My thoughts on the class (long)

[mlw352]

Mayes junior tape and even senior tape to me shows playmaker but that's to be determined

 

[LuCane]

1. We have picked up 2 CB's in the past 2 years and they are both tweeners also. We have 3 cb's on our roster I feel comfortable with (Gunter, Howard, and Crawford), 1 with high hopes for (Burns) Hope and Dortch haven't proven that they are any more than depth or special teams players.

You don't feel comfortable with Artie Burns? Seriously? Corn Elder should have been redshirted. He only played bc we lacked depth at the position. He will be a very solid player for us. Dortch should contribute as well. I'm glad you can definitively write off two freshman who had season ending injuries... Crazy talk.

Burns didn't do anything last year except get abused on occasion. He's still a freshman so i don't consider it an issue but I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at Safety some day.

If everything was all fine and dandy at CB then we wouldn't have attempted to sign three Corners.

Please name the three bc it looked to me like we were very passive at recruiting CB's. Obviously you take a talent like JC but we said no thanks to just above everyone else. (Mayes is a tweener) As for Burns "getting abused", I disagree. At times he looked lost out there (not knowing where to be) but for the most part, he more than held his own. He could possibly end up at safety (big frame & can cover a lot of ground) but until it happens, it's speculation at best.

We had three CB's on board...Bethel, Turner and Mayes. We lost two of them.

And Burns got torched more than any CB on our roster last season. Do we have to relive the Louisville game? How 'bout Duke or Wake?

More than any CB on the roster last season? He had 3 specific plays the entire season that stand out (negatively). He was not "torched" on any of them. The one that looks like the biggest "torch" was the responsibility of Luther Robinson dropping in a Zone blitz. He's having trouble finding the ball in the air, but he's there. That's not uncommon, and I'm sure you know that.

I don't know if it's bias or hyperbole, but it's overwhelming here.

 

[L A M P]

1. We have picked up 2 CB's in the past 2 years and they are both tweeners also. We have 3 cb's on our roster I feel comfortable with (Gunter, Howard, and Crawford), 1 with high hopes for (Burns) Hope and Dortch haven't proven that they are any more than depth or special teams players.

You don't feel comfortable with Artie Burns? Seriously? Corn Elder should have been redshirted. He only played bc we lacked depth at the position. He will be a very solid player for us. Dortch should contribute as well. I'm glad you can definitively write off two freshman who had season ending injuries... Crazy talk.

Burns didn't do anything last year except get abused on occasion. He's still a freshman so i don't consider it an issue but I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at Safety some day.

If everything was all fine and dandy at CB then we wouldn't have attempted to sign three Corners.

Please name the three bc it looked to me like we were very passive at recruiting CB's. Obviously you take a talent like JC but we said no thanks to just above everyone else. (Mayes is a tweener) As for Burns "getting abused", I disagree. At times he looked lost out there (not knowing where to be) but for the most part, he more than held his own. He could possibly end up at safety (big frame & can cover a lot of ground) but until it happens, it's speculation at best.

We had three CB's on board...Bethel, Turner and Mayes. We lost two of them.

And Burns got torched more than any CB on our roster last season. Do we have to relive the Louisville game? How 'bout Duke or Wake?

We pushed both of them out.. Turner was recruited for offense. So yep, we recruited one tweener kid. Burns played as well as anyone in the Louisville game. Didn't play worse than anyone else in WF or Duke game.

 

[k9cane]

You don't feel comfortable with Artie Burns? Seriously? Corn Elder should have been redshirted. He only played bc we lacked depth at the position. He will be a very solid player for us. Dortch should contribute as well. I'm glad you can definitively write off two freshman who had season ending injuries... Crazy talk.

Burns didn't do anything last year except get abused on occasion. He's still a freshman so i don't consider it an issue but I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at Safety some day.

If everything was all fine and dandy at CB then we wouldn't have attempted to sign three Corners.

Please name the three bc it looked to me like we were very passive at recruiting CB's. Obviously you take a talent like JC but we said no thanks to just above everyone else. (Mayes is a tweener) As for Burns "getting abused", I disagree. At times he looked lost out there (not knowing where to be) but for the most part, he more than held his own. He could possibly end up at safety (big frame & can cover a lot of ground) but until it happens, it's speculation at best.

We had three CB's on board...Bethel, Turner and Mayes. We lost two of them.

And Burns got torched more than any CB on our roster last season. Do we have to relive the Louisville game? How 'bout Duke or Wake?

More than any CB on the roster last season? He had 3 specific plays the entire season that stand out (negatively). He was not "torched" on any of them. The one that looks like the biggest "torch" was the responsibility of Luther Robinson dropping in a Zone blitz. He's having trouble finding the ball in the air, but he's there. That's not uncommon, and I'm sure you know that.

I don't know if it's bias or hyperbole, but it's overwhelming here.

