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OT: Was Kobe the most competitive player in league history?

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skeeter said:
Mj (def 1)...next 5 order is tough for me
Magic
Wc
Bird
Lbj
Kareem
Shaq
Olajuwon

-then the next 4some combo of russell, barkley, bryant, big O

- round out top 15: duncan, malone, ???

(Maybe elgin baylor?, d wade, West, mchale, zeke?, durant, nowitzki? for last spot?)
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Well, at least you didn't have Russell in your top 5 like many do (I don't). I think Kobe fits in the 5-7 range. I would put him slightly above LBJ.
 
AUcane said:
Well, at least you didn't have Russell in your top 5 like many do (I don't). I think Kobe fits in the 5-7 range. I would put him slightly above LBJ.
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i put LBJ above him bc of a more well rounded game and his passing ability. And because although I totally understand Bryant was a volume shooter, he just needed to be better at it, missed too manyshot for top 5-7 status imo
 
HurricaneHauk said:
@305to954 thought it was based off competitiveness not all time players
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First..y’all stop disrespecting shaq..was the most dominant offensive force to ever play in his prime..now, It’s impossible to judge “competitiveness”. For example nobody mentioned a name like Tim Duncan and the Spurs were in contention literally every **** year of his career..and I think that is mainly due to his mannerisms on the court..he looked like a nice guy but was a great competitor and is on my top 10 a slot above Kobe..but we all know Kobe was looking to drop 40 every night and played both sides when needed he was a all time great on ball pest, but he didn’t ALWAys take the top assignment on D but in moments when the offense wasn’t running through him he could..Kobe and AI were my first fave athletes along with Griffey and jeter.
 
The below link is footage of Kobe Bryant in a slam dunk contest at 15-years-old. To say that this man was “athletically limited” is asinine. He was an amazingly gifted athlete. Not on MJ’s level, but then again, there is only one MJ.

Top all time guys that you did not want to see take the last shot if they were playing your team in my opinion are MJ, Reggie Miller, KB, Bird, Magic, Billups, Steph, Robert Horry, Kenny Smith, and Ray Allen. All deadly in the clutch.

philadelphia.cbslocal.com

WATCH: Newly Released Footage Shows 15-Year-Old Kobe Bryant Participating In Slam Dunk Contest In 1994

Newly released footage of Kobe Bryant shows off his incredible skills as a young prodigy at Lower Merion High School.
philadelphia.cbslocal.com philadelphia.cbslocal.com
 
305to954 said:
First..y’all stop disrespecting shaq..was the most dominant offensive force to ever play in his prime..now, It’s impossible to judge “competitiveness”. For example nobody mentioned a name like Tim Duncan and the Spurs were in contention literally every **** year of his career..and I think that is mainly due to his mannerisms on the court..he looked like a nice guy but was a great competitor and is on my top 10 a slot above Kobe..but we all know Kobe was looking to drop 40 every night and played both sides when needed he was a all time great on ball pest, but he didn’t ALWAys take the top assignment on D but in moments when the offense wasn’t running through him he could..Kobe and AI were my first fave athletes along with Griffey and jeter.
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Upvote for Griffey. My favorite athlete of all time Main reason why I always rocked 24, and 3 coming up. That’s where the 3 in my username come from lol
 
craval85 said:
Again..you're still not understanding. This entire discussion is only pertaining to Defense. Not Offense or Competitiveness. So why are you comparing their career stats?? It doesn't make sense. Kobe made the ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM 12 TIMES!!! Larry made it 3 times, but yet you still think Larry is a better defender than Kobe? How??!!! Obviously Kobe didn't guard Duncan or Robinson when they played the Spurs, because he's a Guard. I don't understand why thats even worth mentioning, when I specifically said that he's one of the best PERIMETER DEFENDERS of all time. Meaning when the opposing team's best offensive player was a perimeter player, he accepts & conquers that challenge more than other players. I brought up Lebron, because he's the greatest SF of all time, and he's not even a better defender than Kobe.
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Cut the crap.

You said he defended the best opposing player, I pointed out the inaccuracy of that statement.

As for the "all defensive team" bullsh!te, I will take ACTUAL STATISTICS and ACTUAL PERFORMANCE over "voted-on-by-sportswriter awards" every single time. Good lord, take a look at the list of Heisman winners lately, and then try to tell me that popularity contests should inform us about who the best players are.

Kobe was **** good, don't even act like I am saying he is garbage. But when you get into a conversation about the very highest echelon, yes, then we are making very small distinctions. And in THAT regard, I am absolutely going to look at stats over "popularity awards".

As for this entire discussion being about defense and not competitiveness, wrong. It originated in competitiveness. People cited DEFENSE as being one of the issues that can create VERY FINE DISTINCTIONS between the best of the best.

Kobe practiced and worked his butt off on offense. But he did not have nearly the same passion for defense that Bird, Magic, Zeke, or Jordan had. Yes, Kobe had superior athletics to those four guys, in his overall size, speed, and agility. As a total physical package, Kobe exceeds those four.

