What are the visible differences between Shannon and Golden?

[LuCane]

I find this cringe-worthy to say, but as it relates to ON THE FIELD, I think Randy Shannon showed more flexibility and willingness to adjust than we have seen so far from the current staff.

- Shannon went from predominant Man under to transitioning to some underneath zones. The notable Sharpton pick-6 toward the back end of Shannon's tenure as a Head Coach is one example.

- Shannon went so far as to hire Whipple and Bill Young. Both are guys who strayed pretty far from what Shannon had showed were his core, on the field, philosophies. Young was a zone blitz guy. Whipple was a chuck it guy.

- Shannon also made swift decisions when something didn't work. The notable example is Tim Walton. He was immediately fired. Say whatever you will (and most of it is likely very accurate), but Tim Walton actually grew to become an NFL defensive Coordinator under a pretty legitimate Head Coach.


We're talking about on the field, here. I can't believe what I just wrote.

I agree with this. BUT, wasn't this one of the things Golden actually singled out as something he thought was a problem? The constant changing and turnover on the staff? Golden stated that he felt the musical chairs on the last staff hurt more than it helped, and that he wanted some continuity and stability on the staff. Now, that continuity of staff may suck, but I think it was more by design.

I do agree Shannon desperately tried to bring in help to get things right, but Im not sure it was the best situation for the program either. Some of these guys obviously did not have great chemistry with Shannon and weren't a great fit.

I think there is SOME validity to Golden's philosophy on "continuity" and consistency of the staff, but it has to be QUALITY on the staff to begin with. I think that's where our real problem lies. We don't have very good assistants either, so continuity of what we have has done nothing for this team.

Continuity for the sake of continuity does not produce results. I have always said Golden has a plan and Shannon never seemed to have anything in place. He was reacting. In the same breath, so to speak, I've also always said that Golden's plan can fail or succeed, obviously. A plan doesn't mean you automatically succeed. It's just less sloppy.

He's pretty obviously not an analytics guy. When you start seeing evidence of failure... hate to use this word here, but you have to pivot. It doesn't mean change his entire philosophy (vision). It would have just meant changing the course to get there. To me, it seems like we're not seeing any changes on the field. Now that we do have more talent, I was prepared to see the adjustments. We haven't yet.

I completely agree on the first part. Continuity doesn't matter if what you are continuing is mediocrity and bad coaching. Im just saying, Shannon was always in reactive mode, whereas what people see as Golden being "stubborn" or "refusing to adjust" I think is more by design where he thinks if he just gives it enough time, it will all come together and finally execute.

Im not saying he's right. Im just saying that I think Golden INTENDED to do what he's doing.

I agree with that. I always have. Even his defensive concepts. They're conscious decisions. Just his style of play (read: philosophy).

 

[ghost2]

Thank you for the direction this thread has taken.

 

[The Franchise]

I find this cringe-worthy to say, but as it relates to ON THE FIELD, I think Randy Shannon showed more flexibility and willingness to adjust than we have seen so far from the current staff.

- Shannon went from predominant Man under to transitioning to some underneath zones. The notable Sharpton pick-6 toward the back end of Shannon's tenure as a Head Coach is one example.

- Shannon went so far as to hire Whipple and Bill Young. Both are guys who strayed pretty far from what Shannon had showed were his core, on the field, philosophies. Young was a zone blitz guy. Whipple was a chuck it guy.

- Shannon also made swift decisions when something didn't work. The notable example is Tim Walton. He was immediately fired. Say whatever you will (and most of it is likely very accurate), but Tim Walton actually grew to become an NFL defensive Coordinator under a pretty legitimate Head Coach.


We're talking about on the field, here. I can't believe what I just wrote.

I agree with this. BUT, wasn't this one of the things Golden actually singled out as something he thought was a problem? The constant changing and turnover on the staff? Golden stated that he felt the musical chairs on the last staff hurt more than it helped, and that he wanted some continuity and stability on the staff. Now, that continuity of staff may suck, but I think it was more by design.

I do agree Shannon desperately tried to bring in help to get things right, but Im not sure it was the best situation for the program either. Some of these guys obviously did not have great chemistry with Shannon and weren't a great fit.