So Burns Bandwagon is already emptying out? Good grief

I think he has the most physical upside of any CB currently on the roster...

 

[Sacks]

We only wanted one CB. We thought we had JC till the last weekend. The only other way dowels recruitment at UM would have gone was "slow playing him" and eventually giving him a 24th hour offer when JC bailed. I'm sure that scenario would have gone over well with coach wildcats! Lol

 

[fincane]

And a stubborn devotion to size is the only way to rationalize Mayes over Dowels

Or that Mayes is likely going to play safety, which is a position where we need depth, and is a position that Dowels can't play; but, hey, don't let your teenaged wonderboy or the head coach of the team get in the way of a good BS session.

We offered Mayes as a corner. He was the only corner we signed.

I doubt you've seen Mayes play, but those of us who have know that he doesn't like to tackle. His own coach admitted it. That will be an issue when it comes to him playing safety.

If Brandon McGee can be taught to tackle by this staff then I think they can get Mayes to tackle at the CB position.

 

[freespirted305]

This here imo...Burns has every attribute you want in molding a lockdown corner and has unlimited potential. Sure last year he gave up some plays, but most of those he was right there and with more reps he will be making plays on those balls in the future.

Burns didn't do anything last year except get abused on occasion. He's still a freshman so i don't consider it an issue but I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at Safety some day.

If everything was all fine and dandy at CB then we wouldn't have attempted to sign three Corners.

Please name the three bc it looked to me like we were very passive at recruiting CB's. Obviously you take a talent like JC but we said no thanks to just above everyone else. (Mayes is a tweener) As for Burns "getting abused", I disagree. At times he looked lost out there (not knowing where to be) but for the most part, he more than held his own. He could possibly end up at safety (big frame & can cover a lot of ground) but until it happens, it's speculation at best.

We had three CB's on board...Bethel, Turner and Mayes. We lost two of them.

And Burns got torched more than any CB on our roster last season. Do we have to relive the Louisville game? How 'bout Duke or Wake?

More than any CB on the roster last season? He had 3 specific plays the entire season that stand out (negatively). He was not "torched" on any of them. The one that looks like the biggest "torch" was the responsibility of Luther Robinson dropping in a Zone blitz. He's having trouble finding the ball in the air, but he's there. That's not uncommon, and I'm sure you know that.

I don't know if it's bias or hyperbole, but it's overwhelming here.

So Burns Bandwagon is already emptying out? Good grief

I think he has the most physical upside of any CB currently on the roster...

 

[jerzeycane]

Anyone dissing "Top 10" Burns should be banned

Simple as that

No room for that type of lunacy here

 

[DiegoCane]

You don't feel comfortable with Artie Burns? Seriously? Corn Elder should have been redshirted. He only played bc we lacked depth at the position. He will be a very solid player for us. Dortch should contribute as well. I'm glad you can definitively write off two freshman who had season ending injuries... Crazy talk.

Burns didn't do anything last year except get abused on occasion. He's still a freshman so i don't consider it an issue but I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at Safety some day.

If everything was all fine and dandy at CB then we wouldn't have attempted to sign three Corners.

Please name the three bc it looked to me like we were very passive at recruiting CB's. Obviously you take a talent like JC but we said no thanks to just above everyone else. (Mayes is a tweener) As for Burns "getting abused", I disagree. At times he looked lost out there (not knowing where to be) but for the most part, he more than held his own. He could possibly end up at safety (big frame & can cover a lot of ground) but until it happens, it's speculation at best.

We had three CB's on board...Bethel, Turner and Mayes. We lost two of them.

And Burns got torched more than any CB on our roster last season. Do we have to relive the Louisville game? How 'bout Duke or Wake?

More than any CB on the roster last season? He had 3 specific plays the entire season that stand out (negatively). He was not "torched" on any of them. The one that looks like the biggest "torch" was the responsibility of Luther Robinson dropping in a Zone blitz. He's having trouble finding the ball in the air, but he's there. That's not uncommon, and I'm sure you know that.

I don't know if it's bias or hyperbole, but it's overwhelming here.

This. WildCat lost his mind.

Fwiw we dropped Turner and Bethel (according to Pete).

 

[Problem2]

lol at losing Turner.

C'mon son.

 

[hoover437]

Finally, you list several big-time prospects that left South Florida in the past. But if you'll notice, very few of the guys you listed are from the 99-01 era. That's because Butch cemented a national championship by locking down the area with a string of bonanza classes. That's what many were hoping for this year, and they didn't get it. I hope those classes are yet to come.

You look at some of the kids in those classes: Johnson, Vilma, Shockey, McGahee, Winslow, Rolle, Taylor, Wilfork, McIntosh, etc., etc., etc.

That talent level was simply elite.

