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One problem I see is that neither side is willing to compromise. They see their position as morally superior so any negotiation validates their opponent and projects weakness.

@Gatorhater, you never fail to impress me.
 
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Gatorhater said:
Well, that is one school of thought. Christ sent down some very specific things required for enteral like. I tend to be a checklist type of person. Spirituality is wonderful and I love it, but the to do list Christ left never leaves my thoughts. There are some real difficult ones. That love your enemy is a *****. I mean, gators - seriously!
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No doubt...
 
Gatorhater said:
Man, Catholics under every stone here. I still attend the Mass from the 1962 Missal of Pope John XXIII, now the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, or for short, the Latin Mass. Once the Priest got re-orientated toward the people instead of God, the New Oder Mass became unbearable for me. The older Mass is much more spiritual, especially when sung in Latin. I am old enough for it to have been the Mass of all my Sacraments except Marriage so going back to it was smooth. We still attend the occasional New Order Mass in the early morning before a choir takes over control. It is still peaceful enough for contemplative prayer.

Although both Masses are valid, it concerns me to now end that when I took each off our adult children they all said it was like too different Religions. Faith requires me to profess both as valid but if they are indeed different religions then one is only be around since the 70's the 1970's whereas the other has been around for centuries on end. Had to stop thinking about it because the only logical conclusion was horrible.

Between my Canes and The Faith, I am locked into the past. Oh well, I my age is finally catching up my views. Although our Latin Mass is now mostly young families and the New Order seems full of baby boomers like myself. I never did fit in.
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Lots of tough issues bundled in there.

My dad's family was super-Catholic, 8 kids in 9 years, 4 girls named Mary, they had a houseful of relics. They all grew up with Latin mass. I took Latin in HS, so I could hang with it.

But there was also a component of distance, of the priest having to be the point-guard of everything, very similar to the Pharisees/Saducees in the old days. There has been a lot of good (and bad) since the King James translation of the Bible into English.

I appreciate having things in my native language. But I can also acknowledge how impressive the mass can be when done in Latin.

Tough decision for me, I'm not as tied to the Latin from the "this is how I first learned it" standpoint. But I recently went back to the church where I grew up, and even in the English language version, they have changed certain words around. Even weirder, it doesn't seem like the English language word changes have improved the grammar or clarified the vocabulary in most cases. Strange.
 
Empirical Cane said:
I would offer it wasn't Roman dictatorship--although big factor for sure because it was incompetent as well--but their inability to integrate Britain and Germanic territories as truly "Roman".

The colonial world powers repeated the same failure (personified by English Empire) and then immediately followed by USSR. Staggering stupidity for all of them that is now not only being repeated here in US, but encouraged and cheered for.
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Excellent points. Rome needed Britain for its tin. The Germans just refuse to behave and Rome need loot as part of its economic system and they just refused to stay conquered plus were too poor to be worth the trouble. We do not need empire for resources and should be able to figure out the cost of empire is not sustainable or worth it. What I like most about Trump is that he seems to understand endless wars are bad.

I've come full 180 from the days I cheered the National Guard at Kent state. Now I only want DECLARED wars fought WWII style -- slaughter the enemy so they never want to fight you again. Okay, I'm not sure that is 180, certainly not a pacifist. The globalists have us on the road to destruction while we protect the global rich and powerful. I have no problem maintaining the ability to project power we should remember Washington's warning about avoiding foreign entanglements.
 
Gatorhater said:
Excellent points. Rome needed Britain for its tin. The Germans just refuse to behave and Rome need loot as part of its economic system and they just refused to stay conquered plus were too poor to be worth the trouble. We do not need empire for resources and should be able to figure out the cost of empire is not sustainable or worth it. What I like most about Trump is that he seems to understand endless wars are bad.

I've come full 180 from the days I cheered the National Guard at Kent state. Now I only want DECLARED wars fought WWII style -- slaughter the enemy so they never want to fight you again. Okay, I'm not sure that is 180, certainly not a pacifist. The globalists have us on the road to destruction while we protect the global rich and powerful. I have no problem maintaining the ability to project power we should remember Washington's warning about avoiding foreign entanglements.
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Keep talking like this, and muppetopians will descend upon you here. Their arrows will blot out the Sun. They will make grand super hero landings and even throw in a **** or 5 million.

