OT: Fight Game Question

[CFLCane]

I'm very well aware of Gatti's chin. I watched him and Ward go to war. It's kind of embarrassing you'd even bring that fight up. It was the twilight of Gatti's career just like Pacq and De La Hoya. You can fawn over him all you want but for as many accolades as he won he's a very forgettable fighter. Great olympic boxer if you're into that sort of thing.

 

[For_The_U]

Styles make fights

Very few fighters in history have had the ability to fight and succeed against any style. Floyd is one of them. That being said, he still beat Jose Luis Castillo in a controversial UD early in his career (most think he lost) at a time when Castillo was in his prime and Floyd was still approaching his. He also struggled against Maidana, albeit now on the other side of his prime. Both opponents had power and the stamina to apply constant pressure.

If we agree that his best weight is 147 and then ask who (if any) would be able to beat him if both fighters were to meet in their primes, this would be my short list of guys that have fought post 1980:

Sugar Ray Leonard
Tommy Hearns
Vernon Forrest
Paul Williams
Jose Luis Castillo
Terence Crawford
Oscar De La Hoya

All of them have certain things in common...size, an ability to throw punches in combinations and consistently for 12 rounds, and power. I did not list Maidana because while I give him a ton of credit (he continually threw overhand rights that would make Butterbean blush) and gave everything he had. But Floyd was past his prime-if both fought in their prime I think Floyd has the legs to stay out of harm's way and make it a boring victory.

Of the fighters listed, I think all pose legitimate threats and each bring a different strength to the table that would force Floyd to adapt:

Sugar Ray: Insane speed
Hearns: Power w/length
Forrest: Length + ability to attack/counter with power
Williams: Ridiculous length + limitless stamina (100+ punches per round for 12 easily) AND a southpaw
Castillo: 12 round power
Crawford: Jack of all trades, power, stamina
Oscar: Size + world class jab

Floyd vs. SRL
-This would have controversial decision written all over it. Both guys are so smart that they would be playing high speed chess for 12 rounds. Trying to set traps for the other, etc. It would probably have some exciting moments but the average fan would find it boring.

Floyd vs. Hearns
-Floyd would have his hands full for the first 5-6 rounds. If Shane Mosley could catch him twice at almost 40 years old, a prime Hearns would have a very good chance to test Floyd's chin. Ultimately I think he would take a UD or MD vs Hearns

Floyd vs. Forrest
-This would be interesting for sure. For as bad as Vernon looked (and completely lost) vs Mayorga...go back to the first thing I said "styles make fights". Both guys are world class boxers, so I dont see Vernon getting confused in this, and I think he would have the length and smarts to make it interesting. I'd lean Floyd but as with SRL this one might end up in controversy.

Floyd vs. Williams
-You can all say I am crazy. This fight would be fun as **** to watch because Paul Williams would give Floyd problems with his length and volume of punches, causing him to fall into an early hole. We would finally get to see him have to dig deep and come forward, either looking for the KO or at minimum looking to put Paul on the canvas to try and make up the gap. Unless he catches him he loses a UD. No shot he would have EVER taken this fight. And I don't consider Floyd to be a dodger or cherry picker at all. He fought basically everyone (except Manny) and was no more or less smart about his matchmaking than any other champion. Very few fighters go against conventional wisdom and are willing to fight anyone, anywhere.

Floyd vs. Castillo
-If you saw the second fight between these two I think it would be closer to what happens if both are in there prime. While Castillo could give him a challenge I would have Floyd by UD, coasting in the final rounds.

Floyd vs. Crawford
-Crawford would find a way to make this fight interesting. No way he let's Floyd make it a boring fight. He has always shown an ability to adjust on the fly...and he almost looks as comfortable fighting southpaw than he does conventional at times. I think Floyd would take a UD or MD, but it would be close.

