OT: The Last Dance

craval85

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What are you basing him being a worse shooter on exactly? Lebron has wayyyy more 3s and shoots a higher percentage overall and from 3(on much higher volume) but nice try. Is a better passer and rebounder period. It’s easy to be a better defender when you never have to guard the other teams #1 option, which Pippen always did. Or did you forget that?

I’ll give you FT though lol congrats.
You think because LBJ has made more 3's than Mike playing in an era that heavily prioritizes the 3 makes him a better shooter? LMAO. As I said numerous times before in this thread LBJ is a below avg 3-pt shooter relative to the era that he plays in. Mike was an avg 3-pt shooter relative to his era, where he only attempted 1.7 3's a game. Let me ask you though since you know so much about LBJ what does he shoot outside of 3ft from the basket but inside the arc? Then compare that % to what Mike shot, and then you'll quickly realize who was the better shooter. Shooting doesn't just mean 3-pt shooting, or shooting inside of 3-ft from the basket. You also have to look at FT shooting & mid range shooting too. The majority of LBJ's shots are inside of 3-ft from the basket which heavily skews his shooting %. Thats significant because he's playing in an era that's as soft as Charmin, despite being 6.8', 260. And no, I didn't forget that Pippen was a great defender. But did you forget that Jordan won DPOY, & was a 9-time 1st team all-defensive team selection, even at age 35? When was LBJ's last all defensive team selection? But let me guess his versatility on Defense still makes him a better defender than Mike right? LMAO
 

canesthing3

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You think because LBJ has made more 3's than Mike playing in an era that heavily prioritizes the 3 makes him a better shooter? LMAO. As I said numerous times before in this thread LBJ is a below avg 3-pt shooter relative to the era that he plays in. Mike was an avg 3-pt shooter relative to his era, where he only attempted 1.7 3's a game. Let me ask you though since you know so much about LBJ what does he shoot outside of 3ft from the basket but inside the arc? Then compare that % to what Mike shot, and then you'll quickly realize who was the better shooter. Shooting doesn't just mean 3-pt shooting, or shooting inside of 3-ft from the basket. You also have to look at FT shooting & mid range shooting too. The majority of LBJ's shots are inside of 3-ft from the basket which heavily skews his shooting %. Thats significant because he's playing in an era that's as soft as Charmin, despite being 6.8', 260. And no, I didn't forget that Pippen was a great defender. But did you forget that Jordan won DPOY, & was a 9-time 1st team all-defensive team selection, even at age 35? When was LBJ's last all defensive team selection? But let me guess his versatility on Defense still makes him a better defender than Mike right? LMAO
lol that’s the best you could come up with to dispute actual statistics? The fact that you said the majority of Lebrons buckets are within 3 ft tells me you don’t even watch games. Or haven’t in MANY years. By almost all metrics Bron is a better shooter than MJ but try to spin that however you want. Lol at Lebron shoots a higher percentage on much higher volume but MJ is a better 3 point shooter bc they didn’t shoot as many 3s then. Uh sure thing boss.

Bron is a better shooter, passer, rebounder, has had to defend much better players, is bigger, stronger and at minimum, the same caliber of athlete. Lol But hey, tell yourself whatever you need to prop up MJ

I know what MJ’s accolades are but that doesn’t change what I said. It’s easier to achieve those defensive accolades when you aren’t guarding the other teams number 1 option. Why is that hard to understand?
 

305to954

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I’ll give him a very slight edge in the midrange but Bron midrange game is nasty too. Just turn on at Toronto in the playoffs a couple years ago. Definitely a better FT shooter. I’m not willing to concede defender though. As I said Scottie always took the best wing so who tf was MJ guarding. There wasn’t really an over abundance of elite 2 guards back then anyway. While Bron had/has to deal elite SF/SG throughout his career and guard them while MJ just didn’t. So if there was a great player on the wing, Pip checked him. Leaving MJ to guard the Jeff Hornacek’s of the world.

