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UFC 239

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OriginalGatorHater said:
I agree with your main point, but comparing Royce to Askren is ridiculous.

Royce was good when he first started because he was beating up on bums who had never even heard of an armbar. The guy fought like journeyman boxer in his first match who was wearing a boxing glove. The guy expected it to be some sort of WWE style event and was asking Royce not to hurt him before he even stepped in the cage. All of his early fights were people that were hand picked to make BJJ look like the greatest martial art on the planet.

Royce wasn't even the best BJJ guy in his family let alone the world.

Askren is hands down the best folk style wrestler in MMA period. Folk style ground game schits on Greco and Freestyle ground game that is why when he gets on top of people and "lays on them" it is rare to see someone get back up without a ref standing them back up. If this was a real fight with no rounds being able to take someone down and hold them down with some GnP until they tired themselves out is a great tactic. It may look boring to people who have never wrestled before, but if you want to just see aggressiveness you can tune into the BKB championship.

That being said the guy is going to need to learn some striking.
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Only reason I compared the two was in reference to being one-dimensional. I could've rattled off ten names I just chose to use Royce because it was so clear how one dimensional he was in two distinct eras of the UFC and when he went up against a proper opponent, he looked like a fish out of water. I am aware of the history. Royce was chosen because he was the smallest and was not the best and the Gracie's felt thats exactly what they needed to show dominance.

Askren may be the best folk-style wrestler in the world and that could prove to be extremely effective if he combined it with something else. A vicious GnP maybe? But the fact that his striking is so poor, he's not going to finish very many fights. I've done martial arts my entire life and wrestled in high school so this is something I truly love and try to study. Ben was successful at ONE fighting championship which is good and all, but is not the UFC. He was nearly killed by Robbie Lawler, and was given a knee piece and a coma last night by Jorge. What he needs to understand the most is his place. He was talking crap about great fighters just to get a shot at a big fight. He got that shot and was put away quick.
 
armandose23 said:
Only reason I compared the two was in reference to being one-dimensional. I could've rattled off ten names I just chose to use Royce because it was so clear how one dimensional he was in two distinct eras of the UFC and when he went up against a proper opponent, he looked like a fish out of water. I am aware of the history. Royce was chosen because he was the smallest and was not the best and the Gracie's felt thats exactly what they needed to show dominance.

Askren may be the best folk-style wrestler in the world and that could prove to be extremely effective if he combined it with something else. A vicious GnP maybe? But the fact that his striking is so poor, he's not going to finish very many fights. I've done martial arts my entire life and wrestled in high school so this is something I truly love and try to study. Ben was successful at ONE fighting championship which is good and all, but is not the UFC. He was nearly killed by Robbie Lawler, and was given a knee piece and a coma last night by Jorge. What he needs to understand the most is his place. He was talking crap about great fighters just to get a shot at a big fight. He got that shot and was put away quick.
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He’s probably made a fortune off of it, too. He’s a smart dude, though no one could have expected the catastrophe from last night.
 
armandose23 said:
Only reason I compared the two was in reference to being one-dimensional. I could've rattled off ten names I just chose to use Royce because it was so clear how one dimensional he was in two distinct eras of the UFC and when he went up against a proper opponent, he looked like a fish out of water. I am aware of the history. Royce was chosen because he was the smallest and was not the best and the Gracie's felt thats exactly what they needed to show dominance.

Askren may be the best folk-style wrestler in the world and that could prove to be extremely effective if he combined it with something else. A vicious GnP maybe? But the fact that his striking is so poor, he's not going to finish very many fights. I've done martial arts my entire life and wrestled in high school so this is something I truly love and try to study. Ben was successful at ONE fighting championship which is good and all, but is not the UFC. He was nearly killed by Robbie Lawler, and was given a knee piece and a coma last night by Jorge. What he needs to understand the most is his place. He was talking crap about great fighters just to get a shot at a big fight. He got that shot and was put away quick.
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He still beat Lawler though and you can't base much off of a flash KO like the one last night. That is a learning experience for him. 0 chance he would get finished like that in a rematch with Masvidal. The fact that Masvidal even tried a hail marry style attack like that says it all.

