OT: The Last Dance

[Rellyrell]

Greats was getting traded and paired with other greats long before the big 3 C’s..but I agree with your conclusion. Bruh this debate never gonna go away until the next young bull comes through

That’s what makes sports great man. When I was in Vegas, went to a Chicago themed bar. A regular comes through; dude is a DIE HARD Boston fan w the tats to prove it. So we’re just going back & forth about Bird & MJ. Man, it was all love, no name calling or disrespect, just two loud drunk dudes hugging it out, buying each other drinks, hitting on the servers. Lol. When folks take the debate talk way left, that’s when I gotta problem. Sports debates should never get to that level; w/o debates there’s no examination, reflection, and most importantly, CONTENT.

I also feel u never need to tear down one player to elevate another. I would never say “LBJ is weak af” just to make MJ look better than he already is. I would & im sure anyone w a sound mind, would kill for LBJ to be on their squad. Just b/c I don’t think he’s the GOAT, don’t mean I don’t enjoy watching him, rooting against him, or buying his merch. And the rooting against is b/c he’s a Laker and being that I’m from LA, it brings me great joy to let all their fans (who are my friends & family) know how weak they are as a franchise. Lol.

 

[305to954]

That’s what makes sports great man. When I was in Vegas, went to a Chicago themed bar. A regular comes through; dude is a DIE HARD Boston fan w the tats to prove it. So we’re just going back & forth about Bird & MJ. Man, it was all love, no name calling or disrespect, just two loud drunk dudes hugging it out, buying each other drinks, hitting on the servers. Lol. When folks take the debate talk way left, that’s when I gotta problem. Sports debates should never get to that level; w/o debates there’s no examination, reflection, and most importantly, CONTENT.

I also feel u never need to tear down one player to elevate another. I would never say “LBJ is weak af” just to make MJ look better than he already is. I would & im sure anyone w a sound mind, would kill for LBJ to be on their squad. Just b/c I don’t think he’s the GOAT, don’t mean I don’t enjoy watching him, rooting against him, or buying his merch. And the rooting against is b/c he’s a Laker and being that I’m from LA, it brings me great joy to let all their fans (who are my friends & family) know how weak they are as a franchise. Lol.

Sound thoughts right there G

 

[SWFLHurricane]

Can you imagine what Jordan would have done with a Dominant Big Man during his career??.....He didn't have that benefit like Bird...Magic...etc had....Its F-ing Astounding to me to be 6-0 in Finals without a Legitimate Big Man.....

 

[HurricaneHauk]

Can you imagine what Jordan would have done with a Dominant Big Man during his career??.....He didn't have that benefit like Bird...Magic...etc had....Its F-ing Astounding to me to be 6-0 in Finals without a Legitimate Big Man.....

Grant was legit

Too bad now we find out he’s a ***** boy making the rounds on every media outlet trying to tarnish MJ

Must have been upset MJ told the flight attendant to not feed him

 

[bacane]

none of them had any insight into The Last Dance so hence why they made no appearance, until there was some public pushback and they were filmed a few weeks ago and edited into the penultimate chapter.

Yeah, right? Don't believe his wife ever spoke & one of few appearances was alongside Michael at press conference when he retired to play minor league baseball. You really think the wife didn't have important insight into things like his first retirement and the aftermath of his father's death? So, instead Ahmad Rashad weighed in on Michael's deep feelings (Lol).
There's one reason why the wife wasn't interviewed. Michael & ESPN partnered on the documentary. Jordan would have raised **** & pulled out if his ex-wife offered her version of events.

 

[Trafficante]

Lol LBJ got more playoff buzzers then MJ and kobe..that’s what kills me, y’all talk out y’all as and y’all fav line is “2011 against Dallas”...but imagine being so great at something that you get accused of “padding stats” in a NBA finals and on the highest level of your comp lmao. Like said y’all confuse style of play with mentality. Kobe, MJ are SCORERS..if Lebron was to be compared as far as styles to a past player it would be Big O or magic based the all around aspect to his game..my favorite players of all time are AI, Kobe, LBJ and dwade..my top 3 in no order to ever lace em are Kareem, MJ and Bron..you don’t know basketball If u can’t respect each of those 3 greatness without tryna **** on another player..that’s my whole issue with ppl who think like you. Lebron and the Lakers could win 3 straight And y’all would still **** on the man..why? Idek lol..as for Lebron in the 90s he’d still be “stat padding” walking around with 27-7-7..great players translate and adapt in any era..don’t let skip bayless fool y’all, he don’t really know basketball. MJ ppl just got him on payroll and throw him free merch every now and then

1.) The argument is not whether or not LBJ is a great player. The argument is whether or not he's the GOAT. That in addition to wearing #23, and being one of the preeminent players of his generation is why he gets compared to Mike. If you want to concede that the GOAT comparison is over, and that he'll never be on Mike's level, and only compare him to Magic or Oscar i'm fine with that.