It's just do much fun fighting in the shade!

😃
 
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Empirical Cane said:
Keep talking like this, and muppetopians will descend upon you here. Their arrows will blot out the Sun. They will make grand super hero landings and even throw in a **** or 5 million.

It's just do much fun fighting in the shade!

😃
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Hes good Muppet Master. TOC already gave him the *** kiss of approval. Hater has the cloak of immunity...
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Lots of tough issues bundled in there.

My dad's family was super-Catholic, 8 kids in 9 years, 4 girls named Mary, they had a houseful of relics. They all grew up with Latin mass. I took Latin in HS, so I could hang with it.

But there was also a component of distance, of the priest having to be the point-guard of everything, very similar to the Pharisees/Saducees in the old days. There has been a lot of good (and bad) since the King James translation of the Bible into English.

I appreciate having things in my native language. But I can also acknowledge how impressive the mass can be when done in Latin.

Tough decision for me, I'm not as tied to the Latin from the "this is how I first learned it" standpoint. But I recently went back to the church where I grew up, and even in the English language version, they have changed certain words around. Even weirder, it doesn't seem like the English language word changes have improved the grammar or clarified the vocabulary in most cases. Strange.
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I grew up is mixed marriage home. Mom was Italian Catholic and dad Southern Methodist. Back then, you married a Catholic you agreed to the children being raised Catholic and dad complied. That did not keep him from taking every shot he could like a good klan type would. He always claimed they threw him out because he married an Italian Catholic from New York -- I never could tell which was the greater offense. When I asked dad why he married her, he said: "Boy, she was cute!" Wise words. I got him back. He died in my arms years later but not before I had priest give him Catholic Baptism and then we buried the poor guy in Catholic cemetery just feet away from his Italian mother in law.

Mom had the nine kids family and had six herself. Catholic churches were not common place in South Florida back then and I was the only kid to attend Catholic school. Siblings varied in devotions and my own had a few ups and downs. I took Latin also. Hated it and still not very good at it, but then it comes to liturgist chant and song, the language of the Angels is supreme. Some songs and chants, especially ones about The Blessed Mother sung by women, will lift you from the pew. English is great for country and rock but hearing priest chant in English is painful.

I agree about the abuse of words in the vernacular. I remember the day I first realized then had changed the Consecration from "will be shed for many" to "all". Thankfully Rome finally forced change to the US translations. That is one of the major secular problems using vernacular, it is easy to change words. I have heard priests ad lib words even from those.

About the priest being point-guard, I like that play. Thing is that the Mass is the Priest's Mass. Vatican II tried some things to involved us in the Mass more but we still are merely join in the celebration. No priest, no Mass. As we found out the last couple months, the Mass goes on without us.
 
Gatorhater said:
I grew up is mixed marriage home. Mom was Italian Catholic and dad Southern Methodist. Back then, you married a Catholic you agreed to the children being raised Catholic and dad complied. That did not keep him from taking every shot he could like a good klan type would. He always claimed they threw him out because he married an Italian Catholic from New York -- I never could tell which was the greater offense. When I asked dad why he married her, he said: "Boy, she was cute!" Wise words. I got him back. He died in my arms years later but not before I had priest give him Catholic Baptism and then we buried the poor guy in Catholic cemetery just feet away from his Italian mother in law.

Mom had the nine kids family and had six herself. Catholic churches were not common place in South Florida back then and I was the only kid to attend Catholic school. Siblings varied in devotions and my own had a few ups and downs. I took Latin also. Hated it and still not very good at it, but then it comes to liturgist chant and song, the language of the Angels is supreme. Some songs and chants, especially ones about The Blessed Mother sung by women, will lift you from the pew. English is great for country and rock but hearing priest chant in English is painful.

