WR recruiting profile

[Ethnicsands]

The Ibieta discussion sheds light on our overall WR approach. My $0.02:

In the NFL, WRs have to be physically terrific, because DBs are so talented, and defenses overall are sophisticated and coordinated well. Small differences matter a lot and too many unforced errors means you’re cut or sent to the practice squad. Likewise, DBs have to be great because see point 1.

In college, DBs aren’t as good, defenses aren’t as well practiced or coordinated, so the critical needs of a WR are different. It’s not as hard to get open, but unforced errors still cost downs and wins. And willingness to do the little things (like blocking downfield) rarely gets discussed but matters in big games.

We have over-focused WR recruiting on kids who have the physical ability to free up and separate, which is table stakes for the nfl. Somehow figuring they’d learn to catch and take contact. The reverse is what we should do in college - over-focus on kids who can catch and take hits (and do the little things). They’ll avoid the drops and make some plays. Some will end up becoming good at separation and end up surprising positively.

 

[UMFarArcher]

We've certainly had our share of disappointments.

 

[cocanes]

OP you make a good point. That’s My $0.02. Now we have $0.04

 

[DMoney]

Separation, quickness and route-running is the name of the game in the NFL. You need to be able to beat press and then uncover quickly at the top of the route.

A lot of our worst misses are guys that fit this exact profile, which is so common in South Florida. Punt returners in particular are very good at beating press (equivalent to making the first tackler miss on a return), separating with quickness and catching in crowded spaces.

I'd boil down our WR woes to two main issues:

(1) Turning down too many talented small guys in favor of size. Some of these names are true sleepers, others we flat-out passed on: TY Hilton, Antonio Brown, Marquise Brown, Elijah Moore, TuTu Atwell, John Brown and Isaiah McKenzie. Those are all easily attainable pros who could have helped us. Zay Flowers at Boston College is a recent example.

(2) Losing battles. Amari Cooper, Jerry Jeudy and Calvin Ridley fit this category. We won the battle for Ahmmon Richards and then he got hurt. That's four first rounders right there.

 

[Poptimus]

We’ve taken some smaller WRs recently with Harley and Pope, but we seem to have a certain size at WR we go after and, I agree, at the college level it’s unnecessary. If anything, if we are going to go after size it ought to be on the OL.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Separation, quickness and route-running is the name of the game in the NFL. You need to be able to beat press and then uncover quickly at the top of the route.

A lot of our worst misses are guys that fit this exact profile, which is so common in South Florida. Punt returners in particular are very good at beating press (equivalent to making the first tackler miss on a return), separating with quickness and catching in crowded spaces.

I'd boil down our WR woes to two main issues:

(1) Turning down too many talented small guys in favor of size. Some of these names are true sleepers, others we flat-out passed on: TY Hilton, Antonio Brown, Marquise Brown, Elijah Moore, TuTu Atwell, John Brown and Isaiah McKenzie. Those are all easily attainable pros who could have helped us. Zay Flowers at Boston College is a recent example.

(2) Losing battles. Amari Cooper, Jerry Jeudy and Calvin Ridley fit this category. We won the battle for Ahmmon Richards and then he got hurt. That's four first rounders right there.

Seems like we’re talking by each other. The question is why we keep missing on guys who are quick and can separate. The answer is because we’re insufficiently focused on skills the nfl takes for granted (because don’t apply if you‘re too weak in them), and we undervalue. Hands, toughness, use of body, blocking. If WRs don’t do these things, the nfl ain’t generally interested. So they’re differentiating re elite physical skills and it makes sense for them. The college need-state is different - we aren’t playing against NFL defenses. And we’re picking kids at an earlier stage of development, where not all of the kids we pick amongst are tough, catch with their hands well, etc. And our game is just different. We should not be trying to make recruiting decisions based on what the nfl needs. That’s a big mistake, imo.

We miss on too many kids with semi-elite or elite physical traits because we aren’t effectively screening them for ‘table stakes’ capabilities or potential. It’s not bad luck. We’ve been doing it wrong. We’re way past ‘coincidence’ as an explanation. We aren’t focusing nearly enough on hands, toughness, use of body etc. These should be the first cut. Instead, we have tried too hard to find kids who look good in 7-7 or camps, and spent too little time figuring out if their traits translate to our game.

I agree to a point on small being a miss, but the kids you listed are *tough* - if we’d focused on toughness more than measurables, we’d have signed some, which is part of my point.

The losing battles strikes me as a mistaken explanation. Yes, but unrelated. Winning a few battles for grandma kids might have masked our eval issues but it doesn’t change them. We need to change how we assess kids who are not grandma kids, no matter how many grandma kids we sign.