But regardless, I got MJ as the 2nd greatest basketball player ever. That’s not an insult.
On defense MJ brought it more consistently than bron..bron is the more versatile one on that end..you right Pipp was a better overall defender BUT when came to on ball D MJ was on pipp level. pipp could handle bigger players tho...as far as midrange i give that Mike because that WAS MJ..What lebron did to TOR tho😂😂😂..bruh go look at those highlights and just focus on the TOR bench and their reactions especially Jonas Val lol. That display and game 6 in Boston Lebron really got it going from the in between area
 

305to954

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All this talk about defensI’ve awards lebron definitely missing one from his time in Miami..Noah got one and Gasol..both years lebron shouldbe got those awards in most ppl opinions
 

craval85

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lol that’s the best you could come up with to dispute actual statistics? The fact that you said the majority of Lebrons buckets are within 3 ft tells me you don’t even watch games. Or haven’t in MANY years. By almost all metrics Bron is a better shooter than MJ but try to spin that however you want. Lol at Lebron shoots a higher percentage on much higher volume but MJ is a better 3 point shooter bc they didn’t shoot as many 3s then. Uh sure thing boss.

Bron is a better shooter, passer, rebounder, has had to defend much better players, is bigger, stronger and at minimum, the same caliber of athlete. Lol But hey, tell yourself whatever you need to prop up MJ

I know what MJ’s accolades are but that doesn’t change what I said. It’s easier to achieve those defensive accolades when you aren’t guarding the other teams number 1 option. Why is that hard to understand?
If you actually did some research you would learn that every single yr in LBJ's career the MAJORITY of his shots are under 3ft from the basket. Meaning layups, putbacks, and dunks, which is greatly aided by the era in which he plays in. But what actual statistics are you talking about because outside of 3ft from the basket Lebron shoots an atrocious 36% from the field. While even at age 40 and a shell of his former self, Mike still shot 42% outside of 3ft. Does it look like those statistics show LBJ is a better shooter than Mike to you? You can't just look at LBJ's field goal % and think because it's marginally better than Mike's that he's a better shooter. That's a very narrow way of looking at things. If field goal % was everything than Tyson Chandler or Deandre Jordan would also be considered better shooters than LBJ. And no, all of the metrics don't say that Lebron is a better player than Mike. Maybe if you're a moron you would believe that. Mike surpasses him in P.E.R, Win share per 48, Box plus/minus, & VORP avg. Those are the only advanced analytics that matter when judging the performance of a player. I know you're a delusional blind witness but just because LBJ's 3-pt % is 2 pts higher than Mike's playing in an era that heavily relies on the 3 doesn't make him a better shooter than Mike. It's beyond retarded to think an avg 3-pt shooter from a different era would suddenly become below avg or poor playing in today's NBA.

Now let me refute your worthless claims about LBJ being a better defender than Mike. Only a low IQ individual who's a blind witness would ever try to argue that LBJ is a better defender than Mike. LBJ hasn't played Defense since 2014, and today is more or less a defensive liability. MJ on the other hand was a consistently elite defender throughout his career becoming the only guard in history to rank top 5 in both steals and blocks. When you look at the next level defensive stats the comparison gets even more lopsided. MJ led his position in defensive win shares 10 times in his career, while LBJ only accomplished that feat 4 times. Furthermore 5 of the last 7 seasons he wasn't even in the top 10 at his position in defensive win shares. But let me guess thats because he guards the opposing team's #1 option night in & night out right?? FOH

So to recap. Mike is a better shooter, scorer, defender, ft shooter, & clutch performer. The only thing LBJ has over Mike is longevity. That is it. Thanks for playing though, & try again
 