The thing with BJJ vs Wrestling is that BJJ is literally useless against someone with a decent take down defense. Gracie was never going to take down a decent wrestler and he was much to old to really develop a TD game. Just look at how much better the kids that started wrestling at age 5 and competed through 17 at HS are. Compared to the kids who started wrestling in HS at 14 and go to mid 20s. The ones who start earlier are significantly better. Much more so than the difference between strikers who follow similar paths.

Gracie basically had to stand and bang with anyone with a decent TD defense and we all saw how that worked out.

An amazing wrestler with schit striking is still going to be able to take down a decent amount of opponents like Askren did to lawler. At that point he is going to win the round at the very least by just riding the fighter.
 
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armandose23 said:
I agree with you here. Being a one dimensional fighter in today's UFC is a death sentence. Look at what happened to Royce Gracie when he came back to fight Matt Hughes. The term MMA was initially in reference to a mixed bag of martial arts fighting each other. Boxer vs Wrester, Karate vs kickboxing, etc. Nowadays, MMA has almost become its own martial art. Guys need to train everything from punches, kicks, elbows, knees, wrestling, jiu-jitsu to be competitive, obviously always having a base art that is their bread and butter.

I don't think the Maia comparison is correct though. Demian Maia is a world class Jiu-Jitsu artist. Its a different game, a different squeeze and he still couldn't submit Masvidal. Askren is a pure wrestler. His go to move most of the time is the double leg and he just lays on people for rounds and sometimes puts together a little bit of ground and pound and can put together some basic chokes. All in all, I am happy as **** that our 305 native got the brutal knockout over that Iowa farm boy/Wisconsin cheese curd Ben Askren. I can't stand how condescending he is and how he thought he was above everyone somehow. The guy considers himself to be highly intellectual and witty and it got him knocked out in the most brutal fashion and was on the wrong side of a UFC record tonight. Maybe a little less talking and a little more mitt work for him.
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Askren is not from Iowa. He actually hates Iowa and Iowa hates him.
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
I agree with your main point, but comparing Royce to Askren is ridiculous.

Royce was good when he first started because he was beating up on bums who had never even heard of an armbar. The guy fought like journeyman boxer in his first match who was wearing a boxing glove. The guy expected it to be some sort of WWE style event and was asking Royce not to hurt him before he even stepped in the cage. All of his early fights were people that were hand picked to make BJJ look like the greatest martial art on the planet.

Royce wasn't even the best BJJ guy in his family let alone the world.

Askren is hands down the best folk style wrestler in MMA period. Folk style ground game schits on Greco and Freestyle ground game that is why when he gets on top of people and "lays on them" it is rare to see someone get back up without a ref standing them back up. If this was a real fight with no rounds being able to take someone down and hold them down with some GnP until they tired themselves out is a great tactic. It may look boring to people who have never wrestled before, but if you want to just see aggressiveness you can tune into the BKB championship.

That being said the guy is going to need to learn some striking.
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Looks like he will need to learn some defense as well.
 
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OriginalGatorHater said:
He still beat Lawler though and you can't base much off of a flash KO like the one last night. That is a learning experience for him. 0 chance he would get finished like that in a rematch with Masvidal. The fact that Masvidal even tried a hail marry style attack like that says it all.

The thing with BJJ vs Wrestling is that BJJ is literally useless against someone with a decent take down defense. Gracie was never going to take down a decent wrestler and he was much to old to really develop a TD game. Just look at how much better the kids that started wrestling at age 5 and competed through 17 at HS are. Compared to the kids who started wrestling in HS at 14 and go to mid 20s. The ones who start earlier are significantly better. Much more so than the difference between strikers who follow similar paths.

Gracie basically had to stand and bang with anyone with a decent TD defense and we all saw how that worked out.

