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Myth Buster: Talent or Coaching?

Home Slice said:
The Academies aren't as strict as they used to be, and i understand the Air Force has changed A LOT since i was in. That being said, I stand by what I said because I know 1st hand. It's tough to get in academically. They do have a prep school that helps some with that, but the prep school grades don't carry over. They have military training and mandatory extracurricular requirements. 6 of the 9 weeks of summer, you are required to do military things, not football. They can't redshirt ( very rarely a medical RS will happen). They can't gain anyone in the portal. They cannot recruit many 300 LB dudes because a large percentage of the wing has to be pilot or navigator qualified. They've had some pretty good success for years and even had the nation's leading RB last season.
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Talk to me about how it compares with West Point or Annapolis. I'm talking about as a military academy.
 
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mossmadness said:
As others have pointed out, the problem isn’t a lack of development.

We have the second highest % of our 5* players get drafted.

We have the second highest % of our 4* players get drafted.

theathletic.com

3-Star U: Which schools are the best (and worst) at developing NFL Draft talent?

For three-, four- and five-star prospects, which universities had the highest percentage of players drafted since 2012?
theathletic.com theathletic.com


The problem is we don’t land enough 5* recruits, and we have too many 4* guys in that .89 to .92 ranking.

It’s better to have a recruiting class made up of like 13 kids that are 5*, and 4* with a rating closer to 5* than 3*, and fill the rest of the class out with mid to low 3*, than it is to have a class that has a higher average recruit ranking, but got there with a stable .90 quality ranking per recruit.

Elite talent is what moves the wheel.
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We develop our kids to the maximum. U know why? Because they hit their cieling here and when they go to the league they are exactly who we thought they were. If u develop jags tu did your job cause that's what they are. And in the league with NFL coaching good and bad those kids still stay the same player. Also this isn't directed at you just answering that first sentence. I always thought guys were developed into what they would always be.

People used sam shield for years as an example that we were not developing. One fkin guy one. Then our guys performed trash like they did here cause it was what it was. Shaq for example got developed here he was great. But when the talent improves and he goes to the league he's a liability in space. Is he going to play as much with bigger and faster dudes? No. Unless they have no bodies at mlb.
 
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Ricaneswag said:
We develop our kids to the maximum. U know why? Because they hit their cieling here and when they go to the league they are exactly who we thought they were. If u develop jags tu did your job cause that's what they are. And in the league with NFL coaching good and bad those kids still stay the same player. Also this isn't directed at you just answering that first sentence. I always thought guys were developed into what they would always be.

People used sam shield for years as an example that we were not developing. One fkin guy one. Then our guys performed trash like they did here cause it was what it was. Shaq for example got developed here he was great. But when the talent improves and he goes to the league he's a liability in space. Is he going to play as much with bigger and faster dudes? No. Unless they have no bodies at mlb.
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We haven't developed kids properly for many yrs....our development has been trash because of trash coaching/coaches. Shannon completely misused Shields. Shaq was never "Great" here.
 
Ricaneswag said:
We develop our kids to the maximum. U know why? Because they hit their cieling here and when they go to the league they are exactly who we thought they were. If u develop jags tu did your job cause that's what they are. And in the league with NFL coaching good and bad those kids still stay the same player. Also this isn't directed at you just answering that first sentence. I always thought guys were developed into what they would always be.

People used sam shield for years as an example that we were not developing. One fkin guy one. Then our guys performed trash like they did here cause it was what it was. Shaq for example got developed here he was great. But when the talent improves and he goes to the league he's a liability in space. Is he going to play as much with bigger and faster dudes? No. Unless they have no bodies at mlb.
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Hold on; so u really just gone change ur username like this?? I’m like who’s this new ninja on this board w/ these hella post. I might start a thread about this travesty alone. Lol.
 
Ricaneswag said:
We develop our kids to the maximum. U know why? Because they hit their cieling here and when they go to the league they are exactly who we thought they were. If u develop jags tu did your job cause that's what they are. And in the league with NFL coaching good and bad those kids still stay the same player. Also this isn't directed at you just answering that first sentence. I always thought guys were developed into what they would always be.

People used sam shield for years as an example that we were not developing. One fkin guy one. Then our guys performed trash like they did here cause it was what it was. Shaq for example got developed here he was great. But when the talent improves and he goes to the league he's a liability in space. Is he going to play as much with bigger and faster dudes? No. Unless they have no bodies at mlb.
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Over a decade ago - and this always stuck with me - an anonymous NFL scout said of Miami late in Randy Shannon’s tenure that they were the worst coached team in college football. I still remember this from Canespace. Presumably that would extend to development. That 2008 class seemed more impactful as freshmen than they did as juniors in his final season.

There have been varying reasons for Miami’s lack of success.