Floyd vs. Oscar
-We definitely got to see a prime Floyd when they matched up, but Oscar was clearly past his prime. In his prime, Oscar would give Floyd just as much of a challenge with his jab as he did when they actually fought. But just as he did so many times in his career, how could you not expect him to inexplicably stop throwing his jab and take his foot off the gas? If the guy that fought Vargas shows up, all bets are off. Otherwise, I'd take Floyd by UD or MD.

That was a great read.

 

[King of Allapattah]

I know there are several fight game fans on here with deep knowledge. In light of McGregor's latest tweet to Mike Tyson, got me thinking...

Question:
Could an Iron Mike style boxer beat Mayweather?


Obviously, Tyson would murder him--that sint my question.

What am asking if there were an Iron Mike in Floyd's world, would he beat him?

Thoughts??

I think a young Manny Pacquiao resembles what Tyson would've been had he been fighting at a lighter weight. Constant movement, active with punching power. I don't doubt Pacman would've given Floyd trouble had they fought in their primes.

 

[King of Allapattah]

Styles make fights

Very few fighters in history have had the ability to fight and succeed against any style. Floyd is one of them. That being said, he still beat Jose Luis Castillo in a controversial UD early in his career (most think he lost) at a time when Castillo was in his prime and Floyd was still approaching his. He also struggled against Maidana, albeit now on the other side of his prime. Both opponents had power and the stamina to apply constant pressure.

If we agree that his best weight is 147 and then ask who (if any) would be able to beat him if both fighters were to meet in their primes, this would be my short list of guys that have fought post 1980:

Sugar Ray Leonard
Tommy Hearns
Vernon Forrest
Paul Williams
Jose Luis Castillo
Terence Crawford
Oscar De La Hoya

All of them have certain things in common...size, an ability to throw punches in combinations and consistently for 12 rounds, and power. I did not list Maidana because while I give him a ton of credit (he continually threw overhand rights that would make Butterbean blush) and gave everything he had. But Floyd was past his prime-if both fought in their prime I think Floyd has the legs to stay out of harm's way and make it a boring victory.

Of the fighters listed, I think all pose legitimate threats and each bring a different strength to the table that would force Floyd to adapt:

Sugar Ray: Insane speed
Hearns: Power w/length
Forrest: Length + ability to attack/counter with power
Williams: Ridiculous length + limitless stamina (100+ punches per round for 12 easily) AND a southpaw
Castillo: 12 round power
Crawford: Jack of all trades, power, stamina
Oscar: Size + world class jab

Floyd vs. SRL
-This would have controversial decision written all over it. Both guys are so smart that they would be playing high speed chess for 12 rounds. Trying to set traps for the other, etc. It would probably have some exciting moments but the average fan would find it boring.

Floyd vs. Hearns
-Floyd would have his hands full for the first 5-6 rounds. If Shane Mosley could catch him twice at almost 40 years old, a prime Hearns would have a very good chance to test Floyd's chin. Ultimately I think he would take a UD or MD vs Hearns

Floyd vs. Forrest
-This would be interesting for sure. For as bad as Vernon looked (and completely lost) vs Mayorga...go back to the first thing I said "styles make fights". Both guys are world class boxers, so I dont see Vernon getting confused in this, and I think he would have the length and smarts to make it interesting. I'd lean Floyd but as with SRL this one might end up in controversy.

Floyd vs. Williams
-You can all say I am crazy. This fight would be fun as **** to watch because Paul Williams would give Floyd problems with his length and volume of punches, causing him to fall into an early hole. We would finally get to see him have to dig deep and come forward, either looking for the KO or at minimum looking to put Paul on the canvas to try and make up the gap. Unless he catches him he loses a UD. No shot he would have EVER taken this fight. And I don't consider Floyd to be a dodger or cherry picker at all. He fought basically everyone (except Manny) and was no more or less smart about his matchmaking than any other champion. Very few fighters go against conventional wisdom and are willing to fight anyone, anywhere.

Floyd vs. Castillo
-If you saw the second fight between these two I think it would be closer to what happens if both are in there prime. While Castillo could give him a challenge I would have Floyd by UD, coasting in the final rounds.