I agree about the abuse of words in the vernacular. I remember the day I first realized then had changed the Consecration from "will be shed for many" to "all". Thankfully Rome finally forced change to the US translations. That is one of the major secular problems using vernacular, it is easy to change words. I have heard priests ad lib words even from those.

About the priest being point-guard, I like that play. Thing is that the Mass is the Priest's Mass. Vatican II tried some things to involved us in the Mass more but we still are merely join in the celebration. No priest, no Mass. As we found out the last couple months, the Mass goes on without us.
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It missed a key comcept of Catholicism. The recieving of the sacraments. Especially the Eucharist in community with our fellow congregants...
 
Gatorhater said:
I grew up is mixed marriage home. Mom was Italian Catholic and dad Southern Methodist. Back then, you married a Catholic you agreed to the children being raised Catholic and dad complied. That did not keep him from taking every shot he could like a good klan type would. He always claimed they threw him out because he married an Italian Catholic from New York -- I never could tell which was the greater offense. When I asked dad why he married her, he said: "Boy, she was cute!" Wise words. I got him back. He died in my arms years later but not before I had priest give him Catholic Baptism and then we buried the poor guy in Catholic cemetery just feet away from his Italian mother in law.

Mom had the nine kids family and had six herself. Catholic churches were not common place in South Florida back then and I was the only kid to attend Catholic school. Siblings varied in devotions and my own had a few ups and downs. I took Latin also. Hated it and still not very good at it, but then it comes to liturgist chant and song, the language of the Angels is supreme. Some songs and chants, especially ones about The Blessed Mother sung by women, will lift you from the pew. English is great for country and rock but hearing priest chant in English is painful.

I agree about the abuse of words in the vernacular. I remember the day I first realized then had changed the Consecration from "will be shed for many" to "all". Thankfully Rome finally forced change to the US translations. That is one of the major secular problems using vernacular, it is easy to change words. I have heard priests ad lib words even from those.

About the priest being point-guard, I like that play. Thing is that the Mass is the Priest's Mass. Vatican II tried some things to involved us in the Mass more but we still are merely join in the celebration. No priest, no Mass. As we found out the last couple months, the Mass goes on without us.
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I have no problem with priest-as-point-guard for the mass itself. I was talking about, in the bigger picture, every other aspect of spiritual guidance. Let's not forget, at one point, most people were unable to read/write, and there were very few printed books. Heck, the invention of the printing press was highly motivated by a desire to print Bibles more quickly.

The Bible does not require the priest or rabbi to be an intermediary for one's faith and belief. That is more of a construct of man.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
I have no problem with priest-as-point-guard for the mass itself. I was talking about, in the bigger picture, every other aspect of spiritual guidance. Let's not forget, at one point, most people were unable to read/write, and there were very few printed books. Heck, the invention of the printing press was highly motivated by a desire to print Bibles more quickly.

The Bible does not require the priest or rabbi to be an intermediary for one's faith and belief. That is more of a construct of man.
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Like every discussion with my new friend, it can be endless. I love it. Not prepared to relive the Protestant Revolt this afternoon but certainly another day. Just short note, Bible, that is Christ's words in same, clearly gave certain "keys" to a select group of people and again to do certain things. I do believe Christ place himself as intermediary to The Father but nothing in Bible or the source of same, The Church, prohibits or claims sole voice to God.
So you are correct but the Mass is more than that. It is the source of one of the things Christ set down as required for salvation: His Body and Blood. Prayer and recourse to The Almighty the are free to all and nothing in the Catholic Faith says otherwise.

I myself prefer an little help from the source that the Good Book set forth. While I dial direct frequently, I find myself calling on Our Blessed Mother to intercede in the most serious of matters. I assume that if she can get endless supply of wine, she has the inside tract with her Son. Spiritually, I have found Christ to be a little like the older brother that He is. Mom on the other hand is well, Mom. I am the baby in my family and like the easy road.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
I agree with you on "raw materials" (food, crude oil, etc.), but I would say that we are very dependent on other countries for manufacturing capability. Hopefully we can reverse that in the future.

