tattoo this post on them? This dude's spitting truth right here. Pull your deeply entrenched heels out of the dirt, and tip your cap to him, D.

Wish I didn't make the mistake of assuming "Last 3" at TeamRankings.com was for years, not games. But I stand by my overall point. And our 2015 points per play ranking being in the 70s is still a stark contrast to the yards per play number over the last 5 years. It also provides a more accurate reflection of where this program currently stands (IMO) with Duke, Walford, Flowers, and Dorsett now in the NFL.

 

[DMoney]

Fuente would have those guys getting invited to New York.

Herman is one of my top candidates. Fuente, I just don't see as realistic based on what I've heard. Both look like the real deal. But they haven't had the chance to really show their warts yet. People used to love Steve Kragthorpe, and he ended up running Louisville into the ground before Strong took over.

I just refuse to believe Fuente, Herman, or one of these other sharp offensive minds would go the way of Al Golden and construct a putrid defense out of 4-star talent. It takes a special kind of ineptitude and obstinacy to do that.

It's not as hard as you think. Rich Rodriguez was the ultimate offensive coach with a better track record than anybody. And he still found a way to take Michigan from 55th to 81st to 100th in yards per play.

 

[DiegoCane]

Too much focus is being placed (IMO) on the singular statistic that makes this offense look like it's being held back by the defense. Earlier in the thread, you said the yards per play number shows that the offense has performed at a comparable level to the top teams. But it clearly hasn't. Points per play seems to provide a far more accurate reflection of our offense's performance (84th over the last 3 years in points per play compared to 10th in yards per play over the last 5 years).

Every other statistic shows it's a below average unit that's underperformed at a startling rate for years relative to the talent level. Our offensive line is as bad as it's been in my lifetime. We're ranked 113th in rushing offense despite having the most fertile recruiting ground for RBs in the entire country. Our third down offense is ranked in the 100s. Our red zone offense is ranked in the 70s and we score TDs just 47% of the time once we're inside the 20.

On one hand you can say our offense is closer to being good than the defense because of Brad Kaaya. The flipside of that, though, is that it's completely reasonable for certain fans to believe the following:

- Charlie Strong shouldn't be a top candidate given the woeful state of Texas' offense, his botching of their OC situation, and subsequent scapegoating of the playcaller he shouldn't have retained in the first place.
- James Coley cannot be retained as our OC.
- Hiring a defensive-minded coach who's a liability offensively for the third consecutive time continues to squander one of our program's greatest built-in advantages (abundance of difference making skill talent in our recruiting base).

When you finally land a QB of Kaaya's caliber, you don't want to see him handcuffed by a candidate with an alarmingly insufficient offensive track record. I agree with you that the defense is the greatest problem that needs to be fixed. But the offense is problem 1A, not the cartoon showing a coffee-drinking dog saying "this is fine" in a room engulfed in flames.

Tack this post to the top of the board and then close the tacked thread.

D$, are your ribs tough enough to tattoo this post on them? This dude's spitting truth right here. Pull your deeply entrenched heels out of the dirt, and tip your cap to him, D.

For one thing, the entire post is based on an incorrect stat.

01Canes (who is one of my favorite posters on the board) just miscalculated the numbers. Honest mistake, but it is what it is. Second, I'm advocating Dorsey for OC, not Coley. Third, I don't think Butch or Strong would handcuff Kaaya. Butch didn't handcuff Dorsey, and Strong **** sure didn't handcuff Bridgewater.

Bridgewater started a better part of 3 seasons, their offenses ranked:
103rd
51st
28th

Hardly impressive. Despite that large talent advantage and a first round QB they ran the offense at a snails pace, which negated that advantage:

Offensive plays per game in those 3 seasons:
89th
63rd
79th

Now you can say he didn't handcuff him if you want (some would disagree) but he certainly didn't take advantage of what he had at UL offensively.