This 2014 class is very good, but elite it is not (at least in my mind). Of course, future evaluation of this class will be modified due to how they are coached, on-field performance, and more.

That being said, we need to bring in elite classes if we want to contend with the big boys, particularly FSU in our own conference.

Do you realize how many 5* recruits you just named its elite after the fact you have no idea what this class will be .... Of all the guys you named i believe 1 was a 5* recuit and that was dre

That's funny, but like half those names were not elite coming into school! also, another important thing, that I believe folks don't talk about is the program has to weed out the country club mentality, Butch did not have to deal with that. Yes he had probation, but Edge and the others knew they were coming to work!

 

[mlw352]

Man we don't have any proof of development that's a big problem and to say they developed brandon Mcgee was such a big project he was a top 10 corner and top 100 player I mean come on he took a little longer to develop but every athlete isn't eric berry who can come in and play right away

 

[sebastian91]

And a stubborn devotion to size is the only way to rationalize Mayes over Dowels

Or that Mayes is likely going to play safety, which is a position where we need depth, and is a position that Dowels can't play; but, hey, don't let your teenaged wonderboy or the head coach of the team get in the way of a good BS session.

We offered Mayes as a corner. He was the only corner we signed.

I doubt you've seen Mayes play, but those of us who have know that he doesn't like to tackle. His own coach admitted it. That will be an issue when it comes to him playing safety.

I don't know why you and Glory are being so **** pigheaded about this. Yes, I know Mayes was recruited at CB. I also know that BOTH Pete and AG have said that he is likely to play safety. AG even said that he can play both, which gives them flexibility and depth at both positions. Dowels cannot do that. I love Dowels at corner, and I've never said anything otherwise. I would've much rather had Dowels than Bethel. For whatever reason, they allowed Bethel to go and didn't replace him. Maybe they are confident that they'll load up on CBs in the 2015 class (bad move, IMO). Who the **** knows. If the staff thinks Mayes can provide depth at safety, which is badly needed, then that explains why they took him. If they can't get him to tackle, well, then it'll turn out to be a bad decision. This isn't freaking rocket science.

 

[CaneSB]

CaneSB,
Good stuff. A couple of things I wanted to touch on.

1. Quincy Wilson - We all certainly understand the "politics" that permeate South Florida football. Your analysis of his recruitment might be correct (talent evaluation) however in my opinion, the staff viewed his potential character flaws as a risk that outweighed the rewards, in the short and long run.

There seem to be a couple misconceptions about Wilson's recruitment. Some say that the staff wanted him at safety instead of corner. Others say we dropped him because of character. The truth is the staff just didn't like him as a player. And I get it-- Wilson is a flawed prospect. But what perplexes me is that the staff ignored even more flaws for Ryan Mayes and missed the opportunity to have a vocal Miami advocate on a SFE team filled with All-Americans every year. The cost-benefit analysis there does not make sense.

4. QB - again, not sure how you can characterize their recruiting at the QB position as "clumsy." They got their guy in Kaaya and it most likely that all of their tactics were guided by not losing him. Perhaps offering Treon early may have led to Kaaya's departure and it wasn't until the end that they felt Kaaya was in the bank and that Treon was ripe for taking. Further, Rosier came down to camp and they offered him very early and he committed. It seems like there QB recruiting was very calculated and the least bit "clumsy." It is fair to disagree with their evaluations but unfair to characterize their process as you did.

The staff offered Eduoard as a QB, took his commit, changed their minds and dropped him. They didn't offer Treon as a QB, realized their mistake with a month left before NSD and offered him. That strikes me as clumsy. They had two other quarterbacks committed during Kaaya's recruitment, so I don't see how refusing to offer Treon as a QB had anything to do with scaring off Kaaya.

2. Stubborn on Size - every year there a handful of kids who go elsewhere that you can make a case they should have been recruited. How come we didn't take McKenzie and Dowels when we signed Berrios? I don't think Golden has a moratorium on size but when you are not ELITE (i.e. Duke Johnson, Joe Yearby, Corn Elder), the risk increases significantly with average measurables (height and speed being the most critical) and you have to be selective.

As discussed above, we initially refused to offer Berrios and would have lost him if he wasn't such a die-hard Cane. And a stubborn devotion to size is the only way to rationalize Mayes over Dowels. Mayes isn't even physical-- his own coach called him soft. As for McKenzie, we had enough room to take him and Berrios. It's not against the rules to have two under 6' receivers. The Patriots won Super Bowls that way. When McKenzie is on SportsCenter changing games, it will reflect poorly on the staff.

6. Defensive Scheme - We signed Demetrius Jackson, Chad Thomas and Anthony Moten. 3 of the top defensive players in south Florida. Valentine was the only local defensive player (off the top of my head) that we recruited heavily that didn't sign with us. This defensive scheme is hurting recruiting mantra is BS.