I would also just say that "socialism" can be mis-applied in certain contexts. For instance, it is true that the **** Party was CALLED National Socialists, but in reality they were fascists, not socialists. And fascism is defined as a far-right political ideology. The ***** were much more about the "Na" than the "zi".



Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.



The National Socialist German Workers' Party (abbreviated in German as NSDAP), commonly referred to in English as the **** Party, was a far-right political party in Germany that was active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of National Socialism. Its precursor, the German Workers' Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; DAP), existed from 1919 to 1920.

The **** Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture, which fought against the communist uprisings in post-World War I Germany. The party was created to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism. Initially, **** political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, although this was later downplayed to gain the support of business leaders, and in the 1930s the party's main focus shifted to antisemitic and anti-Marxist themes.
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Readers should be advised that the definition of Fascism in this post is taken directly from Wikipedia. Whether you trust that site is up to you. Many historians and political academics disagree with the characterization of fasicism as "far-right." Many consider the difference between communism and fascism (which are both socialist systems) to be with regard to the ownership of the means of production. In Communism, the Party "takes over" (owns) the factory (the property) and makes what it wants. In Fascism, the factory is allowed to remain privately held, but the central govt. tells the factory to make toasters on Monday, guns on Tuesday and bullets on Wednesday. They call it "regulation." In the United States, democratic socialism more closely resembles national socialism (fascism) than communism. You can figure out for yourself which political party in the U.S. always wants more regulation.
Part of the article is true. The part where the fascists focused on anti-business, anti-middle class, and anti-capitalism to gain popularity. Same as today.
I'm not hijacking this thread. I'm not changing the trend of it. Please continue on. I'm done posting on it. It's just that some things don't deserve to remain uncontested . . . Don't let anyone else do your thinking for you . . .
 
1LuvCane said:
It missed a key comcept of Catholicism. The recieving of the sacraments. Especially the Eucharist in community with our fellow congregants...
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I've been furious at our Bishops for their denial of The Host to us during this virus. No excuse for it. They can excuse us from duty to attend Mass for a while but The Body and Blood of The Lord a different matter. t was scandal. One Parrish near us at least had drive up Confession. I was stunned to find out it was about the only one. In my life I have never been embarrass to be a Catholic. I am not sure I can say that now. Spin is second nature to me but if hired, I doubt even I could find a defense. FL had religion as essential services the entire time, so can't say they caved to the overwhelming police power of the state.
Empirical Cane said:
Keep talking like this, and muppetopians will descend upon you here. Their arrows will blot out the Sun. They will make grand super hero landings and even throw in a **** or 5 million.

It's just do much fun fighting in the shade!

😃
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Great movie line. Not sure of the historic truth but maybe. It does sound like a Spartan.
 
Gatorhater said:
so much the same but there are differences that favor us, not the lease of which we are much younger in our world power stage. It is note worthy that we are fighting Iran which under different names battled Rome for ages. We are still trying to keep the Republic. Rome fell into dictatorship and reached its greatest point in it and then its downfall.

We are still amazingly powerful although not unchallenged. Funny, the world seems to be cheering our downfall. It fails to remember what happened when Rome fell -- the Dark Ages. Technologies and engineering common place during the Empire, like concrete regular and naval, indoor plumbing, running water and so many other things were forgotten and took centuries to be "rediscovered". I guess the thought is the China will just pick up where we leave off like we did replacing the British Empire. That ignores many factors. Heck Britain might be Rome and we might be the Eastern Empire/Constantinople which lasted about a 1000 years longer. I don't think China can replace us. Destroy us, maybe but replace, not such an easy task. Stealing our ideas and coming up with your own are different things. Who knows.
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Touche sir, you know your history. Rome became too big to manage and made too many enemies. We don't go around butchering people in the sake of expansion then enslaving their people. They were fighting an invasion, from different armies, on multiple fronts. Not to mention Atilla collapsing their economy by making them pay him every time he took one of their cities. All empires fall or become something else. We will one day too. The fall of Rome set mankind back hundreds of years.

We have on huge strategic advantage though. All of the world's powers would have to travel a long distance to invade our lands. It's not like Rome where they were surrounded by their enemies. I'd say the republic is more at risk from within at this point.
 