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305to954

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If you actually did some research you would learn that every single yr in LBJ's career the MAJORITY of his shots are under 3ft from the basket. Meaning layups, putbacks, and dunks, which is greatly aided by the era in which he plays in. But what actual statistics are you talking about because outside of 3ft from the basket Lebron shoots an atrocious 36% from the field. While even at age 40 and a shell of his former self, Mike still shot 42% outside of 3ft. Does that look like LBJ is a better shooter than Mike to you? You can't just look at LBJ's field goal % and think because it's marginally better than Mike's that he's a better shooter. That's a very small minded way of looking at things. If field goal % was everything than Tyson Chandler or Deandre Jordan would also be considered better shooters than LBJ. And no, all of the metrics don't say that Lebron is a better player than Mike. Maybe if you're a moron you would believe that. Mike surpasses him in P.E.R, Win share per 48, Box plus/minus, & VORP avg. Those are the only advanced analytics that matter when judging the performance of a player. I know you're a delusional blind witness but just because LBJ's 3-pt % is 2 pts higher than Mike's playing in an era that heavily relies on the 3 doesn't make him a better shooter than Mike. It's beyond retarded to think an avg 3-pt shooter from a different era would suddenly become below avg or poor playing in today's NBA.

Now let me refute your worthless claims about LBJ being a better defender than Mike. Only a low IQ individual who's a blind witness would ever try to argue that LBJ is a better defender than Mike. LBJ hasn't played Defense since 2014, and today is more or less a defensive liability. MJ on the other hand was a consistently elite defender throughout his career becoming the only guard in history to rank top 5 in both steals and blocks. When you look at the next level defensive stats the comparison gets even more lopsided. MJ led his position in defensive win shares 10 times in his career, while LBJ only accomplished that feat 4 times. Furthermore 5 of the last 7 seasons he wasn't even in the top at his position in defensive win shares. But let me guess that because he guards the opposing team's #1 option night in & night out right?? FOH

So to recap. Mike is a better shooter, scorer, defender, ft shooter, & clutch performer. The only thing LBJ has over Mike is longevity. That is it. Thanks for playing though, & try again
You do realize 36 percent from 3 isn’t atrocious..or did u run out of words lol
 

craval85

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You do realize 36 percent from 3 isn’t atrocious..or did u run out of words lol
My gosh you struggle with reading comprehension. I didn't say Lebron shot 36% from 3. I said he shot 36% OUTSIDE OF 3-FT FROM THE BASKET. Which underscores my pt of him being an extremely poor shooter. Mike even at age 40 still shot 42% outside of 3-ft from the basket.
 

TheOriginalCane

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Noooo that’s not the point i was making. Most of those u named were great catch n shoot guys n any era..my point was in terms of a great scorer who would be a defenses focal point to contain in MJ. When ppl say Mj would ave 50 in today’s game they usually reference floor space, pace, prevalence of 3pt shooting aand hand checking (I’m sure many don’t understand what hand checking was but I digress) as to why.

my point is MJ was never a great 3pt shooter in his era when it wasn’t prevalent and a lot of those shot really were t all that contested because most defenses where geared to stop paint drives. Today that’s not the case especially for great scorers. Ppl like to say “well look at harden and the numbers he gets with his 3s” but majority of James 3s are heavily contested or of the step back varieties..MJ is too efficient of a player to fall in love with that game imo..if u put MJ in today’s game it would mirror that of KD in terms of where he’d be on the court. He’d be a wing off the ball, deadly in the midrange, deadly getting to the basket, deadly in fast break situations..he’d probably take the occasional open 3 but if he’s closed out on hard he most like gonna put it on the floor in favor of taking a contested 3..I don’t see Mj becoming this high volume 3point Shooter at all

Again, you lost me with "MJ was never a great 3 pt shooter in his era". First, he played on teams with Craig Hodges, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, and John Paxson. It simply wasn't MJ's job to shoot 3s. MJ shot .332 from 3-point range for his career with the Bulls. That is pretty damn good for a guy who is NOT the 3-point specialist on the team.