Most of this class was signed up before the defense collapsed. Rival coaches started using the defensive scheme against us at the end of the year. Alabama used that pitch on Chad Thomas heavily, which is why we were sweating. Chad even said that Alabama was the better football opportunity, but Miami gave him options after football. Valentine was a very vocal critic of the scheme. Someone fed him that line, but the fact that the defense was atrocious made us vulnerable to that approach. This will hurt us even more next year.

Finally, you list several big-time prospects that left South Florida in the past. But if you'll notice, very few of the guys you listed are from the 99-01 era. That's because Butch cemented a national championship by locking down the area with a string of bonanza classes. That's what many were hoping for this year, and they didn't get it. I hope those classes are yet to come.

1. Quincy Wilson - Since you have used Ryan Mayes in numerous examples, it is clear that you are not very high on him. I have't seen his film nor will I watch it. But the debate about is not about offering Mayes instead, it is about the type of personality Golden does and doesn't want on this team. The coaching staff just flat out didn't like the kid's personality. Doesn't mean his is a bad kid. It just wasn't a fit and having an outspoken parent played a factor as well. (This is not an assumption, you can PM me if you want my sources). Further, you are drastically overestimating both Quincy and his father's influence on other players. However, if play along with your narrative, in the short term if could help with minimal long term benefits. But what about the scenario where he goes to UM and isn't happy? A CURRENT player with an outspoken father can do serious damage if they played their cards right and used the media properly to air the dirty laundry. Joe Rose, Manny Navarro, Gary Ferman would eat that **** up. The cost-benefit analysis makes PERFECT SENSE. The staff was not high on him as a player on and off the field. The upside was he committed to UM and helped recruit players...which he tried to do for Florida and failed. When you look at upside vs downside...the downside risk of bringing a potential locker room cancer onto the team at this critical point in the rebuilding process vastly outweighs his upside...unless, of course, he ends up as a top 10 pick which most will agree is highly unlikely.

2. QB - Cristobal was highly involved in Edouards recruitment. Cristobal left and they dropped Edouard. I guess that can be categorized as "changing their minds" but I don't see that as a bad thing. You keep using these demonstrative adjectives like panicked. I don't know Golden personally but I think the last adjective I would use to describe anything he does is panic. There were multiple defections around the time they offered Treon...Bethel, Powell. They moved on from Turner. Valentine was on the ropes and Cook, etc was clearly signing elsewhere. Perhaps a better explanation was there was now room for a 3rd QB who could play other skill positions if it didn't work out at QB? Treon was committed to FSU at the time but he ultimately ended up at UF. Something happened with his recruitment and perhaps the staff had a spot available and decided to make a run. Was their evaluation and strategy misguided? Perhaps. But the staffs motivations and tactics are VERY calculated. As I stated numerous times, I understand the criticisms of evaluations but feel that you are attacking the issue from the wrong angle.

3. Stubborn on Size -What do you mean by refused to offer Berrios? First, there is a significant difference between 5'11 and 5'8 in football. Our coaches have recruited and signed a ton of players in the 5'10-5'11 range, some under 5'10. Duke, Dorsett, Tracey Howard, Malcolm Lewis, Corn Elder, Antonio Crawford and now Berrios. Brandon Powell was also under 6'0. Your comment about recruiting players under 6'0 is a inflammatory. But like all other programs, most tend to look for kids 5'11 and above. Filter any recruiting database and look at the players that sign with all of the major programs. Bama, Auburn, Oklahoma, etc sign at most, one player under 5'11 per year. Also, look at the quantity of players at that height and how may are successful and you are at a less than 1% hit rate. The odds are against you. To be that small and get an offer, you have to be extremely special. Isn't the reality that most schools are hesitant to offer kids under 5'11 without a ton of a conviction or other factors/influences? Berrios came to our camp and was impressive but it wasn't until he went to the opening and his short area quickness tested off the charts. Combined with his growing relationship with Kaaya (who had leverage) and you have a solid basis for offering him. What I find most interesting is McKenzie ended up at Georgia with Sony. Fairly confident that is not a coincidence. I don't know much of anything about Dowels or McKenzie but clearly the staff did not think they were worthy of a UM scholarship and but history proves that they have no problem recruiting players of any size and shape.

4 Defensive Scheme - Last time I checked, isn't Alabama a better opportunity right now? Probably had less to do with Miami's defense scheme being bad and more to do with Alabama putting 25 1st rounders into the league over the last 5-6 years. Pretty sure they can use that pitch against almost all schools.

But let's embellish for a minute on scheme and further, player development. As stated, I have strongly dug my heels in the ground and defended Golden and the scheme. I 100% unequivocally believe our defensive problems have been due to a lack of talent. The guys that do have talent are mostly sophomores and freshman. I think the world of these players hearts and commitment but Shayon Greene, Kacy Rodgers, Luther Robinson, Jimmy Gaines, Kelvin Cain, AJ Highsmith, Tyrone Cornelius, Justin Renfrow have no business being on the field for Miami. I 100% blame Shannon and think Golden has done a good job of restocking the talent pool.