I think there is SOME validity to Golden's philosophy on "continuity" and consistency of the staff, but it has to be QUALITY on the staff to begin with. I think that's where our real problem lies. We don't have very good assistants either, so continuity of what we have has done nothing for this team.

Continuity for the sake of continuity does not produce results. I have always said Golden has a plan and Shannon never seemed to have anything in place. He was reacting. In the same breath, so to speak, I've also always said that Golden's plan can fail or succeed, obviously. A plan doesn't mean you automatically succeed. It's just less sloppy.

He's pretty obviously not an analytics guy. When you start seeing evidence of failure... hate to use this word here, but you have to pivot. It doesn't mean change his entire philosophy (vision). It would have just meant changing the course to get there. To me, it seems like we're not seeing any changes on the field. Now that we do have more talent, I was prepared to see the adjustments. We haven't yet.

I completely agree on the first part. Continuity doesn't matter if what you are continuing is mediocrity and bad coaching. Im just saying, Shannon was always in reactive mode, whereas what people see as Golden being "stubborn" or "refusing to adjust" I think is more by design where he thinks if he just gives it enough time, it will all come together and finally execute.

Im not saying he's right. Im just saying that I think Golden INTENDED to do what he's doing.

He intended to do was he's been doing? You mean he didn't accidentally not fire any assistants our change anything that hasn't worked? Thanks for the deep thoughts.

 

[JimmyJohnsonsHair]

On the field we're no better. This looks like the same ****** team we saw under Shannon. The OL still stinks. Plays seem to be called like they are pulled out of a hat ala Patrick Nix. The defense has actually gotten worse (the first two games of this year not withstanding, but FAMU, lol). Both lines still get pushed around against better teams. Special Teams are anything but special ("Fire Pannunzio!").

Off the field Golden is a better marketer/spokesperson and was better suited to be the face of the program throughout the investigation. Now that the investigation is over, the focus needs to get back to on the field results. As such, he needs to be shown the door barring a truly miraculous turnaround.

 

[gfer1988]

i would say golden's players seem to run his scheme right. However, players under both coaches are lacking in fundamentals and technique.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

I find this cringe-worthy to say, but as it relates to ON THE FIELD, I think Randy Shannon showed more flexibility and willingness to adjust than we have seen so far from the current staff.

- Shannon went from predominant Man under to transitioning to some underneath zones. The notable Sharpton pick-6 toward the back end of Shannon's tenure as a Head Coach is one example.

- Shannon went so far as to hire Whipple and Bill Young. Both are guys who strayed pretty far from what Shannon had showed were his core, on the field, philosophies. Young was a zone blitz guy. Whipple was a chuck it guy.

- Shannon also made swift decisions when something didn't work. The notable example is Tim Walton. He was immediately fired. Say whatever you will (and most of it is likely very accurate), but Tim Walton actually grew to become an NFL defensive Coordinator under a pretty legitimate Head Coach.


We're talking about on the field, here. I can't believe what I just wrote.

I agree with this. BUT, wasn't this one of the things Golden actually singled out as something he thought was a problem? The constant changing and turnover on the staff? Golden stated that he felt the musical chairs on the last staff hurt more than it helped, and that he wanted some continuity and stability on the staff. Now, that continuity of staff may suck, but I think it was more by design.

I do agree Shannon desperately tried to bring in help to get things right, but Im not sure it was the best situation for the program either. Some of these guys obviously did not have great chemistry with Shannon and weren't a great fit.

I think there is SOME validity to Golden's philosophy on "continuity" and consistency of the staff, but it has to be QUALITY on the staff to begin with. I think that's where our real problem lies. We don't have very good assistants either, so continuity of what we have has done nothing for this team.

Continuity for the sake of continuity does not produce results. I have always said Golden has a plan and Shannon never seemed to have anything in place. He was reacting. In the same breath, so to speak, I've also always said that Golden's plan can fail or succeed, obviously. A plan doesn't mean you automatically succeed. It's just less sloppy.

He's pretty obviously not an analytics guy. When you start seeing evidence of failure... hate to use this word here, but you have to pivot. It doesn't mean change his entire philosophy (vision). It would have just meant changing the course to get there. To me, it seems like we're not seeing any changes on the field. Now that we do have more talent, I was prepared to see the adjustments. We haven't yet.