 

[Ethnicsands]

We’ve taken some smaller WRs recently with Harley and Pope, but we seem to have a certain size at WR we go after and, I agree, at the college level it’s unnecessary. If anything, if we are going to go after size it ought to be on the OL.

Cyrim Wimbs says ‘hi.’

Let’s rule out kids who aren’t tough enough and hard working enough at all positions, then prioritize amongst whoever is left. The size prototypes without toughness or dedication almost never pan out. Maybe never.

 

[Gooner#44]

Stack all the best and elite WR prospects you can get. Let them battle it out, the best ones stay and ball, the ones that get beat out transfer and and give you room for more studs to compete

Clemson/Bama/Ohio St and a few others do this and it is perfect. Sure every once in a while a Hunter Renfrew shows out, but that is an outlier even though everyone here loves to holler it every thread it means nada.

 

[grover]

Cyrim Wimbs says ‘hi.’

Let’s rule out kids who aren’t tough enough and hard working enough at all positions, then prioritize amongst whoever is left. The size prototypes without toughness or dedication almost never pan out. Maybe never.

100% agree. Though I've got one for you: Seantrel Henderson. He was such a freak he was able to overcome occasional bouts of laziness. Shields was another one that Shannon had to threaten before he tightened up.

 

[Ethnicsands]

100% agree. Though I've got one for you: Seantrel Henderson. He was such a freak he was able to overcome occasional bouts of laziness. Shields was another one that Shannon had to threaten before he tightened up.

Henderson was a grandma kid and a freak, but his lack of commitment hurt his value at UM. He was capable but not partocularly good. He should have been great. So even for him - one of the few highest rated HS OL ever - the rule pretty much stands. Maybe Allen Iverson is an example of a guy so talented his habits didn’t detract, except he at least competed amd cared when the clock was running. And he was tougher than nails.

 

[pacusmc]

The focus on size is the dumbest sht in recruiting wide receivers considering the production of the smaller guys in cfb and the pros. If I would’ve told you that Hollywood brown would be a first rounder when he was a senior in high school I would’ve been laughed out this board ( I didn’t think so either). Dudes like TO and others his size and speed don’t grow on trees and hoping some under rated 6’2 guy can become one of them when they’re not is just not effective recruiting. The biggest receiver haul has been lsu with Marshall and the other 2 elite big bodied receivers. But you better be n the playoffs constantly or stealing from charities to pay them.

 

[RightSaidFred]

The Ibieta discussion sheds light on our overall WR approach. My $0.02:

In the NFL, WRs have to be physically terrific, because DBs are so talented, and defenses overall are sophisticated and coordinated well. Small differences matter a lot and too many unforced errors means you’re cut or sent to the practice squad. Likewise, DBs have to be great because see point 1.

In college, DBs aren’t as good, defenses aren’t as well practiced or coordinated, so the critical needs of a WR are different. It’s not as hard to get open, but unforced errors still cost downs and wins. And willingness to do the little things (like blocking downfield) rarely gets discussed but matters in big games.

We have over-focused WR recruiting on kids who have the physical ability to free up and separate, which is table stakes for the nfl. Somehow figuring they’d learn to catch and take contact. The reverse is what we should do in college - over-focus on kids who can catch and take hits (and do the little things). They’ll avoid the drops and make some plays. Some will end up becoming good at separation and end up surprising positively.

I agree and I think it extends to more positions than just WR.

We should always recruit the “can’t miss” 5 star types, but we should fill out the class with kids who excel at the fundamentals of their position.

Recruit football players, not athletes.

 

[Dude]

We keep missing at multiple positions for the same reason imo, a lack of football culture that fosters a relentless pursuit of perfecting a players craft.

 

[da truth]

The Ibieta discussion sheds light on our overall WR approach. My $0.02:

In the NFL, WRs have to be physically terrific, because DBs are so talented, and defenses overall are sophisticated and coordinated well. Small differences matter a lot and too many unforced errors means you’re cut or sent to the practice squad. Likewise, DBs have to be great because see point 1.

In college, DBs aren’t as good, defenses aren’t as well practiced or coordinated, so the critical needs of a WR are different. It’s not as hard to get open, but unforced errors still cost downs and wins. And willingness to do the little things (like blocking downfield) rarely gets discussed but matters in big games.

We have over-focused WR recruiting on kids who have the physical ability to free up and separate, which is table stakes for the nfl. Somehow figuring they’d learn to catch and take contact. The reverse is what we should do in college - over-focus on kids who can catch and take hits (and do the little things). They’ll avoid the drops and make some plays. Some will end up becoming good at separation and end up surprising positively.

Ibieta is a huge win. Sleeper that’s going to be impactful

 

[DMoney]

Seems like we’re talking by each other. The question is why we keep missing on guys who are quick and can separate.