Strong other 3 years as a HC w/o Bridgewater:
2010: 95th in plays run/71st in offense
2014: 89th/113th
2015: 116th/118th


Why would anyone want to hand over Miami to one of the most conservative coaches in CFB? I just don't get it. Where even if he got a 1st round QB and a large talent advantage on that side of the ball, he wouldn't use it to its fullest ability. Almost all of college football is getting faster, we are located in the area with the best skill position players in the world and the solution is to hire one of the most conservative coaches in college football. Who now has a pattern and history of lousy offenses.

I wish I could wrap my head around this. Its like buying a Ferrari and then only driving it 25 MPH

 

[CanesAreAble]

Herman is one of my top candidates. Fuente, I just don't see as realistic based on what I've heard. Both look like the real deal. But they haven't had the chance to really show their warts yet. People used to love Steve Kragthorpe, and he ended up running Louisville into the ground before Strong took over.

Kragthorpe didn't have the bona fides of Fuente and Herman as a coordinator, and his tenure at Tulsa was Golden-esque (Temple); it was good, but nothing remarkable. He got hold of Brian Brohm and basically ruined him, whereas Fuente and Herman have excelled with QBs.

It's not as hard as you think. Rich Rodriguez was the ultimate offensive coach with a better track record than anybody. And he still found a way to take Michigan from 55th to 81st to 100th in yards per play.

Rich Rod's problem was similar to Golden in that he tried to run a system counter to his recruiting base, and eventually he lost the team. I don't foresee that issue with Herman or Fuente.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Yards per play is a phenomenal stat. One of the great belly laughs I had on this site was last season when one poster attempted to loudly denounce it. No surprise he posted a mocking reply in this thread, specifically on page 2.

Loud and wrong.

* Yards Per Play
* Yards Per Point
* Points Per Pass Attempt
* Yards Per Pass Attempt Differential
* Yards Per Play Differential

All useful. I have many systems in Excel workbooks that rely on a blend of them. But for basic research purposes Yards Per Play is plenty sufficient. I've mentioned it for more than a decade on Canes sites, normally in regard to defense and generally the Yards Allowed Per Pass Attempt. That specific category tends to isolate the best defensive teams slightly better than overall yards per play allowed.

It was ominous years ago when Florida State began to climb the national ladder in yards allowed per play, after Fisher took over. I highlighted that on Canes sites even while posters were still ridiculing the Seminoles as frauds. Every year there are interesting examples. This year Oklahoma has finally jumped way up the list in defensive yards per play. We'll see if it holds up in the meat of their schedule. Oklahoma led the nation in pass defense in their title upset year of 2000. The subsequent Sooner title game entrants were defensive frauds, particularly against the pass. Anyone embracing the stats was well aware of that while the subjective types didn't discern any difference. Alabama fell way off in defense the last two years but has finally restored to its prior suffocating level this year.

I mentioned here last season that Ohio State was the only team among the final four with a statistically top rated defense, even though they were seeded fourth. Florida State had dropped a full yard and a half per play from 2013 to 2014 and it was even worse than that on pass defense. Alabama and Oregon weren't very good in pass defense per play, either. The final result made gobs of sense.

Naturally there will be exceptions. I noted in 2010 that Auburn was allowing 7 yards per pass attempt. They didn't fit the blueprint but Cam Newton was special enough to barely overcome it, including a rally from 24-0 down at Alabama. It's hilarious that people expect any angle or any claim to run the table. More often than not. Find something that works more often than not and it's amazing how frequently the application works in your favor when it matters. Relying on exceptions spotlights fools.

I'd like to find a guy who will immediately fix the defensive yards allowed per pass attempt, and I'll take my chances everywhere else. That category aligns with sustained intensity and a rugged style. Harbaugh has Michigan 4th in the country in that stat this season, after mostly the same defenders were 44th last year.

 

[Cribby]

I'm still here scratching my head how this thread is showing how defense is more important than offense. When it clearly shows 9-12 on both sides.

And what's funny there's guys getting orgasmic over this stat, like it clearly shows one is dominant over the other.

