College Football Hall of Fame

[Gatorhater]

You are a gentleman, sir. "Old hat" certainly makes a lot more sense than "old hate"!

I also share your concerns on the trend towards dictatorial rule, whether it be from the right or left. As a person who studied Roman history from a young age, the Romans had an early period of kings and a late period of emperors, and in-between the Republic had 2 consuls...unless it was an emergency, in which case they selected a dictator. That's about 1,200 years of strong-man rule, and nobody remembers what "political parties" were involved.

As for Hillary, I was primarily referring to the part about her getting 63 million votes, which would have been crazy talk 40 or 50 years ago.
)
Have a great evening!

Rome is a favorite study of mine also. The parallels between them and the US are strong with one major difference. Rome was dependent on outside sources(mostly the "empire") for food and essential rare materials. We are virtually self sufficient or can be as a matter of will. While unpopular with many, our carbon resources are unmatched with possible exception of Russia. With rare exception, we have adequate sources of all other minerals, including rare earth( we just choose to not refine them). Our food capacity knows no boundary(Rome starved once Egypt was cut off.) That said, many see us in decline.

I worry about dictatorship also. Socialism seems very inclined to it and the left in general want the bigger government required by it. The American voter seems to throw out each party after short stay in power - whether by intention or accident. This has helped. The culture of the leader cult is the threat. Ronnie, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all candidates. I was worried about Clinton refusing to leave and his popularity seemed a threat of that to me. Obama seems to have made significant plans for his extended rule that were foiled as a byproduct of the 2016 election. The threat is not one sided. I find myself terrified of the end of Trump's 8 yearscooland contemplate his just staying on with our armed support. But freedom is too valuable and rare to waste on any one leader. For that reason we must guard against all threats to it, from left, right or (like me) in between.

Good stuff. Maybe we will discuss Rome more later. It is our closest comparable. So far we have avoided it mistakes. Let's hope we continue.

 

[1LuvCane]

Rome is a favorite study of mine also. The parallels between them and the US are strong with one major difference. Rome was dependent on outside sources(mostly the "empire") for food and essential rare materials. We are virtually self sufficient or can be as a matter of will. While unpopular with many, our carbon resources are unmatched with possible exception of Russia. With rare exception, we have adequate sources of all other minerals, including rare earth( we just choose to not refine them). Our food capacity knows no boundary(Rome starved once Egypt was cut off.) That said, many see us in decline.

I worry about dictatorship also. Socialism seems very inclined to it and the left in general want the bigger government required by it. The American voter seems to throw out each party after short stay in power - whether by intention or accident. This has helped. The culture of the leader cult is the threat. Ronnie, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all candidates. I was worried about Clinton refusing to leave and his popularity seemed a threat of that to me. Obama seems to have made significant plans for his extended rule that were foiled as a byproduct of the 2016 election. The threat is not one sided. I find myself terrified of the end of Trump's 8 yearscooland contemplate his just staying on with our armed support. But freedom is too valuable and rare to waste on any one leader. For that reason we must guard against all threats to it, from left, right or (like me) in between.

Good stuff. Maybe we will discuss Rome more later. It is our closest comparable. So far we have avoided it mistakes. Let's hope we continue.

Brother, ive totally enjoyed your posts on this thread. Appreciate you sharing that knowledge....

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Rome is a favorite study of mine also. The parallels between them and the US are strong with one major difference. Rome was dependent on outside sources(mostly the "empire") for food and essential rare materials. We are virtually self sufficient or can be as a matter of will. While unpopular with many, our carbon resources are unmatched with possible exception of Russia. With rare exception, we have adequate sources of all other minerals, including rare earth( we just choose to not refine them). Our food capacity knows no boundary(Rome starved once Egypt was cut off.) That said, many see us in decline.

I worry about dictatorship also. Socialism seems very inclined to it and the left in general want the bigger government required by it. The American voter seems to throw out each party after short stay in power - whether by intention or accident. This has helped. The culture of the leader cult is the threat. Ronnie, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all candidates. I was worried about Clinton refusing to leave and his popularity seemed a threat of that to me. Obama seems to have made significant plans for his extended rule that were foiled as a byproduct of the 2016 election. The threat is not one sided. I find myself terrified of the end of Trump's 8 yearscooland contemplate his just staying on with our armed support. But freedom is too valuable and rare to waste on any one leader. For that reason we must guard against all threats to it, from left, right or (like me) in between.