I completely agree on the first part. Continuity doesn't matter if what you are continuing is mediocrity and bad coaching. Im just saying, Shannon was always in reactive mode, whereas what people see as Golden being "stubborn" or "refusing to adjust" I think is more by design where he thinks if he just gives it enough time, it will all come together and finally execute.

Im not saying he's right. Im just saying that I think Golden INTENDED to do what he's doing.

He intended to do was he's been doing? You mean he didn't accidentally not fire any assistants our change anything that hasn't worked? Thanks for the deep thoughts.

No genius, let me explain this to you slowly in the chance that MAYBE you can grasp part of it. Golden's lack of flexibility, changing of schemes, or coordinators, is by DESIGN. By ORIGINAL DESIGN. This was his plan from the beginning. To pick a direction built around his philosophy, and STICK with it, as long as he could. This has nothing to with intending to fire someone or accidentally doing it.

I realize this may be beyond your limited intellect. Golden, FROM THE BEGINNING, mentioned staff turnover as something that was a PROBLEM at Miami for years. Hence he has stuck to his guns, regardless of how badly we have played, in order to instill a system at UM. Whether or not its been successful, a failure, or whether its still a work in progress is NOT the question. Its that Shannon was reactive, and constantly did things to fix problems, whereas Golden has steadfastly kept to his "plan" which was to keep stability and continuity on the staff and hope that this "system" whatever it is, would eventually succeed once it was fully learned and ingrained in the program.

As Lu pointed out, if what you are putting in is dog sh*t to begin with, then obviously that "system" is not going to fix anything. But Golden refusing to make changes, or adapt, isn't necessarily indicative of some major character flaw, or stubbornness, but rather someone that firmly believes that if given time, his system WILL work.

 

[rsa coral gables]

- Shannon went so far as to hire Whipple and Bill Young. Both are guys who strayed pretty far from what Shannon had showed were his core, on the field, philosophies. Young was a zone blitz guy. Whipple was a chuck it guy.

this is probably the product of having few to no other choices. i think these coaches were the best that shannon was able to recruit. more of an indication of being desperate than evidence of flexibility, in my opinion.

 

[FullyERicht]

They both had great APRs.......and thats all that matters to the clown admin.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

Here is my BIGGEST fear. That all this pain and effort, will have FINALLY paid off, if the defense finally clicks this year, and we can turn it around on D. Only to all be undone but a disasterous offense, and an OC that is in totally over his head. In the end, Golden is responsible and will pay the price regardless of which unit sinks the team, but it would really suck if the defense FINALLY clicks, and "gets it" only to have the offense implode, or worse than it already is. The end result will be the same, which will be Golden fired after this season, or next, and us having to start all over.

Honestly, if Golden is going to fail, I want him to COMPLETELY FAIL, so we can start over. I don't want to finally see the defense emerge and start playing great, only to have the offense explode and then always wonder what we could have been if we had a better OC, and a serviceable QB.

This isn't about supporting Golden, its about wanting to win SOONER rather than later. If we **** can Golden after this year or next, it will have meant at least 1-2 years of horrible UM football, followed by ANOTHER period of turmoil, transition, recruits lost, and then ANOTHER period of "rebuilding" under a new coach with a new system. We are looking at 4-5 years MINIMUM before we can reasonably have serious hope of a major run.

I don't hate Golden. I would rather see him succeed here because I want to see the team succeed, and SOONER rather than later. But if he fails, then he has to go. I just don't see that as anything to celebrate. That will mean we will have been all but irrelevant for the better part of a decade and a half. Just sad.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I agree with many of the themes in this thread. When an embattled head coach changes assistants and coordinators it's generally a desperate move that is destined to fail. It's the football equivalent of patching the stadium. Once Coker made those moves I knew he would be gone the following year. You hardly get the pick of the litter. Only occasionally does it pay off. The Dolphins may have stumbled upon something in Bill Lazor this year, even though he was hardly their first choice. Clancy Pendergast did a very good job at USC last season after being summoned by Lane Kiffin to salvage the disastrous defense left by Monte Kiffin.

Golden was hardly an embattled coach when he hired James Coley. What were the priorities in hiring for that position? That's what I would like to know. Golden had to realize that Fisch had already coached in the NFL at a relatively high level and might be itching to return. We should have had a type of offense in mind and a list of names who could supply it. I'm not convinced that we didn't simply wing it with whatever and whoever was available in a short window. A position like that shouldn't be slapped together as a recruiting tool. It may not have been that way but the appearance was difficult to shake.