And, yes, KOBE WANTED TO WIN. But that is not the same as competitiveness, and those four guys (Bird, Magic, Zeke, and Jordan) were so competitive that they accomplished things that their genetics and abilities should not have allowed them to accomplish. And those four guys had an insane passion for defense, moreso than Kobe.

I guaran-*******-tee you that the Gold Glove Award doesn't go to the best defender each year. Some guys win a few awards when they are young, and then the baseball writers start to give them the award each year out of habit. That's been going on for decades, particularly for any sports award based on defense.
 
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HighSeas said:
3 dudes who lack reading comprehension. Where did I say Westbrook is on Kobe's level in any way? The point is they craft images of themselves as tough guy warriors and fierce competitors when they take off as many plays on D as anyone. And miss me with the all defense stuff cause any legit NBA analyst knows that Kobe had no business getting most of those nods. Those are media awards and the media had no clue how to evaluate defenders until recently.
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Truth and light.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Cut the crap.

You said he defended the best opposing player, I pointed out the inaccuracy of that statement.

As for the "all defensive team" bullsh!te, I will take ACTUAL STATISTICS and ACTUAL PERFORMANCE over "voted-on-by-sportswriter awards" every single time. Good lord, take a look at the list of Heisman winners lately, and then try to tell me that popularity contests should inform us about who the best players are.

Kobe was **** good, don't even act like I am saying he is garbage. But when you get into a conversation about the very highest echelon, yes, then we are making very small distinctions. And in THAT regard, I am absolutely going to look at stats over "popularity awards".

As for this entire discussion being about defense and not competitiveness, wrong. It originated in competitiveness. People cited DEFENSE as being one of the issues that can create VERY FINE DISTINCTIONS between the best of the best.

Kobe practiced and worked his butt off on offense. But he did not have nearly the same passion for defense that Bird, Magic, Zeke, or Jordan had. Yes, Kobe had superior athletics to those four guys, in his overall size, speed, and agility. As a total physical package, Kobe exceeds those four.

And, yes, KOBE WANTED TO WIN. But that is not the same as competitiveness, and those four guys (Bird, Magic, Zeke, and Jordan) were so competitive that they accomplished things that their genetics and abilities should not have allowed them to accomplish. And those four guys had an insane passion for defense, moreso than Kobe.

I guaran-*******-tee you that the Gold Glove Award doesn't go to the best defender each year. Some guys win a few awards when they are young, and then the baseball writers start to give them the award each year out of habit. That's been going on for decades, particularly for any sports award based on defense.
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Again..for the millionth time, you're STILL not understanding. My original response to you was only regarding DEFENSE. The All-Defensive team selection is NOT a media or sportswriter award. It is voted by actual coaches that really know basketball. Not some stat nerds like yourself. Stats are a product of many things, and should not be viewed as the deciding factor when judging which player is superior. Throughout NBA history, there have been many rule changes, which have allowed different skillsets to be featured. Big Man vs 1 on 1 iso vs. 3 pt Euro style, etc. Not to mention the emergence of advanced analytics. It is ridiculous to try to compare eras by only making statistical arguments. Only a neophyte, or someone who possesses a very limited understanding about the game would do something like that.

All Defensive Team selections

Isaiah Thomas - 0

Larry Bird - 3

Kobe Bryant - 12

en.wikipedia.org

NBA All-Defensive Team - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

"Prior to the 2013–14 NBA season, voting was performed by the NBA head coaches, who were restricted from voting for players on their own team."
 
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When I think about competitive players I think about guys that wanted that smoke nightly like Patrick Beverly, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, guys that wanted to embarrass you for challenging them like Reggie Miller, AI, Shawn Kemp. Few guys reach the league that don’t have that competitive killer mentality. These are just some that stood out to me least.
 
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Not sure if it's been mentioned, but BPM also provides insight into the argument of "competitive" and/or "greatness." Here's an explanation:
www.basketball-reference.com

About Box Plus/Minus (BPM) | Basketball-Reference.com

About Box/Plus Minus (BPM)
www.basketball-reference.com www.basketball-reference.com
And stats since 73 - 74:
www.basketball-reference.com

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Box Plus/Minus | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com
www.basketball-reference.com www.basketball-reference.com
IMO, Sir Charles doesn't get the respect he deserves. I'd take the Round Mound of Rebound any day of the week over Kobe. Tough > Pretty.
 
Kobe was without a doubt, known for his work ethic.

He's only a small step behind Jordan and Russell as obsessed winners. Magic and Bird as well.

But only a small step.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Without Bird, it is VERY unlikely that Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, and Dennis Johnson would be in the NBA Hall of Fame. Maybe Bill Walton just misses out too, without his late-career renaissance playing with Bird.
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Correction, without Red Auerbach Johnson & Parish wouldn't be HOFers, Johnson & Parish were already Made Men before Auerbach swung those deals to acquire them...Bird had nothing to do with that.

And LOL, LMAO, BOL, ROFLMAO, & LMFAO at using steals as the only metric to judge defensive prowess.
 
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