Here is the rub....How can Golden and D'Nofrio go to Temple, recruit a bunch of 2 stars and produce 2 of the best Defensive Lineman in the NFL in under 5 years - Terrance Knighton and Muhammed Wilkerson? Same coaching, same scheme. You can attack the defensive numbers at Temple all you want - which were very good. How can anyone attack a philosophy that has concrete evidence that they can develop players? They also produced a 2nd rd pick at safety and on offense - Bernard Pierce and Rod Streater (900 yards receiving in 2013). That is not a fluke. Think back to what Golden and co did with Tommy Streeter, Ben Jones, and even the players mentioned above. We went 9-4 with those JAGS. The defense was atrocious as the season went on...I believe there are many factors that contributed to this which I can elaborate on at a later date, but I believe that there will be A **** TON of people on here eating their own words in 2 years.

 

[JerzeyCane32]

CaneSB,
Good stuff. A couple of things I wanted to touch on.

1. Quincy Wilson - We all certainly understand the "politics" that permeate South Florida football. Your analysis of his recruitment might be correct (talent evaluation) however in my opinion, the staff viewed his potential character flaws as a risk that outweighed the rewards, in the short and long run.

There seem to be a couple misconceptions about Wilson's recruitment. Some say that the staff wanted him at safety instead of corner. Others say we dropped him because of character. The truth is the staff just didn't like him as a player. And I get it-- Wilson is a flawed prospect. But what perplexes me is that the staff ignored even more flaws for Ryan Mayes and missed the opportunity to have a vocal Miami advocate on a SFE team filled with All-Americans every year. The cost-benefit analysis there does not make sense.

4. QB - again, not sure how you can characterize their recruiting at the QB position as "clumsy." They got their guy in Kaaya and it most likely that all of their tactics were guided by not losing him. Perhaps offering Treon early may have led to Kaaya's departure and it wasn't until the end that they felt Kaaya was in the bank and that Treon was ripe for taking. Further, Rosier came down to camp and they offered him very early and he committed. It seems like there QB recruiting was very calculated and the least bit "clumsy." It is fair to disagree with their evaluations but unfair to characterize their process as you did.

The staff offered Eduoard as a QB, took his commit, changed their minds and dropped him. They didn't offer Treon as a QB, realized their mistake with a month left before NSD and offered him. That strikes me as clumsy. They had two other quarterbacks committed during Kaaya's recruitment, so I don't see how refusing to offer Treon as a QB had anything to do with scaring off Kaaya.

2. Stubborn on Size - every year there a handful of kids who go elsewhere that you can make a case they should have been recruited. How come we didn't take McKenzie and Dowels when we signed Berrios? I don't think Golden has a moratorium on size but when you are not ELITE (i.e. Duke Johnson, Joe Yearby, Corn Elder), the risk increases significantly with average measurables (height and speed being the most critical) and you have to be selective.

As discussed above, we initially refused to offer Berrios and would have lost him if he wasn't such a die-hard Cane. And a stubborn devotion to size is the only way to rationalize Mayes over Dowels. Mayes isn't even physical-- his own coach called him soft. As for McKenzie, we had enough room to take him and Berrios. It's not against the rules to have two under 6' receivers. The Patriots won Super Bowls that way. When McKenzie is on SportsCenter changing games, it will reflect poorly on the staff.

6. Defensive Scheme - We signed Demetrius Jackson, Chad Thomas and Anthony Moten. 3 of the top defensive players in south Florida. Valentine was the only local defensive player (off the top of my head) that we recruited heavily that didn't sign with us. This defensive scheme is hurting recruiting mantra is BS.

Most of this class was signed up before the defense collapsed. Rival coaches started using the defensive scheme against us at the end of the year. Alabama used that pitch on Chad Thomas heavily, which is why we were sweating. Chad even said that Alabama was the better football opportunity, but Miami gave him options after football. Valentine was a very vocal critic of the scheme. Someone fed him that line, but the fact that the defense was atrocious made us vulnerable to that approach. This will hurt us even more next year.

Finally, you list several big-time prospects that left South Florida in the past. But if you'll notice, very few of the guys you listed are from the 99-01 era. That's because Butch cemented a national championship by locking down the area with a string of bonanza classes. That's what many were hoping for this year, and they didn't get it. I hope those classes are yet to come.