Good stuff. Maybe we will discuss Rome more later. It is our closest comparable. So far we have avoided it mistakes. Let's hope we continue.

I agree with you on "raw materials" (food, crude oil, etc.), but I would say that we are very dependent on other countries for manufacturing capability. Hopefully we can reverse that in the future.

I would also just say that "socialism" can be mis-applied in certain contexts. For instance, it is true that the **** Party was CALLED National Socialists, but in reality they were fascists, not socialists. And fascism is defined as a far-right political ideology. The ***** were much more about the "Na" than the "zi".



Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.



The National Socialist German Workers' Party (abbreviated in German as NSDAP), commonly referred to in English as the **** Party, was a far-right political party in Germany that was active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of National Socialism. Its precursor, the German Workers' Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; DAP), existed from 1919 to 1920.

The **** Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture, which fought against the communist uprisings in post-World War I Germany. The party was created to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism. Initially, **** political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, although this was later downplayed to gain the support of business leaders, and in the 1930s the party's main focus shifted to antisemitic and anti-Marxist themes.

 

[Gatorhater]

I agree with you on "raw materials" (food, crude oil, etc.), but I would say that we are very dependent on other countries for manufacturing capability. Hopefully we can reverse that in the future.

I would also just say that "socialism" can be mis-applied in certain contexts. For instance, it is true that the **** Party was CALLED National Socialists, but in reality they were fascists, not socialists. And fascism is defined as a far-right political ideology. The ***** were much more about the "Na" than the "zi".



Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.



The National Socialist German Workers' Party (abbreviated in German as NSDAP), commonly referred to in English as the **** Party, was a far-right political party in Germany that was active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of National Socialism. Its precursor, the German Workers' Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; DAP), existed from 1919 to 1920.

The **** Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture, which fought against the communist uprisings in post-World War I Germany. The party was created to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism. Initially, **** political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, although this was later downplayed to gain the support of business leaders, and in the 1930s the party's main focus shifted to antisemitic and anti-Marxist themes.

Completely agree about manufacturing. We must take back our factories. Since Nixon we have betrayed but our government implementation of a very Roman like tribute system to put off confrontation with China - Pet policy of Henry Kissinger. They basically have been trading our jobs for peace without admitting it.

On the definition front, I understand the labels using applied to the various evils in the world. You have done your usual superior impectable work setting forth "facts". Allow me my spin. Left and right are basically original definitions dating from the French revolution and concerned religious issues. The right was the Catholic Church and the left was the atheists with groups forming in the middle between them. Forms of government ran from Monarchist on right to anarchist on extreme left. Mix in theories of economy and we have today's complexity with ownership of means of production at the heart. While fascist and ***** opposed communism they were in so many ways mere competitors for so many socialism ideals.

Communism seized the means of production to be owned by the government alone. Their cousins, the fascists and ***** let you keep the property but you must do what you were told with it -- giving rise to the thought they are combination of big business and big government. All of them we big government dictatorships with strong overwhelming socialist programs. Heck, Hitler even had a proper vegetarian diet for his people. All are opposed to religion and in particular the Catholic Church. Now communism ideal is more of a world wide or global system but nationalism tasies up in time of trouble for them also. It was Russian national pride, not the ghost of Marx and Lenin that slaughter all the ***** nationalist.

O would argue that China, although Communist in name, has made the transition to fascism to avoid the unsolved failures of Communism liek poverty and starvation. It doesn't take much imagination to see a strong national pride withing the Chinese people and the spirit of world conquest is barley hidden today. Communist/****, is there really a different other than who the priority of their target lists? Keep in mind that Churchill thought communism was not a true threat because, in his mind, it could not work and was destined to failure. Fascism, in his mind, could work and was therefore the real threat. Maybe China's long exposure to British Empire has influence them to agree with him.

Given the influence of communism in academia and the media, it is not surprising to see it out maneuver its cousins to gain a more favorable status. The NYT was masterful in how is jumped about it its treatment of Pope Pius XII vs Hitler and Stalin depending on whether USSR was allied or at war with each other. While Hitler and Stalin were "buddies" the Pope was basically an enemy of both and evil. Once ***** attack USSR the Pope became "the last shinning light is Europe". Once war was over, he got flipped to "Hitler's Pope".

I am enjoying our discussions and been meaning to ask you about Franchise. I saw your mention of him being excellent attorney. I did not know he was one. Did he also graduate from Miami Law?