An amazing wrestler with schit striking is still going to be able to take down a decent amount of opponents like Askren did to lawler. At that point he is going to win the round at the very least by just riding the fighter.
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The beat Lawler part is questionable at best. There was a discrepancy there. The almighty Ben Askren got slammed on to his head in the worst way a wrestler could be slammed. Robbie was not out. Herb Dean explained that what he was really concerned about was the potential danger for Robbie's C-spine because of the awkward position of the bulldog choke. The worst part about it was Askren not wanting to give Robbie the rematch. That's a clear indication as to what Ben really felt about the fight. He knows that he was getting beat within an inch of his life and if he rematched Robbie it would be worse. If you're a real martial artist and a true competitor, and there is even a shadow of a doubt on your win, you want to run it back to prove that you're really the top dog and silence all the doubters. Ben did not want any of that smoke.

It's pretty clear that you favor wrestlers. I favor strikers because thats my base even though I did wrestle competitively at one point, and I LOVE wrestling. But if you put a wrestler and a BJJ guy in a grappling match, I favor the BJJ guy all the way. At that point, the BJJ guy will let the wrestler take him down because that is his comfort zone. Now if you're talking about a BJJ purist, like Demian Maia for example, vs a solid wrestler who defends the TD and can rely on something else like striking to win the fight than obviously I give him the edge. But that just reinforces my original stance which is, you can't be a one dimensional fighter anymore in MMA and certainly not at the highest level of competition in the UFC.

The Hail Mary is nonsense. Everyone knows Ben is going to duck his head and go in for the double leg. Fighters aren't required to fight in a certain way to allow their opponents to do what they want. Ben doesn't stand with strikers to allow them to turn the fight in to a kickboxing match. He plays to his strengths. Chances are a rematch wouldn't end that way, absolutely right. But Masvidal has a solid takedown/scramble and he was going to hit Askren with knees and elbows every time he came in. Ben was going to get dirtied up in the worst way and at the end, this is a fight not a grappling or wrestling match. No one wants to see someone ride out rounds for points. Thats what wrestling matches are for. At the very least you look to GnP and do damage.
 
armandose23 said:
The beat Lawler part is questionable at best. There was a discrepancy there. The almighty Ben Askren got slammed on to his head in the worst way a wrestler could be slammed. Robbie was not out. Herb Dean explained that what he was really concerned about was the potential danger for Robbie's C-spine because of the awkward position of the bulldog choke. The worst part about it was Askren not wanting to give Robbie the rematch. That's a clear indication as to what Ben really felt about the fight. He knows that he was getting beat within an inch of his life and if he rematched Robbie it would be worse. If you're a real martial artist and a true competitor, and there is even a shadow of a doubt on your win, you want to run it back to prove that you're really the top dog and silence all the doubters. Ben did not want any of that smoke.

It's pretty clear that you favor wrestlers. I favor strikers because thats my base even though I did wrestle competitively at one point, and I LOVE wrestling. But if you put a wrestler and a BJJ guy in a grappling match, I favor the BJJ guy all the way. At that point, the BJJ guy will let the wrestler take him down because that is his comfort zone. Now if you're talking about a BJJ purist, like Demian Maia for example, vs a solid wrestler who defends the TD and can rely on something else like striking to win the fight than obviously I give him the edge. But that just reinforces my original stance which is, you can't be a one dimensional fighter anymore in MMA and certainly not at the highest level of competition in the UFC.

The Hail Mary is nonsense. Everyone knows Ben is going to duck his head and go in for the double leg. Fighters aren't required to fight in a certain way to allow their opponents to do what they want. Ben doesn't stand with strikers to allow them to turn the fight in to a kickboxing match. He plays to his strengths. Chances are a rematch wouldn't end that way, absolutely right. But Masvidal has a solid takedown/scramble and he was going to hit Askren with knees and elbows every time he came in. Ben was going to get dirtied up in the worst way and at the end, this is a fight not a grappling or wrestling match. No one wants to see someone ride out rounds for points. Thats what wrestling matches are for. At the very least you look to GnP and do damage.
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I agree that a real fighter should go for the rematch. Look at the Thai guys records. A lot of them have over 300 fights having had many rematches with the same guys.

However, Lawlers stoppage was legit. No fighter is going to tap out from something like that, but it could cause permanent damage or kill you. Its the same reason why they stop boxing matches for cuts. Fighters are not going to ***** out and will risk permanent eye damage before they give up. Herb had to step in in that situation.