Golden believes in D'Onofrio so I've seldom entered those threads. I'd prefer an attacking 4-3 but I'm convinced our ineptitude at defensive tackle/nose has been far greater that accepted even here, and once we return to minimal competence in that area -- hopefully now -- the remainder of the defense is cleansed. As I posted after the Louisville game, it's hard to be too down on the program because it's obvious we have far fewer slugs out there, no longer 1/3 the starters. I think Golden has a better eye for talent than Shannon and that will slowly show up, if we can somehow avoid the handful of morons who waste several apparently solidified spots each year.

Clock management and strategic choices are markedly improved, as others have mentioned. We seldom botch a meaningful decision. My only quarrel is that heavy favorites should be more aggressive on 4th down. That's a fault of coaching conventional wisdom in general, not merely with Golden. You aren't risking much on 4th and 5 since that opponent doesn't figure to go anywhere anyway, and the odds of converting the 5 yards are higher than in a typical game. Now, against Arkansas State at -16.5 the standard is different than at -45. I'm not sure Golden grasps that type of thing.

Our running game is overly simplistic. That's what annoys me more than anything right now. There's nothing to prevent a standard set offense from mixing in some zone read looks, or counter plays like Whipple used. We rip Georgia Tech for sticking with one approach but at least they have an identity, and one that would shred Florida A&M for far beyond what we managed. As a USC alum I've been impressed that Sarkisian has been sensibly varied. There's still tons of classic USC power sets mixed with designs that keep the defense off balance. When he's facing attacking Stanford on the road Sarkisian realized that too much finesse would put his very young offensive line at mercy so he defaulted to a basic approach that racked up rushing attempts and kept his team in the game. It's hilarious that so many Trojan fans wanted to look like Oregon last week, after what they saw hosting Fresno State.

James Coley should realize that the zone read looks, even if phony as ****, can flatfoot a defense while opening up centerfield and elsewhere. That's what many NFL teams have figured out. Chart the games and see how often the quarterback keeps that ball. Next to nothing. Yet the edge rushers often freeze as if it's Colin Klein running the stretch option.

 

[cummon sense]

if Golden talked like Randy Shannon did, he would have been gone in year 2.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

On the field we're no better. This looks like the same ****ty team we saw under Shannon. The OL still stinks. Plays seem to be called like they are pulled out of a hat ala Patrick Nix. The defense has actually gotten worse (the first two games of this year not withstanding, but FAMU, lol). Both lines still get pushed around against better teams. Special Teams are anything but special ("Fire Pannunzio!").

Off the field Golden is a better marketer/spokesperson and was better suited to be the face of the program throughout the investigation. Now that the investigation is over, the focus needs to get back to on the field results. As such, he needs to be shown the door barring a truly miraculous turnaround.

I don't think the OL under Shannon was this bad. I think Kehoe is terrible. Stoutland's lines were much better than this. They still underperformed but the OL lately has been a flat out embarrassment. I do agree that Offensively Coley is Pat Nix part 2.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

I agree with many of the themes in this thread. When an embattled head coach changes assistants and coordinators it's generally a desperate move that is destined to fail. It's the football equivalent of patching the stadium. Once Coker made those moves I knew he would be gone the following year. You hardly get the pick of the litter. Only occasionally does it pay off. The Dolphins may have stumbled upon something in Bill Lazor this year, even though he was hardly their first choice. Clancy Pendergast did a very good job at USC last season after being summoned by Lane Kiffin to salvage the disastrous defense left by Monte Kiffin.

Golden was hardly an embattled coach when he hired James Coley. What were the priorities in hiring for that position? That's what I would like to know. Golden had to realize that Fisch had already coached in the NFL at a relatively high level and might be itching to return. We should have had a type of offense in mind and a list of names who could supply it. I'm not convinced that we didn't simply wing it with whatever and whoever was available in a short window. A position like that shouldn't be slapped together as a recruiting tool. It may not have been that way but the appearance was difficult to shake.

