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Urban Meyer on Miami Job

PanamaCityCanes said:
Can't have it both ways. People keep claiming that we have had many players drafted while we've had bad coaches. So either the draft is a result of development or it's a result of talent, but not one or the other depending on the current narrative.
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It's a result of BOTH!
 
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The Svengali said:
Hollywood Robinson is one guy from OUs roster last year and the year before. Where are the other FL guys?

Patrick Peterson played at LSU **** near 10 years ago. Spiller played at Clemson over 10 years ago.

The Ohio state team was **** near 20 years ago, mang!
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Carlos Hyde, the Bosas, Shazier, Shaun Wade, B.Victor, the WR from PBC last season were all at OSU recently. The point was they have been doing this for a while.

LSU doesn’t recruit Florida as much but the point was he’s their best DB and helped build what they call DBU.

Sooners are not going to get many top FL kids but I was saying just last season their best WR was from FL.
 
PanamaCityCanes said:
More relevant is that the best teams in the country have very few impact players. Who cares if a guy from Jacksonville goes off to play for Bowling Green and ends up getting drafted?
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How the **** is the NFL draft not THE most relevant point in this discussion? It literally is the best measure for talent. And the draft (and current roster make-up of the NFL) say that Florida has the most talent.
 
Coach Macho said:
Lesser teams my ***. When Florida teams travel they generally play power houses.

Who do you think covers the travel expenses? These big-time out of state programs. They pay us to travel up there and play them.

I've played out of state 3 times in the two seasons that I've been at Deerfield.

*Beat 11-time Georgia state champion Buford High, who had a RB going to Texas, 3 OL going to SEC schools, one of the top QB's in the country and a $200,000 coaching staff.

*Lost to St. John's Prep, a powerhouse program from Maryland with D1 kids all over their roster.

*Beat back-to-back Louisiana state champion Zachary High 53-0.

What exactly are you talking about?
Florida teams don't travel to play mediocre out-of-state programs. Mediocre programs can't afford to cover our travel expenses.
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And they usually win. I hate when people take a game or two where FL lost and act like the state hasn’t won way more than they loss.

Florida has dominated overall. I remember seeing Miami BTW come to Atlanta and destroy #1 norcross (like 55-0) when they had Lo Carter

A HS from Tally beat a highly rated Gwinnett school earlier that day.

Then BTW went to Las Vegas and destroyed that top school out there who had Snoop’s son. No one was making these silly claims then or even afterwards until now.

The only school I see that looks sloppy AF in these out of state matchups is Miami Central. They haven’t lost every matchup, they have won some but they normally don’t impress me.

Florida doesn’t win every matchup but they sure win more than it loses in these matchups despite not having the best coaching
 
Coach Macho said:
How the **** is the NFL draft not THE most relevant point in this discussion? It literally is the best measure for talent. And the draft (and current roster make-up of the NFL) say that Florida has the most talent.
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You can get angry if you want, but all anyone here wants to do is win football games and compete for titles. And the best teams in the country barely have an interest in the players in our primary recruiting area. That is more relevant than anything.
 
PanamaCityCanes said:
You can get angry if you want, but all anyone here wants to do is win football games and compete for titles. And the best teams in the country barely have an interest in the players in our primary recruiting area. That is more relevant than anything.
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I've been coaching down here for 12 years and I can tell you that the statement you just made couldn't be further from the truth.
 
PanamaCityCanes said:
So if a guy from Tampa gets drafted out of Toledo, it's because of the great development. If a guy gets drafted out of the University of Miami, it is sheer talent. Got it.
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Never said that.

However...
It's always talent when a kid gets drafted.

Development dictates WHERE he gets drafted. But TALENT is what the NFL drafts.
And they say Florida has the most talent.

Can you argue that or not?
 
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Coach Macho said:
I've been coaching down here for 12 years and I can tell you that the statement you just made couldn't be further from the truth.
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Cool, all that really matters is who is on their rosters right now and who is in their 2020 recruiting classes right now. The 2008 draft isn't relevant to what we're talking about.
 
Coach Macho said:
Never said that.

However...
It's always talent when a kid gets drafted.

Development dictates WHERE he gets drafted. But TALENT is what the NFL drafts.
And they say Florida has the most talent.

Can you argue that or not?
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No, but it's not my argument. I couldn't care less who gets drafted or where they get drafted. I am interested in winning football games. Those guys getting drafted aren't necessarily winning football games. They just have measurable talent. Kind of like when our guys sleepwalk through games but turn it on for the combine.
 