That is false. I prefer strikers. I have been boxing since I was about 6 years old. Standup, particularly hands are my favorite part of a fight. However, I am being pragmatic in this discussion.

You are 100% right the BJJ guy is going to beat the pure wrestler on the ground 9 x out of 10. Mainly because the pure wrestlers really have no idea how to GnP. Look at the first Severn vs Gracie fight. Severn was clearly the dominant fighter, but had no idea how to finish the match. However, with a bit of GnP training it turns into a 50/50.

Also, wrestlers 9/10 times are going to be much stronger/aggressive than a BJJ guy so if they know the guy is a BJJ guy they are just going to keep it standing and an untrained wrestler is going to beat an untrained BJJ guy in standup 9/10 times. That was my point.

I never said being one dimensional is good. I am just saying if there is anyone that can be one dimensional it is going to be a great wrestler like Askren.

It was the very definition of a hail Mary. Had he mis typed it he would have gotten taken down immediately. The risk was worth it since it worked out, but don't make it seem like he was dominant because he won so quickly. In the rematch I see Askren winning by points.

UFC is supposed to simulate a street fight. If you take someone down in the street and tire them out you are probably going to win the fight. That was why TDs and riding out is awarded so many points. I understand why someone may call it boring, but this is a fight. Do you not remember all the casuals whining about the BJJ guys "lying on the ground" back in the BJJ era?
 
I guess we can agree to disagree on the Lawler stoppage like most of the MMA community does. Against a guy like Askren, even throwing a high kick or moving forward too aggressively puts you at risk of being taken down. ****, just stepping in to the ring with him is a major risk. But Masvidal's camp practices these things. There's a video of him practicing the exact same move with the delayed walk out, sprint, and everything two days before the fight. It was a calculated risk but so are most things against Ben if what you are measuring them by is the likelihood of being taken down. A family member of mine is an amateur under Masvidal and is his friend and training partner. If you listen to him on the Rogan Podcast, Masvidal gives him a shoutout and everything.

Ultimately it is boring to the average fan. I don't mind it per say as long as the fighter is actively trying to submit or GnP. Kinda like the Chiesa/Sanchez fight. Chiesa was actively trying to set him up for a submission and I loved that. It's the same thing in baseball. Very few people find pitcher's duals exciting. But Askren doesn't really do that. He just rides out his opponents and wins on points.

I really don't thing Askren wins in a rematch. I think he has a little more success but I don't think he withstands the constant chipping away. And unless he can submit Masvidal (Not even Demian Maia could do that), I actually see Masvidal winning on points due to striking because of Askren's inactivity.
 
My issue with the Jones as the GOAT is that he doesn’t have many dominant finishes.

Silva had a stretch when he was cruising to boring decisions, but then he followed that up with some of the greatest finishes we’ve ever seen.

Jones is bigger than everyone he fights and has fought his share of overmatched opponents. Why isn’t he making a highlight reel? Santos had one leg and he still had Jones fighting cautious.
 
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DMoney said:
My issue with the Jones as the GOAT is that he doesn’t have many dominant finishes.

Silva had a stretch when he was cruising to boring decisions, but then he followed that up with some of the greatest finishes we’ve ever seen.

Jones is bigger than everyone he fights and has fought his share of overmatched opponents. Why isn’t he making a highlight reel? Santos had one leg and he still had Jones fighting cautious.
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I'm convinced Jones thought he was cruising in that fight. Had no awareness of how judges were scoring. From my seat, it looked like a very close dog fight that Jones refused to close on. At times in the 3rd and early 4th round, it just looked like Jones was circling the clearly very injured Santos and every time they started to scrap, Jones eased up and didn't even go for an easy take down when Santos was off balance. Kept pirouetting around the ring.
 
armandose23 said:
I guess we can agree to disagree on the Lawler stoppage like most of the MMA community does. Against a guy like Askren, even throwing a high kick or moving forward too aggressively puts you at risk of being taken down. ****, just stepping in to the ring with him is a major risk. But Masvidal's camp practices these things. There's a video of him practicing the exact same move with the delayed walk out, sprint, and everything two days before the fight. It was a calculated risk but so are most things against Ben if what you are measuring them by is the likelihood of being taken down. A family member of mine is an amateur under Masvidal and is his friend and training partner. If you listen to him on the Rogan Podcast, Masvidal gives him a shoutout and everything.