Floyd vs. Crawford
-Crawford would find a way to make this fight interesting. No way he let's Floyd make it a boring fight. He has always shown an ability to adjust on the fly...and he almost looks as comfortable fighting southpaw than he does conventional at times. I think Floyd would take a UD or MD, but it would be close.

Floyd vs. Oscar
-We definitely got to see a prime Floyd when they matched up, but Oscar was clearly past his prime. In his prime, Oscar would give Floyd just as much of a challenge with his jab as he did when they actually fought. But just as he did so many times in his career, how could you not expect him to inexplicably stop throwing his jab and take his foot off the gas? If the guy that fought Vargas shows up, all bets are off. Otherwise, I'd take Floyd by UD or MD.

You forgot Pernell Whitaker. Sweet Pea was at his peak as a welterweight and he'd have given Mayweather ****.

 

[King of Allapattah]

Let’s be real guy avoided guys at their top

I agree wholeheartedly. Floyd's career reminds me of Julio Cesar Chavez's. Both great fighters, no doubt. But who did they actually beat? I mean when Chavez fought people in their primes, he lost (Whitaker, Randall, etc.). What great fighter did Money fight while in their primes? May be unpopular to say, but neither one of these 2 guys is an all-time top 10 in my book. Great business man, but definitely not a GOAT

 

[King of Allapattah]

Stick to football, because you don't know schit about boxing. Every man likes to think they know the basics of fighting, so I understand why you feel the need to give your opinion, but you are flat out wrong.

You are saying 2 different things now. The amount of KOs he has, has literally nothing to do with how powerful his shots are.

His shots have power behind them and they hurt. The thing is, he is a counter puncher. He is rarely going to go on the offensive and try to KO and injured fighter. Because of this, fighters back off, as soon as he they get drilled with one of his straight rights.

You see it time and time again. Fighters come out aggressive against him, try to push him into a corner, get drilled with a shot, then they back off and try to "box" with him the remainder of the fight. One of the few fighters to not do this, was arturo Gatti, who has one of the greatest chins in boxing history, and he would have been KOd in the 7th had his trainer not thrown the towel in, in the 6th.

Saying Mayweather slap boxes, or anything like that, is moronic at best. Mayweather lands power shots, other fighters just stop pressuring him after catching a few of those, because they don't want to be KOd them self.

I do agree with you that at the lighter weight divisions, there's no question Pretty Boy Floyd packed some punching power, but as he got older and went up in weight his punching power was less effective and he became more dependent on his defense and counter-punching.

 

[OriginalGatorHater]

I do agree with you that at the lighter weight divisions, there's no question Pretty Boy Floyd packed some punching power, but as he got older and went up in weight his punching power was less effective and he became more dependent on his defense and counter-punching.

He still has quite a bit of power in his shots though. If you really analyze any of his more recent fights you will notice it. Go watch any of his fights round by round, with a remote that will allow you to pause and rewind. You will literally see how fighters game plans change after they get popped the first time.

Most of his recent fights were against people with very solid chins, each one of them comes into the fight looking to bully mayweather. They push forward when possible and a lot of them were taking big risks in the beginning of the fights. Every single one of them became much more cautious after getting popped. The last fighter to apply pressure the entire fight was Gatti and we all know how that ended up.

 

[NateDogg]

You forgot Pernell Whitaker. Sweet Pea was at his peak as a welterweight and he'd have given Mayweather ****.

i love sweet pea. one of my all time favorites. didnt forget him though. while he was a south paw, i dont think he had the power or the length to match up well.

 

[King of Allapattah]

i love sweet pea. one of my all time favorites. didnt forget him though. while he was a south paw, i dont think he had the power or the length to match up well.

Pernell may not have had the big punching power like some of the others and although it's not reflective on his KO count he could stick when he had to. If I remember correctly he knocked down some guys with body shots. That don't happen unless who got some punch. Sweet Pea also had a lot of other attributes that could've given Mayweather some trouble. As skilled and crafty as any boxer in history, quick, tactical, great defense, but mainly his great jab and being a southpaw. This wouldn't have been a one-sided affair. Sweet Pea would've been a problem for Money.