It only shows one thing, talented teams with good offenses and defenses win titles.

 

[The Franchise]

It's not way ahead just because you keep repeating it's way ahead. And the reason is simple: we'll have more talent and impact players on the D roster next year. The talent on the DL should be absurd.

That's why I use stats and not just my opinion.

As for the DL, I have high hopes, but that's all they are for now. Brad Kaaya is proven and plays the most impactful position on the field.

Too much focus is being placed (IMO) on the singular statistic that makes this offense look like it's being held back by the defense. Earlier in the thread, you said the yards per play number shows that the offense has performed at a comparable level to the top teams. But it clearly hasn't. Points per play seems to provide a far more accurate reflection of our offense's performance (84th over the last 3 years in points per play compared to 10th in yards per play over the last 5 years).

Every other statistic shows it's a below average unit that's underperformed at a startling rate for years relative to the talent level. Our offensive line is as bad as it's been in my lifetime. We're ranked 113th in rushing offense despite having the most fertile recruiting ground for RBs in the entire country. Our third down offense is ranked in the 100s. Our red zone offense is ranked in the 70s and we score TDs just 47% of the time once we're inside the 20.

On one hand you can say our offense is closer to being good than the defense because of Brad Kaaya. The flipside of that, though, is that it's completely reasonable for certain fans to believe the following:

- Charlie Strong shouldn't be a top candidate given the woeful state of Texas' offense, his botching of their OC situation, and subsequent scapegoating of the playcaller he shouldn't have retained in the first place.
- James Coley cannot be retained as our OC.
- Hiring a defensive-minded coach who's a liability offensively for the third consecutive time continues to squander one of our program's greatest built-in advantages (abundance of difference making skill talent in our recruiting base).

When you finally land a QB of Kaaya's caliber, you don't want to see him handcuffed by a candidate with an alarmingly insufficient offensive track record. I agree with you that the defense is the greatest problem that needs to be fixed. But the offense is problem 1A, not the cartoon showing a coffee-drinking dog saying "this is fine" in a room engulfed in flames.

Tack this post to the top of the board and then close the tacked thread.

D$, are your ribs tough enough to tattoo this post on them? This dude's spitting truth right here. Pull your deeply entrenched heels out of the dirt, and tip your cap to him, D.

Wish I didn't make the mistake of assuming "Last 3" at TeamRankings.com was for years, not games. But I stand by my overall point. And our 2015 points per play ranking being in the 70s is still a stark contrast to the yards per play number over the last 5 years. It also provides a more accurate reflection of where this program currently stands (IMO) with Duke, Walford, Flowers, and Dorsett now in the NFL.

I don't give a **** about that error. The point of your post remains the same, and you're dead on accurate that points per play ranking best reflects the overall state of our offense. You have a giant pile of ****** offensive stats and then a decent yards per play stat. What's the outlier?

 

[Canez1]

I was going to post about defensive minded coaches but work kept getting in the way. If you look at our history of success and failure minus Golden and Randy because they were both in over their heads, defensive minded coaches have come in and laid the solid foundation for winning championships followed by offensive minded coaches that have returned things to rubble.

Huh?

Howard was an offensive guy. Out of 5 NCs, 4 were won with HCs with an offensive background.

I knew someone would bring up Schnelly. He is the exception. Although, I do wish he would have done for us stadium wise what he has done at every other school since leaving. You mentioned the 4 NCs but you clearly didn't comprehend with your big bold highlight what I said. Yes the offensive minded coaches won NCs with the talent left for them by Jimmy and Butch and then kindly proceeded to run the program into the ground.

And there is enough talent on this team left over from the Golden era to win immediately with an elite offensive coach.

And LOL at the suggestion that all offensive coaches ruin programs. The original creator of this program was an offensive coach.

Dude where in anything I said does it say all offensive coaches ruin programs? Try reading comprehension 101. I said our history here.