Ultimately it is boring to the average fan. I don't mind it per say as long as the fighter is actively trying to submit or GnP. Kinda like the Chiesa/Sanchez fight. Chiesa was actively trying to set him up for a submission and I loved that. It's the same thing in baseball. Very few people find pitcher's duals exciting. But Askren doesn't really do that. He just rides out his opponents and wins on points.

I really don't thing Askren wins in a rematch. I think he has a little more success but I don't think he withstands the constant chipping away. And unless he can submit Masvidal (Not even Demian Maia could do that), I actually see Masvidal winning on points due to striking because of Askren's inactivity.
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I think all MMA fans would love to see less stoppages. I know I would. I am sure Ben would have liked them to keep it going so he could have finished him and silenced the critics. Lawler probably would have wanted them to keep it going because every fighter likes to think they can just hold out a little longer until the bell rings. However, we all know that if a serious injury happened to Lawler fans would be calling for Herbs head. So I fully understand why he would stop it.

Well that explains the bias. Of course he trained it lol. You don't just decide to throw a hail mary like that while your name is being announced. He obviously said to his team. "lets try this out, worst case scenario I think I can survive 5 min on the ground and not get finished". That doesn't make it any less of a hail Mary. It was a long shot move that just happened to be successful. If Ben reacted slightly differently he would have been on ESPN not top 10 for trying a "crazy move" and getting slammed on his head. I don't think he would submit masvidal either, but I do see him winning on points because of how much more weighted take downs and ground control are in the UFC.

BJJ is at a massive disadvantage in modern MMA because of the stand ups and rounds. Put Maia vs Masvidal in an untimed bout with no standups and Masvidal is getting submitted.

I agree. Lots of people find it boring, but that is his skill. He is not going to to change it up because fans don't like it.
 
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OriginalGatorHater said:
I think all MMA fans would love to see less stoppages. I know I would. I am sure Ben would have liked them to keep it going so he could have finished him and silenced the critics. Lawler probably would have wanted them to keep it going because every fighter likes to think they can just hold out a little longer until the bell rings. However, we all know that if a serious injury happened to Lawler fans would be calling for Herbs head. So I fully understand why he would stop it.

Well that explains the bias. Of course he trained it lol. You don't just decide to throw a hail mary like that while your name is being announced. He obviously said to his team. "lets try this out, worst case scenario I think I can survive 5 min on the ground and not get finished". That doesn't make it any less of a hail Mary. It was a long shot move that just happened to be successful. If Ben reacted slightly differently he would have been on ESPN not top 10 for trying a "crazy move" and getting slammed on his head. I don't think he would submit masvidal either, but I do see him winning on points because of how much more weighted take downs and ground control are in the UFC.

BJJ is at a massive disadvantage in modern MMA because of the stand ups and rounds. Put Maia vs Masvidal in an untimed bout with no standups and Masvidal is getting submitted.

I agree. Lots of people find it boring, but that is his skill. He is not going to to change it up because fans don't like it.
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I am a fan of Masvidal and I love seeing him win and win big like he did last night but don't get it twisted, I am a fan of the sport overall and am a straight shooter. There's no bias here I assure you, happiness yes, bias no. Everything in fighting is a calculated risk. Especially when you're trying to avoid getting taken down by an all time wrestler. You're trying to downplay Masvidal's domination of Ben Askren to make it seem like it was more luck and less skill and game planning. Taking advantage of a "tell" or deficiency in a fighter's style in order to exploit an opening and knock someone out in 5 seconds shows just how on point his preparation and strategy was. It was no more a Hail Mary than throwing a haymaker and connecting which happens every day in the sport. If Ben was not so predictable in lowering his head every time, that knee wouldn't have been attempted. No he didn't decide to use it during introductions per say, they had it ready and it was Masvidal who could decide when he wanted to use it or not.