2.) He gets accused of padding stats because LBJ apologists like yourself always bring up his stat line in losing efforts to absolve him of responsibility when he routinely falls short of achieving the ultimate goal. Bringing up his stats without placing them in their proper context only shows how hollow & easily manipulated stats can be.

3.) No matter how many times you keep saying that Mike was a poor 3-pt shooter it doesn't make it true. If you actually watched the excellent video that @Rellyrell linked you would've learned that Mike was actually an AVERAGE 3-pt shooter relative to the era that he played in. Compare that to LBJ who's actually a POOR 3-pt shooter relative to the era that he plays in. Also being an AVERAGE 3-pt shooter is by far the worst aspect of Mike's game. Compare that to the weaknesses of LBJ which are much more glaring. Particularly his free throw shooting, inconsistent/half-*** defense, poor shooting(beyond 3-ft), and his performance in the clutch(5-sec to go in regulation/overtime-regular season & playoffs)

 

[Trafficante]

We can all say this, but...

Phil approached Reinsdorf (when he was coaching the Lakers) and said he wanted to bury the hatchet with Krause. It was Krause who refused.

I'm not sure how Reinsdorf can FORCE Krause to do something.

And, look, I can't stand Krause. But imagine if Reinsdorf had fired Krause, the guy who put EVERY PLAYER (*except for Michael*) on that team, including Phil.

Krause put that team together, but his ego wouldn't allow him to maintain it or keep it going.

However, I will say that if Krause had been allowed to trade Pippen to the Celtics in 97, and he got Mercer and McGrady in the draft...good lord, MJ may have played another 6 years and Krause might be viewed as the greatest GM of all time.

It's too late to make amends for either side if Phil is coaching the Lakers. The bottomline is Reinsdorf should've never let it escalate to that pt. He should've realized that he was presiding over a once in a lifetime situation, and should've helped to reconcile the differences between the players & mgmt. He instead chose to fan the flames of the fire, by maintaining a hardline posture with regards to Pippen's contract situation. What the **** does the Bulls organization gain by being dogged & stubborn with Pippen when he was performing at a high level and helping to deliver championships? Yes, he's the one that signed the questionable contract, but it's also true that he outperformed it, and played an integral role in driving increased NBA revenue in the 90's. At no time in his career with the Bulls should Pippen have been the 122nd highest paid player in the league, and the front office should have capitulated and thrown him a bone.

 

[305to954]

1.) The argument is not whether or not LBJ is a great player. The argument is whether or not he's the GOAT. That in addition to wearing #23, and being one of the preeminent players of his generation is why he gets compared to Mike. If you want to concede that the GOAT comparison is over, and that he'll never be on Mike's level, and only compare him to Magic or Oscar i'm fine with that.

2.) He gets accused of padding stats because LBJ apologists like yourself always bring up his stat line in losing efforts to absolve him of responsibility when he routinely falls short of achieving the ultimate goal. Bringing up his stats without placing them in their proper context only shows how hollow & easily manipulated stats can be.

3.) No matter how many times you keep saying that Mike was a poor 3-pt shooter it doesn't make it true. If you actually watched the excellent video that @Rellyrell linked you would've learned that Mike was actually an AVERAGE 3-pt shooter relative to the era that he played in. Compare that to LBJ who's actually a POOR 3-pt shooter relative to the era that he plays in. Also being an AVERAGE 3-pt shooter is by far the worst aspect of Mike's game. Compare that to the weaknesses of LBJ which are much more glaring. Particularly his free throw shooting, inconsistent/half-*** defense, poor shooting(beyond 3-ft), and his performance in the clutch(5-sec to go in regulation/overtime-regular season & playoffs)

Lebron is not a poor 3pt shooter relative to his era and stature tho. The percentages don’t back up your claims. You look at mikes percentages from 3 in his era were the 3 wasn’t as prevalent, he wasn’t a great 3pt shooter. If he shot more 3s given the shooter he was in his era his efficiency would go down..that’s how that works for everyone ..That’s just factual..it doesn’t change because it’s Mj