1. Quincy Wilson - Since you have used Ryan Mayes in numerous examples, it is clear that you are not very high on him. I have't seen his film nor will I watch it. But the debate about is not about offering Mayes instead, it is about the type of personality Golden does and doesn't want on this team. The coaching staff just flat out didn't like the kid's personality. Doesn't mean his is a bad kid. It just wasn't a fit and having an outspoken parent played a factor as well. (This is not an assumption, you can PM me if you want my sources). Further, you are drastically overestimating both Quincy and his father's influence on other players. However, if play along with your narrative, in the short term if could help with minimal long term benefits. But what about the scenario where he goes to UM and isn't happy? A CURRENT player with an outspoken father can do serious damage if they played their cards right and used the media properly to air the dirty laundry. Joe Rose, Manny Navarro, Gary Ferman would eat that **** up. The cost-benefit analysis makes PERFECT SENSE. The staff was not high on him as a player on and off the field. The upside was he committed to UM and helped recruit players...which he tried to do for Florida and failed. When you look at upside vs downside...the downside risk of bringing a potential locker room cancer onto the team at this critical point in the rebuilding process vastly outweighs his upside...unless, of course, he ends up as a top 10 pick which most will agree is highly unlikely.

2. QB - Cristobal was highly involved in Edouards recruitment. Cristobal left and they dropped Edouard. I guess that can be categorized as "changing their minds" but I don't see that as a bad thing. You keep using these demonstrative adjectives like panicked. I don't know Golden personally but I think the last adjective I would use to describe anything he does is panic. There were multiple defections around the time they offered Treon...Bethel, Powell. They moved on from Turner. Valentine was on the ropes and Cook, etc was clearly signing elsewhere. Perhaps a better explanation was there was now room for a 3rd QB who could play other skill positions if it didn't work out at QB? Treon was committed to FSU at the time but he ultimately ended up at UF. Something happened with his recruitment and perhaps the staff had a spot available and decided to make a run. Was their evaluation and strategy misguided? Perhaps. But the staffs motivations and tactics are VERY calculated. As I stated numerous times, I understand the criticisms of evaluations but feel that you are attacking the issue from the wrong angle.

3. Stubborn on Size -What do you mean by refused to offer Berrios? First, there is a significant difference between 5'11 and 5'8 in football. Our coaches have recruited and signed a ton of players in the 5'10-5'11 range, some under 5'10. Duke, Dorsett, Tracey Howard, Malcolm Lewis, Corn Elder, Antonio Crawford and now Berrios. Brandon Powell was also under 6'0. Your comment about recruiting players under 6'0 is a inflammatory. But like all other programs, most tend to look for kids 5'11 and above. Filter any recruiting database and look at the players that sign with all of the major programs. Bama, Auburn, Oklahoma, etc sign at most, one player under 5'11 per year. Also, look at the quantity of players at that height and how may are successful and you are at a less than 1% hit rate. The odds are against you. To be that small and get an offer, you have to be extremely special. Isn't the reality that most schools are hesitant to offer kids under 5'11 without a ton of a conviction or other factors/influences? Berrios came to our camp and was impressive but it wasn't until he went to the opening and his short area quickness tested off the charts. Combined with his growing relationship with Kaaya (who had leverage) and you have a solid basis for offering him. What I find most interesting is McKenzie ended up at Georgia with Sony. Fairly confident that is not a coincidence. I don't know much of anything about Dowels or McKenzie but clearly the staff did not think they were worthy of a UM scholarship and but history proves that they have no problem recruiting players of any size and shape.

4 Defensive Scheme - Last time I checked, isn't Alabama a better opportunity right now? Probably had less to do with Miami's defense scheme being bad and more to do with Alabama putting 25 1st rounders into the league over the last 5-6 years. Pretty sure they can use that pitch against almost all schools.

But let's embellish for a minute on scheme and further, player development. As stated, I have strongly dug my heels in the ground and defended Golden and the scheme. I 100% unequivocally believe our defensive problems have been due to a lack of talent. The guys that do have talent are mostly sophomores and freshman. I think the world of these players hearts and commitment but Shayon Greene, Kacy Rodgers, Luther Robinson, Jimmy Gaines, Kelvin Cain, AJ Highsmith, Tyrone Cornelius, Justin Renfrow have no business being on the field for Miami. I 100% blame Shannon and think Golden has done a good job of restocking the talent pool.

Here is the rub....How can Golden and D'Nofrio go to Temple, recruit a bunch of 2 stars and produce 2 of the best Defensive Lineman in the NFL in under 5 years - Terrance Knighton and Muhammed Wilkerson? Same coaching, same scheme. You can attack the defensive numbers at Temple all you want - which were very good. How can anyone attack a philosophy that has concrete evidence that they can develop players? They also produced a 2nd rd pick at safety and on offense - Bernard Pierce and Rod Streater (900 yards receiving in 2013). That is not a fluke. Think back to what Golden and co did with Tommy Streeter, Ben Jones, and even the players mentioned above. We went 9-4 with those JAGS. The defense was atrocious as the season went on...I believe there are many factors that contributed to this which I can elaborate on at a later date, but I believe that there will be A **** TON of people on here eating their own words in 2 years.

could not of said it better sb great job

 

[DMoney]

1. Quincy Wilson - Since you have used Ryan Mayes in numerous examples, it is clear that you are not very high on him. I have't seen his film nor will I watch it.