 

[Gatorhater]

Brother, ive totally enjoyed your posts on this thread. Appreciate you sharing that knowledge....

Thank you. It seems you and I agree about much and I know you have issues with TheOriginalCane(he doesn't let anything slide so who hasn't), but he puts forth good sound positions and is a worthy debater. I would expect nothing less from any Cane brother. One thing you got to love about him, he never gets tired of the contest.

 

[1LuvCane]

Thank you. It seems you and I agree about much and I know you have issues with TheOriginalCane(he doesn't let anything slide so who hasn't), but he puts forth good sound positions and is a worthy debater. I would expect nothing less from any Cane brother. One thing you got to love about him, he never gets tired of the contest.

I tip my hat from a far....

 

[JennStrawley’sBabyDaddy]

Didn't read all the posts before this, but any word on them finding Miami's 02 national championship trophy? It was stolen.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Completely agree about manufacturing. We must take back our factories. Since Nixon we have betrayed but our government implementation of a very Roman like tribute system to put off confrontation with China - Pet policy of Henry Kissinger. They basically have been trading our jobs for peace without admitting it.

On the definition front, I understand the labels using applied to the various evils in the world. You have done your usual superior impectable work setting forth "facts". Allow me my spin. Left and right are basically original definitions dating from the French revolution and concerned religious issues. The right was the Catholic Church and the left was the atheists with groups forming in the middle between them. Forms of government ran from Monarchist on right to anarchist on extreme left. Mix in theories of economy and we have today's complexity with ownership of means of production at the heart. While fascist and ***** opposed communism they were in so many ways mere competitors for so many socialism ideals.

Communism seized the means of production to be owned by the government alone. Their cousins, the fascists and ***** let you keep the property but you must do what you were told with it -- giving rise to the thought they are combination of big business and big government. All of them we big government dictatorships with strong overwhelming socialist programs. Heck, Hitler even had a proper vegetarian diet for his people. All are opposed to religion and in particular the Catholic Church. Now communism ideal is more of a world wide or global system but nationalism tasies up in time of trouble for them also. It was Russian national pride, not the ghost of Marx and Lenin that slaughter all the ***** nationalist.

O would argue that China, although Communist in name, has made the transition to fascism to avoid the unsolved failures of Communism liek poverty and starvation. It doesn't take much imagination to see a strong national pride withing the Chinese people and the spirit of world conquest is barley hidden today. Communist/****, is there really a different other than who the priority of their target lists? Keep in mind that Churchill thought communism was not a true threat because, in his mind, it could not work and was destined to failure. Fascism, in his mind, could work and was therefore the real threat. Maybe China's long exposure to British Empire has influence them to agree with him.

Given the influence of communism in academia and the media, it is not surprising to see it out maneuver its cousins to gain a more favorable status. The NYT was masterful in how is jumped about it its treatment of Pope Pius XII vs Hitler and Stalin depending on whether USSR was allied or at war with each other. While Hitler and Stalin were "buddies" the Pope was basically an enemy of both and evil. Once ***** attack USSR the Pope became "the last shinning light is Europe". Once war was over, he got flipped to "Hitler's Pope".

I am enjoying our discussions and been meaning to ask you about Franchise. I saw your mention of him being excellent attorney. I did not know he was one. Did he also graduate from Miami Law?

I pretty much agree with your points, historical and political, and the sum of all my "differences" is probably negligible. The only thing I would add is that communism pretty much tends to be...communism, while socialism has several distinct variants which are very different, including the democratic socialism with adopts many market economy characteristics, which is very close to what we have in the US.

As for Pius XII (I am Catholic), the Vatican had just opened his papal archives to academics a couple of months before the pandemic. I would be very interested to see the results of the research, whether it helps or hurts Pius and whatever position he did or didn't take on the ***** during WWII.

 

[1LuvCane]

Didn't read all the posts before this, but any word on them finding Miami's 02 national championship trophy? It was stolen.

First thing tbe looters went for. They heard it was invaluable...

 

[Gatorhater]

I pretty much agree with your points, historical and political, and the sum of all my "differences" is probably negligible. The only thing I would add is that communism pretty much tends to be...communism, while socialism has several distinct variants which are very different, including the democratic socialism with adopts many market economy characteristics, which is very close to what we have in the US.

As for Pius XII (I am Catholic), the Vatican had just opened his papal archives to academics a couple of months before the pandemic. I would be very interested to see the results of the research, whether it helps or hurts Pius and whatever position he did or didn't take on the ***** during WWII.