Ultimately, I'll pull together what others have said and synthesize it into something you can understand. Jordan had superior footwork TO EVERYONE. He bulked up over his career and could certainly handle hand-checking and other defensive tactics in any era. Jordan also had a superior sense of game-flow, he would shoot a 3 when it was right to do so. And there has been a substantial decline in the size/strength/defensive ability of centers and power forwards. And, sure, while those positions might be "more mobile" than they were 20 years ago, there still isn't a center or PF ever born who could guard Jordan consistently or effectively.

Therefore, the way that Jordan could average between 40 to 50 points per game in today's game is simply by taking whatever the defensive scheme will allow him. If that means taking more 3s, he would do that. And certainly with the spacing of today's game, Jordan would have more room than ever to navigate to the rim. His overall FG percentage would increase, and he'd hit more 3s. And without the occasional need to feed the ball into the post, Jordan would benefit from shorter possession time leading to more shot opportunities.

Jordan averaged 31.5 PPG in his time with Chicago. If he hits 2 more treys per game, 5 more layups/jumpers per game, and 3 more FTs per game, he averages 50 per game. I think he could get the 3s on volume, the layups/jumpers on volume and efficiency, and the FTs on continuing to drive to the hoop.

But it's a tough argument to make, in any event, because Jordan played with a lot of other guys who could score at will.
 

305to954

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Again, you lost me with "MJ was never a great 3 pt shooter in his era". First, he played on teams with Craig Hodges, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, and John Paxson. It simply wasn't MJ's job to shoot 3s. MJ shot .332 from 3-point range for his career with the Bulls. That is pretty damn good for a guy who is NOT the 3-point specialist on the team.

Ultimately, I'll pull together what others have said and synthesize it into something you can understand. Jordan had superior footwork TO EVERYONE. He bulked up over his career and could certainly handle hand-checking and other defensive tactics in any era. Jordan also had a superior sense of game-flow, he would shoot a 3 when it was right to do so. And there has been a substantial decline in the size/strength/defensive ability of centers and power forwards. And, sure, while those positions might be "more mobile" than they were 20 years ago, there still isn't a center or PF ever born who could guard Jordan consistently or effectively.

Therefore, the way that Jordan could average between 40 to 50 points per game in today's game is simply by taking whatever the defensive scheme will allow him. If that means taking more 3s, he would do that. And certainly with the spacing of today's game, Jordan would have more room than ever to navigate to the rim. His overall FG percentage would increase, and he'd hit more 3s. And without the occasional need to feed the ball into the post, Jordan would benefit from shorter possession time leading to more shot opportunities.

Jordan averaged 31.5 PPG in his time with Chicago. If he hits 2 more treys per game, 5 more layups/jumpers per game, and 3 more FTs per game, he averages 50 per game. I think he could get the 3s on volume, the layups/jumpers on volume and efficiency, and the FTs on continuing to drive to the hoop.

But it's a tough argument to make, in any event, because Jordan played with a lot of other guys who could score at will.
so to sum it up..you think MJ is plus 20 as a scorer on a nightly basis in today’s era and 20 points better than KD🤷🏾‍♂️...MJ was not a great 3pt shooter when he played, so why are y’all assuming he’d turn into a great volume 3pt shooter..

We just gonna make a MJ a efficient volume contested 3pt Shooter in todays game. Your not gonna account for teams adjusting their defenses to stop a guy going out to get 50 on a nightly basis. As though teams won’t trap, zone, and blitz MJ, you know, the things they do to the great scorers in today’s game..but right that won’t effect. MJ...we not gonna account for the obvious fact that the more 3s Jordan takes, the less chances he gets in the midrange and attacking the basketball..but not for Jordan he get bonus shots and possessions lol...

and lastly the most outrageous part, Jordan will take 30 plus FGA (not including his time at the line) Of course shoot at least 65% from the field and those amount of shots won’t wear him down over the course of 82...okay
 

Colombie

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Looks like this has gotten into a Jordan vs. LeBron debate.

My 2 cents:


LeBron slightly over Jordan.

He is a Freak of Nature who is bigger and stronger, can pretty much guard or play any of the 5 positions (if need be), a little better passer and took Cleveland to a Championship.