2006: WR recruiting failure - had three 3 WRs mid season
2007: Same as 2006, failure in Coker evaluations
2008: Starting mostly freshmen
2009: High attrition, no depth. Miami had only 72 players
2010: Poor development, poor QB depth
2011: Poor defensive scheme, poor depth (74 players)
2012: Poor defensive scheme, mostly freshmen, high attrition
2013: Poor defensive scheme, poor depth (75 players)
2014: Poor defensive scheme, freshman QB
2015: Poor defensive scheme
2016: Poor offensive scheme, attrition and poor depth (76 players)
2017: Poor offensive scheme, Lack of depth at QB, TE
2018: Poor offensive scheme, poor offensive line
2019: Poor offensive scheme, poor offensive line, QB issues
2020: Defensive recruiting misses
2021: Offensive line and linebacker recruiting failures
2022: Same as 2021, poor offensive scheme

This might be simplistic, but there seemed to be fundamental issues each year except 2017 and perhaps 2020 that rendered overall talent levels almost meaningless.
 
cf3000 said:
Talk to me about how it compares with West Point or Annapolis. I'm talking about as a military academy.
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At the end of the day, all 3 are both similar and excellent places for those that get in.
Generally speaking Air Force and Navy are a little harder academically and Army is slightly more stringent physically when it comes to the Academies, but they're all very difficult especially your first 2 years. The differences, unlike being enlisted, are minute.
 
GojiraCane said:
Over a decade ago - and this always stuck with me - an anonymous NFL scout said of Miami late in Randy Shannon’s tenure that they were the worst coached team in college football. I still remember this from Canespace. Presumably that would extend to development. That 2008 class seemed more impactful as freshmen than they did as juniors in his final season.

There have been varying reasons for Miami’s lack of success.

2006: WR recruiting failure - had three 3 WRs mid season
2007: Same as 2006, failure in Coker evaluations
2008: Starting mostly freshmen
2009: High attrition, no depth. Miami had only 72 players
2010: Poor development, poor QB depth
2011: Poor defensive scheme, poor depth (74 players)
2012: Poor defensive scheme, mostly freshmen, high attrition
2013: Poor defensive scheme, poor depth (75 players)
2014: Poor defensive scheme, freshman QB
2015: Poor defensive scheme
2016: Poor offensive scheme, attrition and poor depth (76 players)
2017: Poor offensive scheme, Lack of depth at QB, TE
2018: Poor offensive scheme, poor offensive line
2019: Poor offensive scheme, poor offensive line, QB issues
2020: Defensive recruiting misses
2021: Offensive line and linebacker recruiting failures
2022: Same as 2021, poor offensive scheme

This might be simplistic, but there seemed to be fundamental issues each year except 2017 and perhaps 2020 that rendered overall talent levels almost meaningless.
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Shannon's sidelines were a complete abomination.
 
GojiraCane said:
It’s been said that since there was no nutrition plan in place at the time, some kids were just eating once a day.

At McDonalds.
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Forget Shannon...but his staff was pure garbage. The sidelines looked like the Keystone Cops during games. As far as nutrition goes...can't use that entirely as an excuse. The nutrition plan even during Butch's days was nothing to write home about, as @Brooklyndee will attest....hence, Soldinger bringing in Pans of his wife's Lasagna..etc...
 
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NC_Canes_11 said:
Kirby is an elite defensive coach. He won with an average QB bc his defense and roster as a whole was elite. Jimbo won bc he had a generational college QB and a stacked roster. Mario had an elite QB and didn’t win big. If you wanna blame his coordinators or roster, that’s also on him.

Absolving Mario of blame, while also saying Kirby and Jimbo won in spite of them being the HC is laughable. Mario has everything to prove, while those guys have a ring. Stop with the mental gymnastics.
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Not so smart is an elite POSITION COACH who definitely develops his position. His defense as a whole, PRIMARILY at defensive line is the reason that defense carried them to two national championships. I agree the offense was subpar and with a defense that good you can get by with a subpar offense especially when u get the production you did out of ur tight ends and running backs.

ANYONE saying Mr grab em by the ***** is a GENERATIONAL talent instantly loses any credibility built up by very valid points previously. By the way, same way you bring up Kirby it's hysterical how you don't bother to give Mario the same credit when it relates to him with offensive lineman. It's clear you simply don't like Mario & that's fine. Him and Kirby are virtually the same when it relates to developing one set position at a very high level.

It's only mental gymnastics when you try throwing shade at Mario comparing the situations of Herbert and him being an elite QB to either Kirby or Dumbo's situations. Both Kirby and dumbo you acknowledge had absolutely stacked rosters and THAT is the reason they win. Well Mario had Herbert in his first two seasons at Oregon and at a time there was no portal. He followed up two corches who did nothing to build up the overall talent of the team and it simply got better and better in his time there. So his elite QB had nothing behind him to support him. Does that seem like maybe it's a relevant point? And none of that changes what I stressed.
 
SWFLHurricane said:
Forget Shannon...but his staff was pure garbage. The sidelines looked like the Keystone Cops during games. As far as nutrition goes...can't use that entirely as an excuse. The nutrition plan even during Butch's days was nothing to write home about, as @Brooklyndee will attest....hence, Soldinger bringing in Pans of his wife's Lasagna..etc...
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Lawd I miss her cooking. If it wasn't for art taking us weekly to big cheese and sarge bringing in Wifey's cooking we would've been starving. There's a reason so many students used to complain about car radios disappearing... Before I get attacked for that no I'm not justifying theft. Simply stating the obvious.
 