Our biggest issue is not signing enough guys who are quick and can separate. Pope is an anomaly. He was misevaluated by everyone. That general profile -- dynamic South Florida punt returner - is what we should be signing every year.

Now, I've been banging the same drum on intangibles. Look at the guys who have succeeded here lately. But work ethic needs to be paired with playmaking ability and athleticism. That's Moore, Atwell, TY Hilton and the Browns. Dynamic ability is even more important in college because it's easier to manufacture touches.

Here are our receivers since 2008. The guys that succeeded were generally electric, returner-types with character. The rest failed for a bunch of different reasons.

The hits:

Travis Benjamin- Punt returner with track speed. Approaching a decade in the NFL.
Phillip Dorsett- Punt returner with track speed. First round pick.
Allen Hurns- Tough QB/WR who excelled at camp. Intangibles guy. Seven-year pro.
Stacy Coley- Fragile but dynamic with PR skills. Top 5 in all-time receiving yards.
Braxton Berrios- NFL punt returner.
KJ Osborn- NFL punt returner.
Mike Harley- Quick and fast- 10.7 100M and 4.00 shuttle.

The misses:

Aldarius Johnson- Slow contested-catch guy.
Robert Lockhart- Slow contested-catch guy.
D'Mauri Jones- Slow contested-catch guy.
Jontavious Carter- Slow contested-catch guy.
Darrell Langham- Slow contested-catch guy.
Brian Hightower- Slow contested-catch guy.
Lawrence Cager- Slow contested-catch guy with solid quickness. Would be a hit if not for transfer.
Davon Johnson- Straight-line speed guy. KR instead of a PR.
Tommy Streeter- Straight-line speed guy. Arguably a hit but limited.
Dee Wiggins- Straight-line speed guy. Bad hands.
Thearon Collier- Off-field discipline.
Sam Bruce- Off-field discipline.
Dionte Mullins- Off-field discipline.
Jeff Thomas- Off-field discipline.
Laron Byrd- Big and tough. Not dynamic.
Kendall Thompkins- Small. Not dynamic.
Rashawn Scott- Big-bodied athlete, smooth but not explosive. Practice squad.
Malcolm Lewis- Injured and never fully recovered.
Ahmmon Richards- Injured, medical retirement.
Herb Waters- Great athlete who should have been playing CB.
Evidence Njoku- Injuries and discipline.
Mark Pope- Learning issues. Poor hands. Dynamic HS returner.
Marquez Ezzard- Athletic but not fast. Transfer.

My takeaways are that (1) we need to do a better job of signing the punt returners/playmakers that grow on trees down here; (2) we need to pair that ability with solid work ethic and character.

 

[nycane]

Our biggest issue is not signing enough guys who are quick and can separate. Pope is an anomaly. He was misevaluated by everyone. That general profile -- dynamic South Florida punt returner - is what we should be signing every year.

Now, I've been banging the same drum on intangibles. Look at the guys who have succeeded here lately. But work ethic needs to be paired with playmaking ability and athleticism. That's Moore, Atwell, TY Hilton and the Browns. Dynamic ability is even more important in college because it's easier to manufacture touches.

Here are our receivers since 2008. The guys that succeeded were generally electric, returner-types with character. The rest failed for a bunch of different reasons.

The hits:

Travis Benjamin- Punt returner with track speed. Approaching a decade in the NFL.
Phillip Dorsett- Punt returner with track speed. First round pick.
Allen Hurns- Tough QB/WR who excelled at camp. Intangibles guy. Seven-year pro.
Stacy Coley- Fragile but dynamic with PR skills. Top 5 in all-time receiving yards.
Braxton Berrios- NFL punt returner.
KJ Osborn- NFL punt returner.
Mike Harley- Quick and fast- 10.7 100M and 4.00 shuttle.

The misses:

Aldarius Johnson- Slow contested-catch guy.
Robert Lockhart- Slow contested-catch guy.
D'Mauri Jones- Slow contested-catch guy.
Jontavious Carter- Slow contested-catch guy.
Darrell Langham- Slow contested-catch guy.
Brian Hightower- Slow contested-catch guy.
Lawrence Cager- Slow contested-catch guy with solid quickness. Would be a hit if not for transfer.
Davon Johnson- Straight-line speed guy. KR instead of a PR.
Tommy Streeter- Straight-line speed guy. Arguably a hit but limited.
Dee Wiggins- Straight-line speed guy. Bad hands.
Thearon Collier- Off-field discipline.
Sam Bruce- Off-field discipline.
Dionte Mullins- Off-field discipline.
Jeff Thomas- Off-field discipline.
Laron Byrd- Big and tough. Not dynamic.
Kendall Thompkins- Small. Not dynamic.
Rashawn Scott- Big-bodied athlete, smooth but not explosive. Practice squad.
Malcolm Lewis- Injured and never fully recovered.
Ahmmon Richards- Injured, medical retirement.
Herb Waters- Great athlete who should have been playing CB.
Evidence Njoku- Injuries and discipline.
Mark Pope- Learning issues. Poor hands. Dynamic HS returner.
Marquez Ezzard- Athletic but not fast. Transfer.