..and for the last time my top 3 are MJ, Kareem and Lebron. Those are my GOATs..I don’t like really comparing MJ and Lebron on a individual level because it’s like comparing 2 totally different types of players. MJ was a athletic wing scorer and defender. Lebron is a pass first point forward and versatile defender. If you was to compare MJ to kobe and who was more effective in their time then that’s a debate u can have because they were so similar..

and stats’ are the stats..the only proper context y’all try to use the end result of Ws and Ls. as tho that result falls soley on one player despite his performance...when Mj was scoring 37-38 per game in the 80s..he was individually dominating..why was that? Because he was a solo act with great TEAMS going up against him..y’all would concede that but when it comes to Lebron oh he just didn’t get it done against 07 spurs with at supporting cast..didn’t get it done in 14 vs the spurs when dwade was hobbled and avg 13 on 40% from the field and bosh avg 14....didn’t get done when his team lost its 2nd and 3rd best players to start the finals in 15..didn’t get it done against the greatest collection of talent ever assembled and Lebron was just stat padding..****t crazy but a all time sports discussion lol

 

[305to954]

2011 is on the man resume. He was too passive towards wade. Idek if it was gameplan by the heat to run everything through wade but when you break down the usage numbers Lebrons was less then bosh. Lebron should’ve been more assertive tho. Spoeltra rotation and lineups were beyond questionable also. By the time Gm 6 came around it was too late and everybody was off

 

[Rellyrell]

It's too late to make amends for either side if Phil is coaching the Lakers. The bottomline is Reinsdorf should've never let it escalate it to that pt. He should've realized that he was presiding over a once in a lifetime situation, and should've helped to reconcile the differences between the players & mgmt. He instead chose to fan the flames of the fire, by maintaining a hardline posture with regards to Pippen's contract situation. What the **** does the Bulls organization gain by being dogged & stubborn with Pippen when he was performing at a high level and helping to deliver championships? Yes, he's the one that signed the questionable contract, but it's also true that he outperformed it, and played an integral role in driving increased NBA revenue in the 90's. At no time in his career with the Bulls should Pippen have been the 122nd highest paid player in the league, and the front office should have capitulated and thrown him a bone.

Reinsdorf is an ***, and honestly, as much as I dislike Flake James, I actually hate Jerry Reinsdork. He treats his team like they are a hobby. He’s cheap and a snake. I hate him and his entire family and wish someone had billions to buy him out. He’s a weasel in every sense of the word, and Krause was the easy scapegoat b/c of his insecurities.

 

[HurricaneHauk]

Reinsdorf is an ***, and honestly, as much as I dislike Flake James, I actually hate Jerry Reinsdork. He treats his team like they are a hobby. He’s cheap and a snake. I hate him and his entire family and wish someone had billions to buy him out. He’s a weasel in every since of the word, and Krause was the easy scape goat b/c of his insecurities.

Biggest mistake

team was trash for how long after they broke up the gang

 

[Trafficante]

Lebron is not a poor 3pt shooter relative to his era and stature tho. The percentages don’t back up your claims. You look at mikes percentages from 3 in his era were the 3 wasn’t as prevalent, he wasn’t a great 3pt shooter. If he shot more 3s given the shooter he was in his era his efficiency would go down..that’s how that works for everyone ..That’s just factual..it doesn’t change because it’s Mj

..and for the last time my top 3 are MJ, Kareem and Lebron. Those are my GOATs..I don’t like really comparing MJ and Lebron on a individual level because it’s like comparing 2 totally different types of players. MJ was a athletic wing scorer and defender. Lebron is a pass first point forward and versatile defender. If you was to compare MJ to kobe and who was more effective in their time then that’s a debate u can have because they were so similar..

and stats’ are the stats..the only proper context y’all try to use the end result of Ws and Ls. as tho that result falls soley on one player despite his performance...when Mj was scoring 37-38 per game in the 80s..he was individually dominating..why was that? Because he was a solo act with great TEAMS going up against him..y’all would concede that but when it comes to Lebron oh he just didn’t get it done against 07 spurs with at supporting cast..didn’t get it done in 14 vs the spurs when dwade was hobbled and avg 13 on 40% from the field and bosh avg 14....didn’t get done when his team lost its 2nd and 3rd best players to start the finals in 15..didn’t get it done against the greatest collection of talent ever assembled and Lebron was just stat padding..****t crazy but a all time sports discussion lol