Let me emphasize that last part again....
... He put CLEVELAND on his Back and Won a Championship with that Crappy city sports history and stigma and did it against the greatest regular season team of all time with a bunch of scrubs, an above average big man in Love and a very good point guard Irving who got hot at the right time.


Say what you want about Jordan but he had a top 50 player of all time by his side for all 6 Championships and very good PF rebounding role players. Grant was very good those first 3. Rodman was one of the best pure rebounders/hustlers and defensive players of all time.
And let me not get started on the Coaching situations and comparisons.

Phil is one of the best. Tyronn Lou? Getoutta here.
LeBron was/is basically a player/coach and GM.




As Great as Jordan was LeBron rested his case when he won it for that Ohio pariah of a city.

Heck, even the year before when it was just him and a Bunch of scrubs taking the Warriors to Six I was almost to the point of saying he was the best.
The next year sealed it for me.
 
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305to954

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My gosh you struggle with reading comprehension. I didn't say Lebron shot 36% from 3. I said he shot 36% OUTSIDE OF 3-FT FROM THE BASKET. Which underscores my pt of him being an extremely poor shooter. Mike even at age 40 still shot 42% outside of 3-ft from the basket.
Fair enough. Ive already conceded MJ was a better mid range shooter. Most ppl know this. Lebron does not operate from the midrange the same as MJ. But still as a perimeter based player he get to the rim when he wants and is the most effective finisher (efficiency wise ) We’ve seen. And still shoots 50% from the field. So it really doesn’t effect his impact. But chalk the midrange game to MJ
 

305to954

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Looks like this has gotten into a Jordan vs. LeBron debate.

My 2 cents:


LeBron slightly over Jordan.

He is a Freak of Nature who is bigger and stronger, can pretty much guard or play any of the 5 positions (if need be), a little better passer and took Cleveland to a Championship.


Let me emphasize that last part again....
... He put CLEVELAND on his Back and Won a Championship with that Crappy city sports history and stigma and did it against the greatest regular season team of all time with a bunch of scrubs, an above average big man in Love and a very good point guard Irving who got hot at the right time.


Say what you want about Jordan but he had a top 50 player of all time by his side for all 6 Championships and very good PF rebounding role players. Grant was very good those first 3. Rodman was one of the best pure rebounders/hustlers and defensive players of all time.
And let me not get started on the Coaching situations and comparisons.

Phil is one of the best. Tyronn Lou? Getoutta here.
LeBron was/is basically a player/coach and GM.




As Great as Jordan was LeBron rested his case when he won it for the Ohio pariah of a city.

Heck even the year before when it was just him and a Bunch of scrubs taking the Warriors to Six I was almost to the point of saying he was the best.
The next year sealed it for me.
Pippen is top 25** put some Spect on that mans name
 

305to954

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Possible.

Strengthen's my argument more if he is top 25.
(He is not top 25 in my book but that is for another thread).
Ppl forget Scottie finished 3rd in mvp without MJ and won 55 games. His Length, athleticism, scoring and passing ability. Then his D. He didn’t get the chip w/o MJ but honestly the bulls got hosed by the Refs in the NYK series. Fr man go watch Pipps Highlights..when pippen left Chicago he had back issues that slowed him in his mid 30s
 

Colombie

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Ppl forget Scottie finished 3rd in mvp without MJ and won 55 games. His Length, athleticism, scoring and passing ability. Then his D. He didn’t get the chip w/o MJ but honestly the bulls got hosed by the Refs in the NYK series. Fr man go watch Pipps Highlights..when pippen left Chicago he had back issues that slowed him in his mid 30s
I don't have to see highlights.

I was here in Chicago starting in 1994.
Top 50 for sure. Not sure about 25 but that is just my opinion.
 
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Looks like this has gotten into a Jordan vs. LeBron debate.

My 2 cents:


LeBron slightly over Jordan.