 

[weownfsu]

What was proven? Those teams had good offenses and good defenses. And all had the best talent , majority had the best coach. So what did we figure out?

Great talent with majority of the teams having great coaching. Wow.

Pretty deep stuff.

Look at how our offense stacks up compared to our defense. One is at a comparable level to the top teams. One is miles behind. That will probably surprise some people.

Of course, some will say this is just cherry-picking one stat. But the more you look into yards-per-play, the more you will appreciate its accuracy in measuring effectiveness.

I disagree. Our offense is not at a comparable level to top teams. Our offense is good at putting points up in bunches against average to bad defenses, but has the **** the bed for years whenever they've played a competent defense. They look unprepared, soft, and disorganized, and tend to turn the ball over and fail to capitalize on big plays. That's all a symptom of coaching. Our defense hasn't even been serviceable against bad teams. The new coach has a lot more work to do than just fixing one side of the ball.

UM's problems are not about one side of the ball. It's the same stuff we heard after Coker got fired. "All we need is a great OC and we'll be fine!!"

Second, anybody saying we "need" any specific type of coach other than a good one who is capable of getting both sides of the ball, and special teams, to look prepared, competent, and ready to compete at the highest level hasn't followed much college football.
Since 07 these guys have won titles:
Miles (offensive coach)
Meyer (offensive coach)
Saban (defensive coach)
Chizik (defensive coach)
Fisher (offensive coach)

All of these guys were able to field competent defenses AND offenses (except I'm pretty sure Auburn's defense was bad in 2010). It doesn't matter what side of the ball you coach on. If you're a good coach, and the type of coach that can get Miami a national title, you will be able to run a program that produces excellent offensive and defensive units and you won't be the type of guy whose entire program falls apart because you lose a coordinator. The focus on one side of the ball is nonsense. This program needs a lot of work. The offense hasn't competed at the highest level in more than a decade and the defense hasn't even been serviceable against abysmal teams since 2009.

 

[prinmemo]

We need to be great on both offense and defense. We are mediocre on O for very specific reasons and bad on D because our scheme is ****. We are closer to being great on O than D. How could anyone disagree with that?

 

[Consigliere]

Anything to make an argument for Pruitt or Strong.

 

[NVA CANE]

Once again Elmer Fudd won the NC guys.

Get the fence up and it don't matter who you bring in.

IMO this line of thinking is what got us in trouble.

Shannon was supposed to put the fence up. Golden, who was considered the best recruiter in the country, was supposed to put the fence up.


The fence ain't going back up. We'll always have a ton of talent, but we're not going to get them all (we never have). We need a smart head coach who can optimize talent. That's how you rebuild the brand.

This. Biggest myth is that Miami can win no matter the coach. We just experienced three different coaches and over a decade of evidence that indicates we need a good to great coach to get us to where we want to be. We are no different than any other program, we just have access to elite talent.

 

[bbcane]

The more I think about it. BBB

 

[JHallCanes]

Our recent string of coaches has been very offensive

 

[AUcane]

Once again Elmer Fudd won the NC guys.

Get the fence up and it don't matter who you bring in.

IMO this line of thinking is what got us in trouble.

Shannon was supposed to put the fence up. Golden, who was considered the best recruiter in the country, was supposed to put the fence up.


The fence ain't going back up. We'll always have a ton of talent, but we're not going to get them all (we never have). We need a smart head coach who can optimize talent. That's how you rebuild the brand.

This. Biggest myth is that Miami can win no matter the coach. We just experienced three different coaches and over a decade of evidence that indicates we need a good to great coach to get us to where we want to be. We are no different than any other program, we just have access to elite talent.

We don't need a fence, we just need to cherry pick the right guys from this area. Historically, throughout the 80s and 90s (and even early 00s), we were s team they was 60/70% floridians with about 80% of those from the tri county area. That represents roughly 50 guys from the sofla area. Ironically, golden skewed that number higher but he just wasn't signing the right guys imo

 

[Paranos]

There were enlightening posts in this thread.

Go Canes