Also, the draft doesn't disprove Meyer's point that kids in Florida, especially south Florida, are extremely raw when they enter college. Yes, that requires development, but when Swinney and Saban and Day are starting with 80 kids who are ready for college football and don't need a playbook explained to them, we would need Bear Bryant + Pop Warner just to keep up.
 
It's funny how little substance these guys can bring to the discussion. The current rosters and recruiting classes are an indictment against south Florida, but all they have is "Yeah okay" with some insults sprinkled in. It's like they can't let go of something that used to be great.
 
DMoney said:
When you can’t respond with substance, you cut and paste this exact rant. The only thing you change is the opening insult, which signals that we are about to get a bunch of nothing.

This is a topic about Florida players and their ability to sustain a premier program. Read the OP. Nobody is talking about our administration except you.

Do you agree with Urban that it is harder to win at FSU and Miami because their local talent pool (Florida players) isn’t as prepared out of high school? If so, why have schools like Texas and Georgia not been as successful as FSU and Miami over the past 50 years?

Six different coaches have won 8 championships at FSU and Miami. If you add Florida, it’s 8 coaches winning 11 championships. There is overwhelming proof of concept. Good coaching plus Florida players equals championships.

We’ve either had good coaches or unemployable coaches, with nothing in between. The good coaches won big. The bad coaches were banished from head coaching.

Why have we made the wrong hires over two presidents and four ADs? I’ve gone over this in detail in threads that actually pertain to that topic. But the summary is that we’ve been too reactionary. We hire the opposite of the coach we just fired instead of looking forward. More specifically, we have not hired offensive coaches with a proprietary system in an era where offense is taking over the game.

There is no “narrative.” That’s just a buzzword you use to discredit stats you can’t counter. But if I have a fundamental belief, it’s that our condition is not permanent. Coaches change. ADs change, and even bad ADs can make good hires. But the talent pool hasn’t gone anywhere.

That’s why the NFL Draft numbers matter. In an era where football participation is declining, Florida talent keeps separating from the pack. And as long as Miami is still attached to the state, a good coach will have the ability to win big here.
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D, I am not insulting you. Just disagreeing. I respect you. Observing the manner in which you debate is part of trying to point out deficiencies in your response or perspective. Given the repetitiveness of this dialogue, one or both of us is not getting through to the other.

You use this ‘facts, substance’ schtick like it means something, but it’s nonsense. What happens, over and over, is that you hear someone said something allegedly disparaging of FL HS talent, and you (mis)react emotionally, like a mother who heard her son wasn’t smart and good looking.

This is a great example. You say I am off topic, because “This is a topic about Florida players and their ability to sustain a premier program. Read the OP.” Except your premise is wrong. This is a thread about what Urban Meyer said. I encourage you to read the OP.

In any case, Meyer didn’t say what you claim the thread is about. He made a couple passing comments in a conversation on a range of jobs and topics. One comment was that the FL coaching jobs are high profile (glamous) but not great, where great was meant as the few very best jobs in cfb (ohio state, lsu, alabama, uga, and per meyer, usc). The discussion topic was about whether USC is a great job, so his comments on FL were in passing. There are plenty of potential reasons why they may be next tier jobs. (Does anyone in the world think UM is a top tier job?) One comment he made was that FL players tend to be less well coached / developed coming out of HS. That doesn’t mean he said you can’t sustain a top program in FL. He did not say that. But you run with the perceived insult and immediately talk about NFL players and Titles, like those ‘facts’ are in any way responsive here. Hint: they’re not. To the contrary, he mentioned Miami with JJ in the old days. He knows the talent is there but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t come with challenges.

All you have to do to see the disconnect is realize Urban can well be right, and it doesn’t mean you can’t sustain a premier program in FL. Because (a) the pool of athletically high ceiling players is huge; (b) some kids will be well developed; and (c) evaluations matter. (As I have been saying since Coker was here, the Miami job needs a great evaluator, because that is the path to maximizing the single competitive advantage the program has.)

The problem in these discussions is highlighted by your ending. You say ‘.... a good coach can win here.’ Okay. But why, considering he did not say the opposite? I’ll tell you why. Because you keep interpreting every mention of an issue with our program as an argument that it’s impossible to win here. Despite no one saying that. You aren’t responding to posts or posters, you’re expressing your doubts, imo. If you were confident in what you write, you’d worry less that others might not agree.

For the record, I think a great coach can win at UM. I think there is no evidence an ordinary good coach can. Maybe it’s possible, but we have no reason to think we know it is.
 