He is a Freak of Nature who is bigger and stronger, can pretty much guard or play any of the 5 positions (if need be), a little better passer and took Cleveland to a Championship.


Let me emphasize that last part again....
... He put CLEVELAND on his Back and Won a Championship with that Crappy city sports history and stigma and did it against the greatest regular season team of all time with a bunch of scrubs, an above average big man in Love and a very good point guard Irving who got hot at the right time.


Say what you want about Jordan but he had a top 50 player of all time by his side for all 6 Championships and very good PF rebounding role players. Grant was very good those first 3. Rodman was one of the best pure rebounders/hustlers and defensive players of all time.
And let me not get started on the Coaching situations and comparisons.

Phil is one of the best. Tyronn Lou? Getoutta here.
LeBron was/is basically a player/coach and GM.




As Great as Jordan was LeBron rested his case when he won it for that Ohio pariah of a city.

Heck, even the year before when it was just him and a Bunch of scrubs taking the Warriors to Six I was almost to the point of saying he was the best.
The next year sealed it for me.
Why are we acting like Kevin love and Kyrie Irving are bums? These guys were Top 10 at their positions (arguably Top 5) when they won.

And we gonna act like Lebron wasn't playing with a Top 50 player all time in Wade? A top all time 3 point sniper with Ray Allen? A top PF in Bosh?

I can acknowledge that Jordan had a better supporting cast like you mentioned, but we gotta stop with this Lebron never had a supporting cast narrative. He's just not the killer that Mike was. That :42 second sequence to put the Jazz away? Lebron can't do that. That series goes to 7 games with him. Mike said **** all that, this ends tonight.

It's crazy. All the people who have seen Bill Russell, Wilt, Jerry West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Mike, Kobe, Shaq, and Lebron -- all say Mike is the best they've ever seen. Most of those greats except for Lebron himself (understandably) will tell you that Mike is the best to ever do it.

Well, actually Mike won't tell you that either (but we all know he was just being humble).



When you're the King, you don't have to tell everybody. It's already understood.
 
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Colombie

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Why are we acting like Kevin love and Kyrie Irving are bums? These guys were Top 10 at their positions (arguably Top 5) when they won.

And we gonna act like Lebron wasn't playing with a Top 50 player all time in Wade? A top all time 3 point sniper with Ray Allen? A top PF in Bosh?

I can acknowledge that Jordan had a better supporting cast like you mentioned, but we gotta stop with this Lebron never had a supporting cast narrative. He's just not the killer that Mike was. That :42 second sequence to put the Jazz away? Lebron can't do that. That series goes to 7 games with him. Mike said **** all that, this ends tonight.
I did not say they were bums. You are making that up.

They were good players but nothing like a Pippen or a Rodman or even a Grant back in the early 90s.

Plus Phil got that team together and had them do their part like a orchestra Master.

The coaching for Bron has been okay but he basically willed that team against the Warriors.

I don't even think Jordan with Love and Irving come close to doing that (with Lou as corch) BUT it is hard to compare eras.
 
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I'm not here to change minds - that won't happen, as this argument is impacted by a clear generational divide. But I will share my POV on this topic:

1. MJ is a superior defender, closer and leader than LeBron.
2. LeBron is a superior physical specimen due to his overall size.
3. LeBron and others in his class (and moving forward) have greatly benefited from hand checking rules, changes made to speed up the game, and player empowerment. That did not exist at that level during the Jordan years.
5. People that argue that MJ would not be a good 3 point shooter are ignorant on the matter and hold a myopic view of the basketball world. The man could do it all. He would have adapted. And thrived.
6. Both players sit atop Apex Mountain, but IMO Jordan is the player I pick to win it all. I will explain why now...

Jordan was open to new coaching philosophies, and LeBron is known as being uncoachable. He won't change how he plays, period. And won't listen to his coaches. Jordan followed Phil's guidance, and it worked at a rate of 6 out of a possible 6 championships. LeBron collapsed in the Finals more than once, and with more talented teams.

I'll take MJ.
 
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