I am also Catholic and suspect it will show a bit of a mixed bag. The Chief Rabbi of Rome spent much of the war hiding "under the Pope's" and Hitler made no bones about the Pope being the biggest enemy. Then again he operated without and secular protection in the most hostile of circumstances so one does not know the compromises made. Also, there could well be stuff about helping ***** escape post war. That might well have been hand in hand with US requests for some of them because to the cold war to come. It will be interesting but truth has died and we will be left to figure out the validity of what is said.

I am having trouble with Pope Francis. Can't quite wrap myself around why and how a supposedly extremely humble man chooses one ot the two name no pope before him dare to take. St. Francis refused ordination as a priest because he felt he was not worthy. Then again I am not a very trusting person. Pax Tecum.

 

[1LuvCane]

I am also Catholic and suspect it will show a bit of a mixed bag. The Chief Rabbi of Rome spent much of the war hiding "under the Pope's" and Hitler made no bones about the Pope being the biggest enemy. Then again he operated without and secular protection in the most hostile of circumstances so one does not know the compromises made. Also, there could well be stuff about helping ***** escape post war. That might well have been hand in hand with US requests for some of them because to the cold war to come. It will be interesting but truth has died and we will be left to figure out the validity of what is said.

I am having trouble with Pope Francis. Can't quite wrap myself around why and how a supposedly extremely humble man chooses one ot the two name no pope before him dare to take. St. Francis refused ordination as a priest because he felt he was not worthy. Then again I am not a very trusting person. Pax Tecum.

And with his spirit...
Amen. I take pride in my parents instilling strong Vatican 2 values in my life.

 

[Gatorhater]

And with his spirit...
Amen. I take pride in my parents instilling strong Vatican 2 values in my life.

Man, Catholics under every stone here. I still attend the Mass from the 1962 Missal of Pope John XXIII, now the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, or for short, the Latin Mass. Once the Priest got re-orientated toward the people instead of God, the New Oder Mass became unbearable for me. The older Mass is much more spiritual, especially when sung in Latin. I am old enough for it to have been the Mass of all my Sacraments except Marriage so going back to it was smooth. We still attend the occasional New Order Mass in the early morning before a choir takes over control. It is still peaceful enough for contemplative prayer.

Although both Masses are valid, it concerns me to now end that when I took each off our adult children they all said it was like too different Religions. Faith requires me to profess both as valid but if they are indeed different religions then one is only be around since the 70's the 1970's whereas the other has been around for centuries on end. Had to stop thinking about it because the only logical conclusion was horrible.

Between my Canes and The Faith, I am locked into the past. Oh well, I my age is finally catching up my views. Although our Latin Mass is now mostly young families and the New Order seems full of baby boomers like myself. I never did fit in.

 

[1LuvCane]

Man, Catholics under every stone here. I still attend the Mass from the 1962 Missal of Pope John XXIII, now the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, or for short, the Latin Mass. Once the Priest got re-orientated toward the people instead of God, the New Oder Mass became unbearable for me. The older Mass is much more spiritual, especially when sung in Latin. I am old enough for it to have been the Mass of all my Sacraments except Marriage so going back to it was smooth. We still attend the occasional New Order Mass in the early morning before a choir takes over control. It is still peaceful enough for contemplative prayer.

Although both Masses are valid, it concerns me to now end that when I took each off our adult children they all said it was like too different Religions. Faith requires me to profess both as valid but if they are indeed different religions then one is only be around since the 70's the 1970's whereas the other has been around for centuries on end. Had to stop thinking about it because the only logical conclusion was horrible.

Between my Canes and The Faith, I am locked into the past. Oh well, I my age is finally catching up my views. Although our Latin Mass is now mostly young families and the New Order seems full of baby boomers like myself. I never did fit in.

I totally understand your perspective. The human mind is complicated. The idea is to be satisfied spiritually. You found what works. I respect the old way immensely. I just never experienced it habitually. Being connected to the Lord is essential and you found away to make it connect personally. Its about being immersed in it not doing it for traditional sake.

 

[Empirical Cane]

Rome is a favorite study of mine also. The parallels between them and the US are strong with one major difference. Rome was dependent on outside sources(mostly the "empire") for food and essential rare materials. We are virtually self sufficient or can be as a matter of will. While unpopular with many, our carbon resources are unmatched with possible exception of Russia. With rare exception, we have adequate sources of all other minerals, including rare earth( we just choose to not refine them). Our food capacity knows no boundary(Rome starved once Egypt was cut off.) That said, many see us in decline.