 

[Dwinstitles]

if they were he same size Floyd would make him look silly

 

[miamimarine]

The only guy to really hurt Mayweather would have been Marvin Hagler. He would either lose to him or knock him the **** out. That is Mayweathers beauty, he is so elusive, he makes it look easy. I think that is why people doubt his greatness, but Hagler had the potential to murder him.

Semper Canes!!!

 

[hurricane04]

Tyson himself admitted that all things being equal, Floyd would beat him by decision in a boxing match

Tyson reveals a fight between him and Mayweather would be no contest

Mike Tyson is adamant he would win a street fight against Floyd Mayweather in comfortable fashion as it wouldn't be a match due to his sheer strength and size.

www.google.com

 

[TerragonSix]

I would've liked to see a prime Roberto Duran or Sugar Ray Leonard; or even a prime De La Hoya face Mayweather.

Roberto wasn't shy about fighting dirty. Styles make fights, and although Mayweather was the polished boxer; it would've been interesting to see what happened.

Mayweather probably would've won by decision, but if Duran made Mayweather lose his cool and want to fight in a phone booth, who knows.

Mayweather was one to choose his opponents carefully. Fine. He played the game well and won his fights. His greatness is undisputed.

I feel similarly about Tyson. Yes, prime Tyson was scary, but in his career, he beat an old Larry Holmes, and he lost twice to Holyfield as well as to Buster Douglas.

And I'll be the first to say Don King ruined one the potentially greatest heavyweight fighters by putting yes men around him and not taking training seriously.

But, his body of work does not justify the amount of praise he gets. Who did he beat?

 

[HurricaneHauk]

I would've liked to see a prime Roberto Duran or Sugar Ray Leonard; or even a prime De La Hoya face Mayweather.

Roberto wasn't shy about fighting dirty. Styles make fights, and although Mayweather was the polished boxer; it would've been interesting to see what happened.

Mayweather probably would've won by decision, but if Duran made Mayweather lose his cool and want to fight in a phone booth, who knows.

Mayweather was one to choose his opponents carefully. Fine. He played the game well and won his fights. His greatness is undisputed.

I feel similarly about Tyson. Yes, prime Tyson was scary, but in his career, he beat an old Larry Holmes, and he lost twice to Holyfield as well as to Buster Douglas.

And I'll be the first to say Don King ruined one the potentially greatest heavyweight fighters by putting yes men around him and not taking training seriously.

But, his body of work does not justify the amount of praise he gets. Who did he beat?

Youngest heavyweight is youngest heavyweight champ

Guy wasn’t the same after Rooney got fired, turned into one trick poney

 

[NateDogg]

Youngest heavyweight is youngest heavyweight champ

Guy wasn’t the same after Rooney got fired, turned into one trick poney

post prison tyson is irrelevant-any fight he was in after his release he was a shell of himself.

Yes, in his prime he did fight during what was a weak era for heavyweights (bowe, holyfield, and lewis all hit their primes while he was in prison) but he absolutely dominated and did what he was supposed to do. The sad thing is that he really would have truly hit his prime if he had stayed with Rooney and away from King. That would have happened by the early 90's and set up some of the most commercially successful fights in boxing history.

Mike Tyson trained by Kevin Rooney beats Bowe and Lewis. Bowe was a tremendous inside fighter for a guy of his size and stature, but that would have played into Tyson's strengths. Tyson by KO.

Lewis' chin would have been his downfall if they met in the early to mid 90s. If they had met in the Late 90s with Lewis trained by Steward, I would still take Tyson (assuming he stayed with Rooney). His strengths would out-weight Lewis'. Tyson by KO.

Holyfield would have always given Tyson problems but the biggest thing lacking in Tyson post-prison was discipline, both outside the ring (training, lifestyle, diet, etc) and inside (especially inside the ring). Holyfield was known as a dirty fighter and earned that reputation by using his head, elbows, holding, pushing, and doing anything else he could to frustrate his opponents (in addition to landing powerful shots inside upstairs and downstairs).