1.) I don't understand why this is so difficult, but wow you are really struggling with this. For the 100th time, MJ WAS AN AVG 3-PT SHOOTER RELATIVE TO THE ERA THAT HE PLAYED IN! He shot 32% for his career beyond the arc. Do you know what the avg 3-pt % was in his era? 32%!!!!!! In Mikes era teams attempted less than 9 3's a game. In LBJ's era teams attempt more than 20 3's a game. LBJ shoots 34% from beyond the arc, while rest of the NBA shoots 35%. That makes LBJ a below avg 3-pt shooter. Do you understand now?

2.) You can't have 3 GOATS. LMAO. If you don't want to compare Mike & LBJ, then you also have to concede that the GOAT argument for LBJ is over. It makes more sense for Stans like yourself to argue that he belongs on NBA's Mt.Rushmore. Don't ever try to mention him & Mike in the same breath ever again, because there is an ASTRONOMICAL difference between him & Mike.

3.) The difference is Mike at the time was young and didn't have any help. The moment he got another all-star (Pippen) it was a wrap. LBJ on the other hand was the 1st to join up with a superteam in order to win a championship, and still only won 2 out of 4. You can't make an excuse for him, because he ran into a superteam that had more talent than his own because he's the one who started the trend!! And no, Boston was not the 1st superteam. KG & Ray were traded to the C's. Big difference from what LBJ did.

 

[canesthing3]

The weird thing to me is it seems MJ fans hate Lebron. Idk if it’s bc a lot of other people thing he’s the and they feel threatened so they lash out or what. But I don’t hate MJ, I just think Bron is a better all around basketball player. That’s it.

And lol at whoever said MJ went 6-0 without a dominant big. Well ****, he only had a top 25-50 player ever in Pippen, a top 5 defender/rebounder ever in Rodman and the coach. Oh and when he didn’t have Rodman, he just had Horace and BJ, who were good enough to be all stars when MJ wasn’t there. Now, you want him to have a dominant big too? As if he didn’t have enough help already.

 

[HurricaneHauk]

The weird thing to me is it seems MJ fans hate Lebron. Idk if it’s bc a lot of other people thing he’s the and they feel threatened so they lash out or what. But I don’t hate MJ, I just think Bron is a better all around basketball player. That’s it.

And lol at whoever said MJ went 6-0 without a dominant big. Well ****, he only had a top 25-50 player ever in Pippen, a top 5 defender/rebounder ever in Rodman and the coach. Oh and when he didn’t have Rodman, he just had Horace and BJ, who were good enough to be all stars when MJ wasn’t there. Now, you want him to have a dominant big too? As if he didn’t have enough help already.

MJ won 3 without Rodman

Grant was a 1 time all star....wow
BJ was an all star averaging 14 a game with 3 assists and with michael he averaged two points less and .1 assists more

Don’t get what you’re saying, everyone needs help to win, once Michael got his he only to the pistons who proceeded to win a chip both times and he lost to a magic team with prime penny, and a great Shaq

Lebron has had so much help since he left Cleveland only to falter against Dirk and a bunch of old scrubs, got spanked by the Spurs, and then spangled by the warriors

Everyone wants to clown MJ for losing the playoffs
Before Scottie came along but his teams were complete trash, their best player was freaking Charles Oakley, nothing but a decent role player

 

[Trafficante]

The weird thing to me is it seems MJ fans hate Lebron. Idk if it’s bc a lot of other people thing he’s the and they feel threatened so they lash out or what. But I don’t hate MJ, I just think Bron is a better all around basketball player. That’s it.

And lol at whoever said MJ went 6-0 without a dominant big. Well ****, he only had a top 25-50 player ever in Pippen, a top 5 defender/rebounder ever in Rodman and the coach. Oh and when he didn’t have Rodman, he just had Horace and BJ, who were good enough to be all stars when MJ wasn’t there. Now, you want him to have a dominant big too? As if he didn’t have enough help already.

LBJ is a worse shooter, worse defender, worse free throw shooter, & worse scorer, but yet Lebronites think just because he has marginally better rebound & assist numbers he's a better all-around player?? LMAO. Do you think the position he plays could have something to do with that?

 

[canesthing3]

LBJ is a worse shooter, worse defender, worse free throw shooter, & worse scorer, but yet Lebronites think just because he has marginally better rebound & assist numbers he's a better all-around player?? LMAO. Do you think the position he plays could have something to do with that?