I worry about dictatorship also. Socialism seems very inclined to it and the left in general want the bigger government required by it. The American voter seems to throw out each party after short stay in power - whether by intention or accident. This has helped. The culture of the leader cult is the threat. Ronnie, Bill Clinton, and Obama were all candidates. I was worried about Clinton refusing to leave and his popularity seemed a threat of that to me. Obama seems to have made significant plans for his extended rule that were foiled as a byproduct of the 2016 election. The threat is not one sided. I find myself terrified of the end of Trump's 8 yearscooland contemplate his just staying on with our armed support. But freedom is too valuable and rare to waste on any one leader. For that reason we must guard against all threats to it, from left, right or (like me) in between.

Good stuff. Maybe we will discuss Rome more later. It is our closest comparable. So far we have avoided it mistakes. Let's hope we continue.

 

[Empirical Cane]

Thank you. It seems you and I agree about much and I know you have issues with TheOriginalCane(he doesn't let anything slide so who hasn't), but he puts forth good sound positions and is a worthy debater. I would expect nothing less from any Cane brother. One thing you got to love about him, he never gets tired of the contest.

or losing. it's a super power of his.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

or losing. it's a super power of his.

I remain undefeated. But keep tryin', Mr. Appropriations.

 

[Gatorhater]

View attachment 118221

so much the same but there are differences that favor us, not the lease of which we are much younger in our world power stage. It is note worthy that we are fighting Iran which under different names battled Rome for ages. We are still trying to keep the Republic. Rome fell into dictatorship and reached its greatest point in it and then its downfall.

We are still amazingly powerful although not unchallenged. Funny, the world seems to be cheering our downfall. It fails to remember what happened when Rome fell -- the Dark Ages. Technologies and engineering common place during the Empire, like concrete regular and naval, indoor plumbing, running water and so many other things were forgotten and took centuries to be "rediscovered". I guess the thought is the China will just pick up where we leave off like we did replacing the British Empire. That ignores many factors. Heck Britain might be Rome and we might be the Eastern Empire/Constantinople which lasted about a 1000 years longer. I don't think China can replace us. Destroy us, maybe but replace, not such an easy task. Stealing our ideas and coming up with your own are different things. Who knows.

 

[1LuvCane]

Full of **** meter just went off...
**** cfbhof. You've ruined everything!!!

 

[Empirical Cane]

so much the same but there are differences that favor us, not the lease of which we are much younger in our world power stage. It is note worthy that we are fighting Iran which under different names battled Rome for ages. We are still trying to keep the Republic. Rome fell into dictatorship and reached its greatest point in it and then its downfall.

We are still amazingly powerful although not unchallenged. Funny, the world seems to be cheering our downfall. It fails to remember what happened when Rome fell -- the Dark Ages. Technologies and engineering common place during the Empire, like concrete regular and naval, indoor plumbing, running water and so many other things were forgotten and took centuries to be "rediscovered". I guess the thought is the China will just pick up where we leave off like we did replacing the British Empire. That ignores many factors. Heck Britain might be Rome and we might be the Eastern Empire/Constantinople which lasted about a 1000 years longer. I don't think China can replace us. Destroy us, maybe but replace, not such an easy task. Stealing our ideas and coming up with your own are different things. Who knows.

I would offer it wasn't Roman dictatorship--although big factor for sure because it was incompetent as well--but their inability to integrate Britain and Germanic territories as truly "Roman". If they had done that....WATCH OUT...

The colonial world powers repeated the same failure (personified by English Empire) and then immediately followed by USSR. Staggering stupidity for all of them that is now not only being repeated here in US, but encouraged and cheered for.

 

[Gatorhater]

I totally understand your perspective. The human mind is complicated. The idea is to be satisfied spiritually. You found what works. I respect the old way immensely. I just never experienced it habitually. Being connected to the Lord is essential and you found away to make it connect personally. Its about being immersed in it not doing it for traditional sake.

Well, that is one school of thought. Christ sent down some very specific things required for enteral like. I tend to be a checklist type of person. Spirituality is wonderful and I love it, but the to do list Christ left never leaves my thoughts. There are some real difficult ones. That love your enemy is a *****. I mean, gators - seriously!