My takeaways are that (1) we need to do a better job of signing the punt returners/playmakers that grow on trees down here; (2) we need to pair that ability with solid work ethic and character.

Cager was never a hit. Rashawn Scott wasn’t bad if he didn’t get hurt

 

[DTP]

Agreed on both fronts. With the basis of most college offenses revolving around getting guys in space, the shifty punt returner types are a no brainer. But toughness and the ability to beat man and press man coverage should be considered a premium skill. It’s far more important than 40 time. The issue with Pope and Wiggins isn’t just drops, it’s that if a DB gets their hands on them they’re worthless. Given a free release, both are fast enough to run by anyone but jam them and they get all discombobulated. Neither is physical or aggressive to make a play on the ball. It’s not a size thing either because Wiggins is a big college receiver. He’s just a one trick pony. Straight line speed and nothing else. Pope is a little shifter but is deathly afraid of contact and will go down or step out of bounds at the first sign of it. It’s also why he drops passes.

The NFL puts a premium on size because the DBs are much better than college. You’re constantly throwing to guys who aren’t open and relying on them to physically take the ball away from the DB. It’s why a guy like Pitts gets drafted in the top 5. He doesn’t need to be open, just put the ball near him. In college, it’s different. Guys are open. Most DBs can’t get physical at the line and then recover if you beat the jam. The RPO and screen game are much more emphasized because linemen are allowed further down field on passing plays. It’s nice to have a jump ball guy but it’s much easier to scheme guys open than it is in the NFL.

 

[losdogcane]

Where is Leanord Hankerson?

 

[DTP]

Also, how the **** had Mike Harley never been a full time punt/kick returner in four years? I feel like he’s perfect for the job.

 

[RVACane]

Our biggest issue is not signing enough guys who are quick and can separate. Pope is an anomaly. He was misevaluated by everyone. That general profile -- dynamic South Florida punt returner - is what we should be signing every year.

Now, I've been banging the same drum on intangibles. Look at the guys who have succeeded here lately. But work ethic needs to be paired with playmaking ability and athleticism. That's Moore, Atwell, TY Hilton and the Browns. Dynamic ability is even more important in college because it's easier to manufacture touches.

Here are our receivers since 2008. The guys that succeeded were generally electric, returner-types with character. The rest failed for a bunch of different reasons.

The hits:

Travis Benjamin- Punt returner with track speed. Approaching a decade in the NFL.
Phillip Dorsett- Punt returner with track speed. First round pick.
Allen Hurns- Tough QB/WR who excelled at camp. Intangibles guy. Seven-year pro.
Stacy Coley- Fragile but dynamic with PR skills. Top 5 in all-time receiving yards.
Braxton Berrios- NFL punt returner.
KJ Osborn- NFL punt returner.
Mike Harley- Quick and fast- 10.7 100M and 4.00 shuttle.

The misses:

Aldarius Johnson- Slow contested-catch guy.
Robert Lockhart- Slow contested-catch guy.
D'Mauri Jones- Slow contested-catch guy.
Jontavious Carter- Slow contested-catch guy.
Darrell Langham- Slow contested-catch guy.
Brian Hightower- Slow contested-catch guy.
Lawrence Cager- Slow contested-catch guy with solid quickness. Would be a hit if not for transfer.
Davon Johnson- Straight-line speed guy. KR instead of a PR.
Tommy Streeter- Straight-line speed guy. Arguably a hit but limited.
Dee Wiggins- Straight-line speed guy. Bad hands.
Thearon Collier- Off-field discipline.
Sam Bruce- Off-field discipline.
Dionte Mullins- Off-field discipline.
Jeff Thomas- Off-field discipline.
Laron Byrd- Big and tough. Not dynamic.
Kendall Thompkins- Small. Not dynamic.
Rashawn Scott- Big-bodied athlete, smooth but not explosive. Practice squad.
Malcolm Lewis- Injured and never fully recovered.
Ahmmon Richards- Injured, medical retirement.
Herb Waters- Great athlete who should have been playing CB.
Evidence Njoku- Injuries and discipline.
Mark Pope- Learning issues. Poor hands. Dynamic HS returner.
Marquez Ezzard- Athletic but not fast. Transfer.

My takeaways are that (1) we need to do a better job of signing the punt returners/playmakers that grow on trees down here; (2) we need to pair that ability with solid work ethic and character.

I started reading this post at a spot where I couldn’t see who the poster was and I said “**** you’re a really good poster” and then scrolled up to see it’s