Rellyrell said:
No, for three reasons:

1. I didn’t give Lanning credit for the kids who he coached in 2022 that were drafted in 2023.

2. I believe the poster was asking about blue chip kids Mario recruited & those analytics

3. Ironically, when I was about to include kids Mario inherited that were drafted, none were blue chips.

Point 3 is interesting b/c it’s the 3 stars that’s actually faired pretty well under his leadership.
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The difference would be lanning wasn't on staff at Oregon previously. While Mario was and in fact ran the recruiting dept there. That's the thing with Mario & Maribel & it's the reason kids like cooper,kinsler and tinalau we should have so much hope for. The upside we see in them is because we know what it takes to bring that out of a kid who's hungry. The underrated kids get developed under them. It's why I laugh at the people questioning he as a coach having the ability to develop talent. He's literally proven that's what he does over and over.
 
Rellyrell said:
Hold on; so u really just gone change ur username like this?? I’m like who’s this new ninja on this board w/ these hella post. I might start a thread about this travesty alone. Lol.
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I had to bruh that's my tag on everything. I got ni99as calling me D. I never been called d my whole life lol. It's either macho or jay that's it. Or swag people call me those three. IRL
 
SWFLHurricane said:
W

We haven't developed kids properly for many yrs....our development has been trash because of trash coaching/coaches. Shannon completely misused Shields. Shaq was never "Great" here.
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Shaq was who he was he got maxed out is what I'm saying. Good or not. He was maxed out coming in already.
 
GojiraCane said:
Over a decade ago - and this always stuck with me - an anonymous NFL scout said of Miami late in Randy Shannon’s tenure that they were the worst coached team in college football. I still remember this from Canespace. Presumably that would extend to development. That 2008 class seemed more impactful as freshmen than they did as juniors in his final season.

There have been varying reasons for Miami’s lack of success.

2006: WR recruiting failure - had three 3 WRs mid season
2007: Same as 2006, failure in Coker evaluations
2008: Starting mostly freshmen
2009: High attrition, no depth. Miami had only 72 players
2010: Poor development, poor QB depth
2011: Poor defensive scheme, poor depth (74 players)
2012: Poor defensive scheme, mostly freshmen, high attrition
2013: Poor defensive scheme, poor depth (75 players)
2014: Poor defensive scheme, freshman QB
2015: Poor defensive scheme
2016: Poor offensive scheme, attrition and poor depth (76 players)
2017: Poor offensive scheme, Lack of depth at QB, TE
2018: Poor offensive scheme, poor offensive line
2019: Poor offensive scheme, poor offensive line, QB issues
2020: Defensive recruiting misses
2021: Offensive line and linebacker recruiting failures
2022: Same as 2021, poor offensive scheme

This might be simplistic, but there seemed to be fundamental issues each year except 2017 and perhaps 2020 that rendered overall talent levels almost meaningless.
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I agree Shannon was trash at development. Thing is Miami was closer to the glory years and kids were easily convinced to come. When Saban was building he ain't target anyone from that class. That tells u all u need to know. Alot of those kids were just HS stars. Sometimes HS stars are just that HS stars. This is a different level, u have to maximize potential u have to see potential. Like Hurley Brown bossed at the recruiting table POTENTIAL. That's why we pote tial people fell in love with Dalvin Cook and hated Yearby. Dalvin was big fast and built for the NFL. That's the difference, where Yearby if he went anywhere would not be drafted. He's slow but quick and tiny. That ain't working if u can't run away from people. U won't be drafted.
 
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MC can't develop jags. That's why we sucked. I bet he can develop this OL. Because the bodies changed. Chang my mind
 
Ricaneswag said:
I agree Shannon was trash at development. Thing is Miami was closer to the glory years and kids were easily convinced to come. When Saban was building he ain't target anyone from that class. That tells u all u need to know. Alot of those kids were just HS stars. Sometimes HS stars are just that HS stars. This is a different level, u have to maximize potential u have to see potential. Like Hurley Brown bossed at the recruiting table POTENTIAL. That's why we pote tial people fell in love with Dalvin Cook and hated Yearby. Dalvin was big fast and built for the NFL. That's the difference, where Yearby if he went anywhere would not be drafted. He's slow but quick and tiny. That ain't working if u can't run away from people. U won't be drafted.
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Saban 2008/09 class should have been #1 not UMs....we had absolutely no business being ranked the #1 class at all.
 
Rellyrell said:
For the record, and u can verify this w/ both @TimeBum & @crossover22[]_[] I’ve defended Mario & tried to justify & reason upon the 2022 season to the best of my abilities, white knighting the chit out of this platform. However, what I’ve been noticing is this built in excuse in case next season is the same chit.

This “not enough talent” b.s have got to stop at a certain point. I feel in my plums that Mario can turn it around, but if I’m being frank, most of that is based upon fan-believe vs. a tangible fact.

We need to continue to stack talent to get to the mountain top, but in the ACC? Nah; we’ve had more than enough talent to win the Coastal more than once.
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Lol. Same excuse for 20 years.

Only losers make excuses for failure.
 
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