This is the issue and the reason we keep disagreeing on this. My concern is not that we passed on Quincy Wilson. If we took John Battle instead, I wouldn't say a peep. But taking an inferior kid like Ryan Mayes reeks of "smartest man in the room" syndrome. It also shows me that we are stubbornly devoted to our camp evaluations, which have been downright dismal thus far (O'Donnell, Hoillett, Hope, Moore).

There were multiple defections around the time they offered Treon...Bethel, Powell. They moved on from Turner. Valentine was on the ropes and Cook, etc was clearly signing elsewhere. Perhaps a better explanation was there was now room for a 3rd QB who could play other skill positions if it didn't work out at QB? Treon was committed to FSU at the time but he ultimately ended up at UF. Something happened with his recruitment and perhaps the staff had a spot available and decided to make a run.

Treon had an offer for a long time and we were actively recruiting him as an athlete. I don't think space had anything to do with it.

But like all other programs, most tend to look for kids 5'11 and above. Filter any recruiting database and look at the players that sign with all of the major programs. Bama, Auburn, Oklahoma, etc sign at most, one player under 5'11 per year.

Some schools place a greater emphasis on size than others. Look at Joe Paterno and Jimmy Johnson. Florida State's back seven was relatively tiny, with 215 pound linebackers and 5-9 safeties. But it was loaded with good players.

South Florida produces the best players, but it does not produce the biggest players. James Burgess looked more like a "Cane" than anyone on the field in Orlando, and he was wearing red. Golden needs to move past where he came from and focus on where he is at. Miami is not Penn State.

I don't know much of anything about Dowels or McKenzie but clearly the staff did not think they were worthy of a UM scholarship and but history proves that they have no problem recruiting players of any size and shape.

This is another reason we keep disagreeing. I've seen these guys play, and their talent is obvious to an amateur like me. I used to blindly defer to the staff's evaluations, but a series of poor decisions and busts have increased my skepticism. McKenzie and Dowels are Miami-caliber players and time will prove that.

As stated, I have strongly dug my heels in the ground and defended Golden and the scheme. I 100% unequivocally believe our defensive problems have been due to a lack of talent. The guys that do have talent are mostly sophomores and freshman. I think the world of these players hearts and commitment but Shayon Greene, Kacy Rodgers, Luther Robinson, Jimmy Gaines, Kelvin Cain, AJ Highsmith, Tyrone Cornelius, Justin Renfrow have no business being on the field for Miami. I 100% blame Shannon and think Golden has done a good job of restocking the talent pool.

Shannon left behind a mess. Nobody disputes that. But why are his front-seven recruits still starting three years into the Golden era? The fact that D'Onofrio could not recruit and develop linebackers to displace Jimmy Gaines and Tyrone Cornelius is alarming. The Skai Moore example has been beaten to death, but it shows that there are plenty of quality linebackers who weren't scared away by sanctions. We just didn't identify them.

Further, certain decisions (i.e. turning down Dowels because he was too small) are eerily reminiscent of some of the missteps of the Shannon era.

Here is the rub....How can Golden and D'Nofrio go to Temple, recruit a bunch of 2 stars and produce 2 of the best Defensive Lineman in the NFL in under 5 years - Terrance Knighton and Muhammed Wilkerson? Same coaching, same scheme. You can attack the defensive numbers at Temple all you want - which were very good. How can anyone attack a philosophy that has concrete evidence that they can develop players? They also produced a 2nd rd pick at safety and on offense - Bernard Pierce and Rod Streater (900 yards receiving in 2013). That is not a fluke.

This is exactly the point. The question is not whether their approach works at Temple. The question is whether that same approach -- unmodified and commemorated in a 300-page book -- will work at Miami.

The Golden camp was a home run at Temple but has been a dud in terms of finding Miami-caliber players. That is the clearest indication that their evaluation principles need to be adjusted. The scheme has been discussed repeatedly by people with more technical knowledge, but the plain fact is that Louisville looked more like a Miami defense than Miami did. People clowned on Luther Campbell for saying that Louisville was more "Miami" than Al Golden's Canes. It turned out he was exactly right.

I believe this staff is diligent and smart. I have not given up on them by any means. But they need to adjust, and the first step is acknowledging what's not working.

 

[CANE1775]

Off topic a bit, but I found it interesting that golden mentioned on a couple of different occasions in his presser how everyone wanted this commit or that commit. I was saying to myself that no one forced you to take some of those reaches that you took. That was his choice.