What are you basing him being a worse shooter on exactly? Lebron has wayyyy more 3s and shoots a higher percentage overall and from 3(on much higher volume) but nice try. Is a better passer and rebounder period. It’s easy to be a better defender when you never have to guard the other teams #1 option, which Pippen always did. Or did you forget that?

I’ll give you FT though lol congrats.

 

[305to954]

The weird thing to me is it seems MJ fans hate Lebron. Idk if it’s bc a lot of other people thing he’s the and they feel threatened so they lash out or what. But I don’t hate MJ, I just think Bron is a better all around basketball player. That’s it.

And lol at whoever said MJ went 6-0 without a dominant big. Well ****, he only had a top 25-50 player ever in Pippen, a top 5 defender/rebounder ever in Rodman and the coach. Oh and when he didn’t have Rodman, he just had Horace and BJ, who were good enough to be all stars when MJ wasn’t there. Now, you want him to have a dominant big too? As if he didn’t have enough help already.

I’m telling u bruh..it’s weird asf..the Last dance was about the 98 bulls told through mikes eyes..and then , led by skip bayless it became about Lebron..now someone telling me I can’t hold 3 of the most iconic players to ever play and impact the game as my top 3 lmao

 

[305to954]

LBJ is a worse shooter, worse defender, worse free throw shooter, & worse scorer, but yet Lebronites think just because he has marginally better rebound & assist numbers he's a better all-around player?? LMAO. Do you think the position he plays could have something to do with that?

MJ was a better mid range scorer, on ball defender and Knockdown FT shooter

 

[305to954]

1.) I don't understand why this is so difficult, but wow you are really struggling with this. For the 100th time, MJ WAS AN AVG 3-PT SHOOTER RELATIVE TO THE ERA THAT HE PLAYED IN! He shot 32% for his career beyond the arc. Do you know what the avg 3-pt % was in his era? 32%!!!!!! In Mikes era teams attempted less than 9 3's a game. In LBJ's era teams attempt more than 20 3's a game. LBJ shoots 34% from beyond the arc, while rest of the NBA shoots 35%. That makes LBJ a below avg 3-pt shooter. Do you understand now?

2.) You can't have 3 GOATS. LMAO. If you don't want to compare Mike & LBJ, then you also have to concede that the GOAT argument for LBJ is over. It makes more sense for Stans like yourself to argue that he belongs on NBA's Mt.Rushmore. Don't ever try to mention him & Mike in the same breath ever again, because there is an ASTRONOMICAL difference between him & Mike.

3.) The difference is Mike at the time was young and didn't have any help. The moment he got another all-star (Pippen) it was a wrap. LBJ on the other hand was the 1st to join up with a superteam in order to win a championship, and still only won 2 out of 4. You can't make an excuse for him, because he ran into a superteam that had more talent than his own because he's the one who started the trend!! And no, Boston was not the 1st superteam. KG & Ray were traded to the C's. Big difference from what LBJ did.

Like I said..relative to his stature Lebron is a above average 3pt shooter..the league average is full of guys who only jobs are to take open 3s..not all 3pth shots are created the same. For example the look that Marc gasol gets from 3 isn’t the same as Lebron or other primary options for obvious reason..and yes bruh I can have 3 GOATS, you know why, cause it my opinion..Kareem has 6 rings just like mike with 6 mvps..so why can’t he be on the same level as mike? Lebron has 3 Along with 3 mvps and Has been to the finals 9 times along with his other body of work so why can’t I justify having in my top 3??..it’s okay man in 25 years it’s gonna be another young bull for u to try and tear down too

 

[canesthing3]

MJ was a better mid range scorer, on ball defender and Knockdown FT shooter

I’ll give him a very slight edge in the midrange but Bron midrange game is nasty too. Just turn on at Toronto in the playoffs a couple years ago. Definitely a better FT shooter. I’m not willing to concede defender though. As I said Scottie always took the best wing so who tf was MJ guarding. There wasn’t really an over abundance of elite 2 guards back then anyway. While Bron had/has to deal elite SF/SG throughout his career and guard them while MJ just didn’t. So if there was a great player on the wing, Pip checked him. Leaving MJ to guard the Jeff Hornacek’s of the world.

But regardless, I got MJ as the 2nd greatest basketball player ever. That’s not an insult.