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PanamaCityCanes said:
It's funny how little substance these guys can bring to the discussion. The current rosters and recruiting classes are an indictment against south Florida, but all they have is "Yeah okay" with some insults sprinkled in. It's like they can't let go of something that used to be great.
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I’m actually more fascinated with your disdain for my City.

Do you think that the City of Miami used to be great and just developed into a cesspool or do you that it’s always been a cesspool.

Did you grow up in Broward?
 
PanamaCityCanes said:
Also, the draft doesn't disprove Meyer's point that kids in Florida, especially south Florida, are extremely raw when they enter college. Yes, that requires development, but when Swinney and Saban and Day are starting with 80 kids who are ready for college football and don't need a playbook explained to them, we would need Bear Bryant + Pop Warner just to keep up.
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This is half right. The draft doesn’t disprove Meyer’s point. But you ignore evals, also. Good evals mean we aren’t taking a random cross section of kids. Good evals combined with FL talent means we can win.
 
Ethnicsands said:
This is half right. The draft doesn’t disprove Meyer’s point. But you ignore evals, also. Good evals mean we aren’t taking a random cross section of kids. Good evals combined with FL talent means we can win.
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Yeah, that's where any coach needs to get in there and really get to know a kid and not do the Coker method of allowing recruiting services to rate guys for you.
 
Ethnicsands said:
D, I am not insulting you. Just disagreeing. I respect you. Observing the manner in which you debate is part of trying to point out deficiencies in your response or perspective. Given the repetitiveness of this dialogue, one or both of us is not getting through to the other.

You use this ‘facts, substance’ schtick like it means something, but it’s nonsense. What happens, over and over, is that you hear someone said something allegedly disparaging of FL HS talent, and you (mis)react emotionally, like a mother who heard her son wasn’t smart and good looking.

This is a great example. You say I am off topic, because “This is a topic about Florida players and their ability to sustain a premier program. Read the OP.” Except your premise is wrong. This is a thread about what Urban Meyer said. I encourage you to read the OP.

In any case, Meyer didn’t say what you claim the thread is about. He made a couple passing comments in a conversation on a range of jobs and topics. One comment was that the FL coaching jobs are high profile (glamous) but not great, where great was meant as the few very best jobs in cfb (ohio state, lsu, alabama, uga, and per meyer, usc). The discussion topic was about whether USC is a great job, so his comments on FL were in passing. There are plenty of potential reasons why they may be next tier jobs. (Does anyone in the world think UM is a top tier job?) One comment he made was that FL players tend to be less well coached / developed coming out of HS. That doesn’t mean he said you can’t sustain a top program in FL. He did not say that. But you run with the perceived insult and immediately talk about NFL players and Titles, like those ‘facts’ are in any way responsive here. Hint: they’re not. To the contrary, he mentioned Miami with JJ in the old days. He knows the talent is there but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t come with challenges.

All you have to do to see the disconnect is realize Urban can well be right, and it doesn’t mean you can’t sustain a premier program in FL. Because (a) the pool of athletically high ceiling players is huge; (b) some kids will be well developed; and (c) evaluations matter. (As I have been saying since Coker was here, the Miami job needs a great evaluator, because that is the path to maximizing the single competitive advantage the program has.)

The problem in these discussions is highlighted by your ending. You say ‘.... a good coach can win here.’ Okay. But why, considering he did not say the opposite? I’ll tell you why. Because you keep interpreting every mention of an issue with our program as an argument that it’s impossible to win here. Despite no one saying that. You aren’t responding to posts or posters, you’re expressing your doubts, imo. If you were confident in what you write, you’d worry less that others might not agree.

For the record, I think a great coach can win at UM. I think there is no evidence an ordinary good coach can. Maybe it’s possible, but we have no reason to think we know it is.
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Without picking sides, I'm in agreement with this. Look, Urban clearly has an agenda by burying Miami, he did it for years at Florida. In one breath, he praises USC for being close in proximity to talent, yet, in the next breath, he hates on Miami despite it having a similar recruiting hotbead of talent and the dynamics of the schools being very similar.

That said, I think the gist of his argument is, if you think you can go to a school like Miami, FSU, or Florida and not identity, recruit, and develop the right kids, you will struggle like Shannon, Golden, later years of Coker, and now Manny has. I think people saw what Erickson did and underestimated that he was actually a **** good xs and os coach and could identify talent. Butch was fabulous at identifying talent and developing that talent.

These modern coaches that UM has hired, overestimated their skill set and underestimated how much work it actually takes to win a championship at Miami. This is why I know Manny will fail eventually because he clearly has not put in the work necessary to be successful. Too much bravado, chains, yachts, and not enough work.
 
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