The hypothetical matchups are lost on me in this conversation. If I were to say to put Maia vs Masvidal in an untimed bout where ground game was not allowed, only standup, I could also guarantee that Maia would get knocked out. But we're not talking about that. Within the rules of the UFC, the same rules that applied in last night's fight, Maia could not submit Masvidal, and therefore is why I said I doubt that Askren would submit Masvidal. If you want to argue that Ben could probably win by taking him down and just laying on him, I would agree, in fact that is how I could've seen Masvidal lose. But that is not fighting. That is a wrestling match. If he's not actively trying to submit someone or GnP, its not a fight.
 
armandose23 said:
Don't know if he hates Iowa and Iowa hates him but it says on his bio he was born in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
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When I say he hates Iowa, it is mainly about his jabs that he takes at the university of Iowa’s wrestling program. There has been a back and forth for years and I don’t know too many people who care for him. Great wrestler but too big of a mouth.

I thought he was born in Wisconsin. Wikipedia says he was born in Cedar Rapids but I see other websites that say he was born in Wisconsin. I don’t recall ever hearing that he was born in Iowa but that wouldn’t be the first thing that I have missed.
 
Cane_lover said:
When I say he hates Iowa, it is mainly about his jabs that he takes at the university of Iowa’s wrestling program. There has been a back and forth for years and I don’t know too many people who care for him. Great wrestler but too big of a mouth.

I thought he was born in Wisconsin. Wikipedia says he was born in Cedar Rapids but I see other websites that say he was born in Wisconsin. I don’t recall ever hearing that he was born in Iowa but that wouldn’t be the first thing that I have missed.
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Oh I didn't know he's taken jabs specifically against Iowa Wrestling. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. He is too big of a mouth and it's just the condescending way that he does it. It's not funny, its not witty, its just annoying. Thats why I was happy that Jordan Burroughs also completely annihilated him in a wrestling match as well. Burroughs is Burroughs but still. Last two matches Ben has had have been humbling experiences for him.
 
armandose23 said:
I am a fan of Masvidal and I love seeing him win and win big like he did last night but don't get it twisted, I am a fan of the sport overall and am a straight shooter. There's no bias here I assure you, happiness yes, bias no. Everything in fighting is a calculated risk. Especially when you're trying to avoid getting taken down by an all time wrestler. You're trying to downplay Masvidal's domination of Ben Askren to make it seem like it was more luck and less skill and game planning. Taking advantage of a "tell" or deficiency in a fighter's style in order to exploit an opening and knock someone out in 5 seconds shows just how on point his preparation and strategy was. It was no more a Hail Mary than throwing a haymaker and connecting which happens every day in the sport. If Ben was not so predictable in lowering his head every time, that knee wouldn't have been attempted. No he didn't decide to use it during introductions per say, they had it ready and it was Masvidal who could decide when he wanted to use it or not.

The hypothetical matchups are lost on me in this conversation. If I were to say to put Maia vs Masvidal in an untimed bout where ground game was not allowed, only standup, I could also guarantee that Maia would get knocked out. But we're not talking about that. Within the rules of the UFC, the same rules that applied in last night's fight, Maia could not submit Masvidal, and therefore is why I said I doubt that Askren would submit Masvidal. If you want to argue that Ben could probably win by taking him down and just laying on him, I would agree, in fact that is how I could've seen Masvidal lose. But that is not fighting. That is a wrestling match. If he's not actively trying to submit someone or GnP, its not a fight.
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You are correct I am downplaying the "domination". The guy won fair and square. He was the better fighter last night, but I seriously doubt you ever competed at a high level if you really consider a flash knockout like that "domination".

It is completely different from throwing a haymaker. Even if you just waltz out the corner and throw a haymaker as your opening punch. No set up or anything. You are still only opening yourself up so much. This was the very definition of a hail mary shot. Very high risk, high reward type shot.

That is an absurdly ridiculous statement. I simply removed time limits, which is what a real fight is. You are adding in these crazy other considerations.

I never said Askren would submit Masvidal. I said he would win by points. That is fighting. You must have never been in a real fight if you don't consider that fighting. In fact it is closer to fighting that what the UFC provides.

No one gets stood up or having rounds end in a real fight. Controlling someone on the ground for 30+ minutes until they gas out and just pounding them out is real fighting.
 
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