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imyrhuckleberry said:
Readers should be advised that the definition of Fascism in this post is taken directly from Wikipedia. Whether you trust that site is up to you. Many historians and political academics disagree with the characterization of fasicism as "far-right." Many consider the difference between communism and fascism (which are both socialist systems) to be with regard to the ownership of the means of production. In Communism, the Party "takes over" (owns) the factory (the property) and makes what it wants. In Fascism, the factory is allowed to remain privately held, but the central govt. tells the factory to make toasters on Monday, guns on Tuesday and bullets on Wednesday. They call it "regulation." In the United States, democratic socialism more closely resembles national socialism (fascism) than communism. You can figure out for yourself which political party in the U.S. always wants more regulation.
Part of the article is true. The part where the fascists focused on anti-business, anti-middle class, and anti-capitalism to gain popularity. Same as today.
I'm not hijacking this thread. I'm not changing the trend of it. Please continue on. I'm done posting on it. It's just that some things don't deserve to remain uncontested . . . Don't let anyone else do your thinking for you . . .
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Oh lord, here we go again with a triggered MAGA snowflake.

"Readers should be advised". What a joke. Yeah, I took the definition from Wikipedia, and if you don't like it, you can go edit it. I gave people something short and simple to read, unless you want the textbook definition from a Political Science textbook.

"Whether you trust the site is up to you." WAAAAAH. Yeah, we know that right-wing historians and political academics "disagree with the characterization" of fascism as far-right. Of course they do.

Fascism is not, nor has it ever been, a "socialist system".

The word "fascism" comes from the Latin word "fasces" referring to the bound bundle of rods with an axe blade (look on the back of a US dime for a picture), which symbolized power in Rome.

The Italians invented Fascism. In the 1920s, the Italian Fascists described their ideology as right-wing in the political program The Doctrine of Fascism, stating: "We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right,' a fascist century".

And, sure, you are going to try to equate "National Socialism" (Nazism) with fascism, but there are a few differences. Not the least of which is that Hitler tossed in the word "Socialism" to appeal to the masses (which you actually agree with), even though what he did in Germany had very little to do with Socialism and had nearly everything to do with Nationalism and Fascism. Hitler wasn't telling people to make toasters on Monday, he was building weapons and gas chambers all day every day.

And you clearly have no idea what the word "regulation" means. It does not mean, nor has it ever meant, centralized production decisions.

Enjoy the video of your fellow triggered snowflake buddy:

 
Usafcane88 said:
Touche sir, you know your history. Rome became too big to manage and made too many enemies. We don't go around butchering people in the sake of expansion then enslaving their people. They were fighting an invasion, from different armies, on multiple fronts. Not to mention Atilla collapsing their economy by making them pay him every time he took one of their cities. All empires fall or become something else. We will one day too. The fall of Rome set mankind back hundreds of years.

We have on huge strategic advantage though. All of the world's powers would have to travel a long distance to invade our lands. It's not like Rome where they were surrounded by their enemies. I'd say the republic is more at risk from within at this point.
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Rome became too big to manage? The Empire had the same enemies for 500 years and was at its largest under Trajan, around 100 AD. The Empire didn't fall for another 350 years.

The real issue was the loss of Roman virtues. At one time, it was an honor/privilege to be a Roman citizen, and the requirements of military service and (often) public service were proud elements of what it meant to be "Roman". By the late Empire, most "actual" Roman citizens (the ones living near Rome) were wealthy and able to buy their way out of military service, often enlisting a foreigner to serve in his place for the promise of (overly-promised) Roman citizenship.

As for "we don't go around butchering people in the sake of expansion then enslaving their people", while you may be technically correct, Americans accomplished the same thing in two separate steps. We absolutely butchered the American Indians for expansion, and we absolutely enslaved hundreds of thousands of African slaves (as well as very low-paid Asian near-slaves to build our railroads).

Sadly, America is a much a much closer parallel to Rome than we would like to admit.
 
Rome might still be an empire if Maximus hadn’t been killed in the coliseum. Facts.
 
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