Golden believes in D'Onofrio so I've seldom entered those threads. I'd prefer an attacking 4-3 but I'm convinced our ineptitude at defensive tackle/nose has been far greater that accepted even here, and once we return to minimal competence in that area -- hopefully now -- the remainder of the defense is cleansed. As I posted after the Louisville game, it's hard to be too down on the program because it's obvious we have far fewer slugs out there, no longer 1/3 the starters. I think Golden has a better eye for talent than Shannon and that will slowly show up, if we can somehow avoid the handful of morons who waste several apparently solidified spots each year.

Clock management and strategic choices are markedly improved, as others have mentioned. We seldom botch a meaningful decision. My only quarrel is that heavy favorites should be more aggressive on 4th down. That's a fault of coaching conventional wisdom in general, not merely with Golden. You aren't risking much on 4th and 5 since that opponent doesn't figure to go anywhere anyway, and the odds of converting the 5 yards are higher than in a typical game. Now, against Arkansas State at -16.5 the standard is different than at -45. I'm not sure Golden grasps that type of thing.

Our running game is overly simplistic. That's what annoys me more than anything right now. There's nothing to prevent a standard set offense from mixing in some zone read looks, or counter plays like Whipple used. We rip Georgia Tech for sticking with one approach but at least they have an identity, and one that would shred Florida A&M for far beyond what we managed. As a USC alum I've been impressed that Sarkisian has been sensibly varied. There's still tons of classic USC power sets mixed with designs that keep the defense off balance. When he's facing attacking Stanford on the road Sarkisian realized that too much finesse would put his very young offensive line at mercy so he defaulted to a basic approach that racked up rushing attempts and kept his team in the game. It's hilarious that so many Trojan fans wanted to look like Oregon last week, after what they saw hosting Fresno State.

James Coley should realize that the zone read looks, even if phony as ****, can flatfoot a defense while opening up centerfield and elsewhere. That's what many NFL teams have figured out. Chart the games and see how often the quarterback keeps that ball. Next to nothing. Yet the edge rushers often freeze as if it's Colin Klein running the stretch option.

I think Coley was brought in for his recruiting ability. Its clear recruiting had suffered here, and for whatever reason, Cloud or not, we were suffering in bringing in So Fla guys we wanted. Coley was hired for that reason, but it was a HUGE trade off going from a very qualified X and Os NFL guy, to a recruiter who makes Pat Nix look imaginative.

 

[Insanecane]

Shannon's defenses were better overall. They still stunk occasionally but not at the level of Onofrios. OTOH, offensively Shannon's teams were worse. much worse. Until this year of course. It seemed that Shannon just couldn't put together a cohesive offense and defense at the same time. Unfortunately Golden is suffering from the same issue.

 

[dadecounty25]

F**k camaraderie, you gain respect of your teammates on the field when you make a play and you have their back. Not none of this "Good job guys, you've been doing good in practice. Let's play some dodgeball."

 

[caneofny]

My liver says **** them both...

 

[theibisrules]

Some of our best moments in UM history have come while Randy Shannon was here, either as a player, DC, or even a head coach. Al Folden, not so much.

 

[JimmyJohnsonsHair]

On the field we're no better. This looks like the same ****ty team we saw under Shannon. The OL still stinks. Plays seem to be called like they are pulled out of a hat ala Patrick Nix. The defense has actually gotten worse (the first two games of this year not withstanding, but FAMU, lol). Both lines still get pushed around against better teams. Special Teams are anything but special ("Fire Pannunzio!").

Off the field Golden is a better marketer/spokesperson and was better suited to be the face of the program throughout the investigation. Now that the investigation is over, the focus needs to get back to on the field results. As such, he needs to be shown the door barring a truly miraculous turnaround.

I don't think the OL under Shannon was this bad. I think Kehoe is terrible. Stoutland's lines were much better than this. They still underperformed but the OL lately has been a flat out embarrassment. I do agree that Offensively Coley is Pat Nix part 2.

It was pretty bad (although I agree that this year might be the WOAT). Our RBs never had running lanes and QBs were always under pressure. Last year was the first time in a looooong time that the OL was even passable, and that was with NFL talent and a ton of experience.

 

[DaU83]

Golden can recruit, put on a good press conference. We need to see if he can put it all together.

 

[FRCane]

Golden's roster management is much better than Randy's. I think we had one returning CB in McGee when Golden took over.