forums

5-star WR Calvin Russell commits to [checks notes] Syracuse? For real, though... Syracuse

View as article
GOAT is a relative term and needs to be separated into body of work and talent.
Obviously you have talent in order to have a body of work to be considered one of the goats.
But if you had to start a team or make a roster for a must win game then who do you put on it.

Cause if I have to make sure I have a dude that’s gonna come through and get you serious yardage no matter who is out there defending…….
Most people are gonna put Moss or megatron out there.

Now if you want to build a dynasty you start expanding that list to dudes like Rice and Fitzgerald, Jones etc. Megatron can be a dude you add for both.

But if I had one game for a billion dollars to the winner?
Rand University all day imo.

I mean they literally coined a term out of his last name.
Nobody gets riced, nobody gets, megatroned, they get mossed.
 
Advertisement
TakeitinDiaz said:
I don’t know. I bet a few people would argue Rae carruth as the scariest wr
Click to expand...
IMG_5364.jpeg
 
DMoney said:
Shaq is a good comparison. They were both uniquely dominant.

But is Shaq considered the best center ever? When we’re talking about the absolute best players of all time, it’s hard to justify taking somebody with glaring holes in their mental game.

Moss openly quit in Oakland. He admitted it. Calvin, Fitz and Andre spent their whole careers in dysfunctional organizations and never took a play off. If I’m picking between the greatest talents ever to play the position, give me those guys instead of a dude with 5% more pure ability.
Click to expand...
It's absolutely a fair question to ask who you would rather have as a teammate. But that is a very different question than who was the most athletically dominant.
  • Rice is definitely the GOAT when it comes to WR careers; zero argument there.
  • Calvin was incredible but never really moved the needle for that franchise, even with Stafford at the helm. I would say the same with Andre.
  • Fitz was an incredible HOF player who I always wanted in purple (hometown guy who was a ballboy for the Vikings when Moss played there) and absolutely is in the discussion, but he was more limited from an athletic standpoint.
But if you ask who kept defensive coordinators up at night? Who could scare you with average QBs and dominate with a competent QB? Who was a TD threat every single play? Who could go for 3 catches for 163 and 3 TDs in Dallas on Thanksgiving? That was Moss.

In a basketball analogy I'm calling Rice was to Tim Duncan as Moss is to Durant. One was dominant in a less flashy way and the other was an uber-talent who got in his own way more than anyone slowing him.
 
Fitz is not in the same ballpark as Randy, Jerry, and Calvin.

He's obviously an all-time great. But when you get to literal GOAT conversations, you have to split hairs.

He led the league in catches twice. He led the league in TDs twice. He was a first-team All-Pro once.

Randy led the league in TDs five times. He was first-team All-Pro 4 times. He was in the Top 5 in OPOY voting 3 times.

Calvin only played 9 seasons and was first-team All-Pro three times.

Rice is obviously the statistical GOAT.

For me, it's those 3 and then everyone else, including Larry.
 
Advertisement
CreativeCane said:
It's absolutely a fair question to ask who you would rather have as a teammate. But that is a very different question than who was the most athletically dominant.
  • Rice is definitely the GOAT when it comes to WR careers; zero argument there.
  • Calvin was incredible but never really moved the needle for that franchise, even with Stafford at the helm. I would say the same with Andre.
  • Fitz was an incredible HOF player who I always wanted in purple (hometown guy who was a ballboy for the Vikings when Moss played there) and absolutely is in the discussion, but he was more limited from an athletic standpoint.
But if you ask who kept defensive coordinators up at night? Who could scare you with average QBs and dominate with a competent QB? Who was a TD threat every single play? Who could go for 3 catches for 163 and 3 TDs in Dallas on Thanksgiving? That was Moss.

In a basketball analogy I'm calling Rice was to Tim Duncan as Moss is to Durant. One was dominant in a less flashy way and the other was an uber-talent who got in his own way more than anyone slowing him.
Click to expand...
On talent, Moss is the best along with Calvin. He was the scariest WR to game plan against.

But he wasn’t the best guy to have on your team. I know that because he was traded twice in his prime and quit in the middle of the season.

To me, it’s not even about who I’d rather have as a teammate. It’s about who I’d rather have if I’m building a team.

Why would I take a physically soft headache who quits, when I can still get a freakish, dominant receiver who works hard, is tough, and doesn’t quit in the middle of a bad year?

Calvin, Fitz and Andre got drafted to garbage franchises and they became franchise players. Randy Moss couldn’t handle that in Oakland because he lacked the mental greatness of the other guys.
 
DMoney said:
On talent, Moss is the best along with Calvin. He was the scariest WR to game plan against.

But he wasn’t the best guy to have on your team. I know that because he was traded twice in his prime and quit in the middle of the season.

To me, it’s not even about who I’d rather have as a teammate. It’s about who I’d rather have if I’m building a team.

Why would I take a physically soft headache who quits, when I can still get a freakish, dominant receiver who works hard, is tough, and doesn’t quit in the middle of a bad year?
Click to expand...

Because the physically soft headache who quits is the far superior football player.