Tyson in his prime would have been disciplined enough to not let that take him out of his plan. Still, Holyfield would give him fits because of his relentlessness, chin, and ability to trade inside with him. It would be a battle of wills. I think the fights they had post-prison would in no way resemble how the fight would have gone if both fought in their primes. But again, styles make fights and Holyfield's style would have always given Tyson problems. I would lean Tyson but could see it going either way.

Someone asked who did Tyson beat...He embarrassed Berbick for the title...Larry Holmes was past his prime but still a **** good heavyweight. Tyson absolutely destroyed him. He also destroyed Michael Spinks, and many tend to forget that several boxing scribes and many fans thought Spinks would beat Tyson. Ko'd Alex Stewart who is a fringe HOF'r. And twice beat Razor Ruddick (without Rooney) in classic fights. Ruddock is a very underrated fighter from that era.

 

[We the Boss]

Prime Sugar Rays, Leonard or Robinson, likely flatten him.

 

[Memnon]

Styles make fights

Very few fighters in history have had the ability to fight and succeed against any style. Floyd is one of them. That being said, he still beat Jose Luis Castillo in a controversial UD early in his career (most think he lost) at a time when Castillo was in his prime and Floyd was still approaching his. He also struggled against Maidana, albeit now on the other side of his prime. Both opponents had power and the stamina to apply constant pressure.

If we agree that his best weight is 147 and then ask who (if any) would be able to beat him if both fighters were to meet in their primes, this would be my short list of guys that have fought post 1980:

Sugar Ray Leonard
Tommy Hearns
Vernon Forrest
Paul Williams
Jose Luis Castillo
Terence Crawford
Oscar De La Hoya

All of them have certain things in common...size, an ability to throw punches in combinations and consistently for 12 rounds, and power. I did not list Maidana because while I give him a ton of credit (he continually threw overhand rights that would make Butterbean blush) and gave everything he had. But Floyd was past his prime-if both fought in their prime I think Floyd has the legs to stay out of harm's way and make it a boring victory.

Of the fighters listed, I think all pose legitimate threats and each bring a different strength to the table that would force Floyd to adapt:

Sugar Ray: Insane speed
Hearns: Power w/length
Forrest: Length + ability to attack/counter with power
Williams: Ridiculous length + limitless stamina (100+ punches per round for 12 easily) AND a southpaw
Castillo: 12 round power
Crawford: Jack of all trades, power, stamina
Oscar: Size + world class jab

Floyd vs. SRL
-This would have controversial decision written all over it. Both guys are so smart that they would be playing high speed chess for 12 rounds. Trying to set traps for the other, etc. It would probably have some exciting moments but the average fan would find it boring.

Floyd vs. Hearns
-Floyd would have his hands full for the first 5-6 rounds. If Shane Mosley could catch him twice at almost 40 years old, a prime Hearns would have a very good chance to test Floyd's chin. Ultimately I think he would take a UD or MD vs Hearns

Floyd vs. Forrest
-This would be interesting for sure. For as bad as Vernon looked (and completely lost) vs Mayorga...go back to the first thing I said "styles make fights". Both guys are world class boxers, so I dont see Vernon getting confused in this, and I think he would have the length and smarts to make it interesting. I'd lean Floyd but as with SRL this one might end up in controversy.

Floyd vs. Williams
-You can all say I am crazy. This fight would be fun as **** to watch because Paul Williams would give Floyd problems with his length and volume of punches, causing him to fall into an early hole. We would finally get to see him have to dig deep and come forward, either looking for the KO or at minimum looking to put Paul on the canvas to try and make up the gap. Unless he catches him he loses a UD. No shot he would have EVER taken this fight. And I don't consider Floyd to be a dodger or cherry picker at all. He fought basically everyone (except Manny) and was no more or less smart about his matchmaking than any other champion. Very few fighters go against conventional wisdom and are willing to fight anyone, anywhere.

Floyd vs. Castillo
-If you saw the second fight between these two I think it would be closer to what happens if both are in there prime. While Castillo could give him a challenge I would have Floyd by UD, coasting in the final rounds.

Floyd vs. Crawford
-Crawford would find a way to make this fight interesting. No way he let's Floyd make it a boring fight. He has always shown an ability to adjust on the fly...and he almost looks as comfortable fighting southpaw than he does conventional at times. I think Floyd would take a UD or MD, but it would be close.

Floyd vs. Oscar
-We definitely got to see a prime Floyd when they matched up, but Oscar was clearly past his prime. In his prime, Oscar would give Floyd just as much of a challenge with his jab as he did when they actually fought. But just as he did so many times in his career, how could you not expect him to inexplicably stop throwing his jab and take his foot off the gas? If the guy that fought Vargas shows up, all bets are off. Otherwise, I'd take Floyd by UD or MD.

Agree with just about everything you said, except for the outcome of the Hearns fight.

Under no circumstances could Floyd deal with Hitman Hearns, Hearns was pure machine with exceptional punching power & stamina. His length & reach advantage would slow Floyd down from evading him all night & he would pin him up against the ropes & tag him all fight long.

Floyd is a terrific Defensive fighter & has great ringwork, but he couldn't do anything with the 80's trio of Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns & Marvin Hagler. All 3 would beat the living **** out of Mayweather, their punching power is too much for Floyd.

Floyd was the perfect fighter for this era, he mastered his style & is one the greatest P4P fighters ever, but I'm sorry he couldn't fúck with the SRL, Hearns or Hagler.

 

[Memnon]

The guy who doesn't get talked about enough is Julian Jackson.

He has one of the most debasing right hands I've ever seen, his punching power was INCREDIBLE.

But the cat who gave Floyd a lot of trouble was Emanuel Augustus, with that super unorthodox style, his movement skills are out of this world. It's messed up how judges would give him losses because his style was so unorthodox that they actually thought he was being a showboat & dancing in the ring when he was really just disrupting his opponents rhythm with his style. He had to KO dudes in order to win, because if it went to the decision he would automatically lose because the judges would dock him so many points.

He was a super entertaining fighter, he just unfortunately fight in the wrong era. In today's day & age he would be one of the most popular fighters in the world due to his style.

 

[NateDogg]

The guy who doesn't get talked about enough is Julian Jackson.

He has one of the most debasing right hands I've ever seen, his punching power was INCREDIBLE.

But the cat who gave Floyd a lot of trouble was Emanuel Augustus, with that super unorthodox style, his movement skills are out of this world. It's messed up how judges would give him losses because his style was so unorthodox that they actually thought he was being a showboat & dancing in the ring when he was really just disrupting his opponents rhythm with his style. He had to KO dudes in order to win, because if it went to the decision he would automatically lose because the judges would dock him so many points.

He was a super entertaining fighter, he just unfortunately fight in the wrong era. In today's day & age he would be one of the most popular fighters in the world due to his style.

jackson had some of the best power lb for lb in history! One of my fav youtube videos is one of his with raekwon music playing.

Augustus is one of those guys that never got hooked up with the right promoter and became an “opponent”, when his talent should have gotten him better management and a better path to title shots. Another slick boxer like that (although he has had a little more success) from recent years is Luis Collazo

 

[Memnon]

jackson had some of the best power lb for lb in history! One of my fav youtube videos is one of his with raekwon music playing.

Augustus is one of those guys that never got hooked up with the right promoter and became an “opponent”, when his talent should have gotten him better management and a better path to title shots. Another slick boxer like that (although he has had a little more success) from recent years is Luis Collazo

Hawk Jackson was a baaaad bad man... Probably has the strongest pure punching power of any fighter ever.

He just wasn't a skilled pugilist, he had so much elite power he would devastate his opponents. His fight with McClellan was a gladiator match. But he was a 3 time champ at Super Welter & Middleweight & had a really good career, he was super underrated during his time.