When he was on a good football team with good leadership, which is what I'm going to have when I assemble my football team, he scored 47 touchdowns in 3 years. In his thirties.
 
dycane said:
Moss is the greatest WR we’ve ever seen. Rice and Swann are right behind him.
Click to expand...
SWANN? No. No way.
Dude doesn’t even belong in the hall of fame. He played in a run first era, but my God, his numbers scream #2 WR all day:

www.pro-football-reference.com

Lynn Swann Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Lynn Swann. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.
www.pro-football-reference.com www.pro-football-reference.com

His best season was 61 catches, 880 yards with 11 TDs. His BEST. His career 17 game average is 49 catches, 800 yards and 7 TDs. Not bad, but nowhere near the stratosphere of HOF. Lynn Swann is in the Hall of Fame because of his Super Bowl against the Cowboys. Period. While this catch is indeed iconic, one catch/game should not be what puts someone into the HOF.

1749137590148.png
 
Last edited:
OrangeBowlMagic said:
Because the physically soft headache who quits is the far superior football player.
Click to expand...
Far superior? Come on. We’re talking about all-time greats and freaks of nature who also ran 4.3 with more physical strength. This isn’t comparing Moss to Chris Chambers.

Again, this isn’t hypothetical. His OWN TEAMS didn’t value him like that. Why?

If you have the choice of any player in history, you don’t pick a quitter. Seems like common sense to me.
 
Advertisement
DMoney said:
Far superior? Come on. We are talking about all-time greats and freaks of nature who also ran 4.3 with more physical strength. This isn’t comparing Moss to Chris Chambers.

Again, this isn’t hypothetical. His OWN TEAMS didn’t value him like that. Why?
Click to expand...

OK, maybe far superior is a stretch. I just look at player's ceilings. When I want to build a superteam, I want the guys with the absolute highest ceiling. That's Randy Moss. Why didn't his own teams value him? I don't know, we weren't in the locker rooms. Maybe he hated losing. Maybe he was an *******. The only one I'm really concerned about is why did Minnesota get rid of him? I don't care about Oakland, they were a disaster. And at the end of his New England tenure he was 33. Why Minnesota let him go at 27 is definitely an interesting discussion.

But I don't think Larry was in the same conversation as Randy at their ceilings. And since this is a hypothetical discussion, I'll ignore the off the field stuff and just focus on putting the best possible 53 dudes on the same roster. Randy is on that team, for me.
 
DMoney said:
Randy Moss was the best vertical receiver ever and the best go-up-and-get-it receiver ever.

He was also a distraction everywhere he went, had zero physicality, gave you nothing over the middle and nothing after the catch unless he had a clear runway

Give me guys with 95% of his talent, more complete games, and zero BS. There’s a reason nobody was trading Calvin, Fitz and Andre.
Click to expand...
I mean one of the coaches who traded for him is the best off all time.

Those three WRs were almost too loyal to their respective franchises. Not saying that’s an issue, but if they didn’t want to leave why would the org trade them?

I’m super biased being a Vikings fan. I’ll also pound the table that Andre is the most underrated WR of his era. But I’m never taking him over Moss.

The clip of Belichick gushing about Reed made its way around here. Here’s Belichick talking about Moss.



The drama and all that stuff sucked, but the argument is his game wasn’t complete but still dominated. Holes or not, he just plainly wasn’t coverable. Couldn’t press him, if broke the press he’s gone. Couldn’t play off, he could outrun everyone. My favorite play is him burning DeAngelo Hall. A 4.3 40 guy.

Moss was just a different breed of player.
 
aelmiami said:
I mean one of the coaches who traded for him is the best off all time.

Those three WRs were almost too loyal to their respective franchises. Not saying that’s an issue, but if they didn’t want to leave why would the org trade them?

I’m super biased being a Vikings fan. I’ll also pound the table that Andre is the most underrated WR of his era. But I’m never taking him over Moss.

The clip of Belichick gushing about Reed made its way around here. Here’s Belichick talking about Moss.



The drama and all that stuff sucked, but the argument is his game wasn’t complete but still dominated. Holes or not, he just plainly wasn’t coverable. Couldn’t press him, if broke the press he’s gone. Couldn’t play off, he could outrun everyone. My favorite play is him burning DeAngelo Hall. A 4.3 40 guy.

Moss was just a different breed of player.
Click to expand...

Even in that clip, Belichick was joking about how Moss refused to go over the middle.

I’ll take a guy who may only be 95% as talented but can do everything and doesn’t need to be treated like a child.
 
OrangeBowlMagic said:
OK, maybe far superior is a stretch. I just look at player's ceilings. When I want to build a superteam, I want the guys with the absolute highest ceiling. That's Randy Moss. Why didn't his own teams value him? I don't know, we weren't in the locker rooms. Maybe he hated losing. Maybe he was an *******. The only one I'm really concerned about is why did Minnesota get rid of him? I don't care about Oakland, they were a disaster. And at the end of his New England tenure he was 33. Why Minnesota let him go at 27 is definitely an interesting discussion.

But I don't think Larry was in the same conversation as Randy at their ceilings. And since this is a hypothetical discussion, I'll ignore the off the field stuff and just focus on putting the best possible 53 dudes on the same roster. Randy is on that team, for me.
Click to expand...
As a lifelong Vikings fan, I blame Red McCombs. He wasn’t a good owner. I think McCombs being cheap, not getting a stadium paired with some of Moss’s antics made that trade happen.

Firing Green was the beginning of the end for Moss in MN imo. McCombs really screwed that whole situation up and I personally think it fueled some issues. Not absolving Moss of his problems off the field, but he has spoken candidly multiple times about what Green meant to him. And McCombs firing probably our best coach not named Bud Grant after his first losing season ruined the relationship between the FO & Moss.
 
Back
Top