 

[Cans4life]

FWIW there was a less than 1% chance Battle would've came here had been offered. I keep seeing people mention the kid but he wanted out of South Florida from the get go.

 

[User-4525]

FWIW there was a less than 1% chance Battle would've came here had been offered. I keep seeing people mention the kid but he wanted out of South Florida from the get go.

If we offered early he would've committed

 

[Southcane]

CaneSB,
Good stuff. A couple of things I wanted to touch on.

1. Quincy Wilson - We all certainly understand the "politics" that permeate South Florida football. Your analysis of his recruitment might be correct (talent evaluation) however in my opinion, the staff viewed his potential character flaws as a risk that outweighed the rewards, in the short and long run.

There seem to be a couple misconceptions about Wilson's recruitment. Some say that the staff wanted him at safety instead of corner. Others say we dropped him because of character. The truth is the staff just didn't like him as a player. And I get it-- Wilson is a flawed prospect. But what perplexes me is that the staff ignored even more flaws for Ryan Mayes and missed the opportunity to have a vocal Miami advocate on a SFE team filled with All-Americans every year. The cost-benefit analysis there does not make sense.

4. QB - again, not sure how you can characterize their recruiting at the QB position as "clumsy." They got their guy in Kaaya and it most likely that all of their tactics were guided by not losing him. Perhaps offering Treon early may have led to Kaaya's departure and it wasn't until the end that they felt Kaaya was in the bank and that Treon was ripe for taking. Further, Rosier came down to camp and they offered him very early and he committed. It seems like there QB recruiting was very calculated and the least bit "clumsy." It is fair to disagree with their evaluations but unfair to characterize their process as you did.

The staff offered Eduoard as a QB, took his commit, changed their minds and dropped him. They didn't offer Treon as a QB, realized their mistake with a month left before NSD and offered him. That strikes me as clumsy. They had two other quarterbacks committed during Kaaya's recruitment, so I don't see how refusing to offer Treon as a QB had anything to do with scaring off Kaaya.

2. Stubborn on Size - every year there a handful of kids who go elsewhere that you can make a case they should have been recruited. How come we didn't take McKenzie and Dowels when we signed Berrios? I don't think Golden has a moratorium on size but when you are not ELITE (i.e. Duke Johnson, Joe Yearby, Corn Elder), the risk increases significantly with average measurables (height and speed being the most critical) and you have to be selective.

As discussed above, we initially refused to offer Berrios and would have lost him if he wasn't such a die-hard Cane. And a stubborn devotion to size is the only way to rationalize Mayes over Dowels. Mayes isn't even physical-- his own coach called him soft. As for McKenzie, we had enough room to take him and Berrios. It's not against the rules to have two under 6' receivers. The Patriots won Super Bowls that way. When McKenzie is on SportsCenter changing games, it will reflect poorly on the staff.

6. Defensive Scheme - We signed Demetrius Jackson, Chad Thomas and Anthony Moten. 3 of the top defensive players in south Florida. Valentine was the only local defensive player (off the top of my head) that we recruited heavily that didn't sign with us. This defensive scheme is hurting recruiting mantra is BS.

Most of this class was signed up before the defense collapsed. Rival coaches started using the defensive scheme against us at the end of the year. Alabama used that pitch on Chad Thomas heavily, which is why we were sweating. Chad even said that Alabama was the better football opportunity, but Miami gave him options after football. Valentine was a very vocal critic of the scheme. Someone fed him that line, but the fact that the defense was atrocious made us vulnerable to that approach. This will hurt us even more next year.

Finally, you list several big-time prospects that left South Florida in the past. But if you'll notice, very few of the guys you listed are from the 99-01 era. That's because Butch cemented a national championship by locking down the area with a string of bonanza classes. That's what many were hoping for this year, and they didn't get it. I hope those classes are yet to come.

1. Quincy Wilson - Since you have used Ryan Mayes in numerous examples, it is clear that you are not very high on him. I have't seen his film nor will I watch it. But the debate about is not about offering Mayes instead, it is about the type of personality Golden does and doesn't want on this team. The coaching staff just flat out didn't like the kid's personality. Doesn't mean his is a bad kid. It just wasn't a fit and having an outspoken parent played a factor as well. (This is not an assumption, you can PM me if you want my sources). Further, you are drastically overestimating both Quincy and his father's influence on other players. However, if play along with your narrative, in the short term if could help with minimal long term benefits. But what about the scenario where he goes to UM and isn't happy? A CURRENT player with an outspoken father can do serious damage if they played their cards right and used the media properly to air the dirty laundry. Joe Rose, Manny Navarro, Gary Ferman would eat that **** up. The cost-benefit analysis makes PERFECT SENSE. The staff was not high on him as a player on and off the field. The upside was he committed to UM and helped recruit players...which he tried to do for Florida and failed. When you look at upside vs downside...the downside risk of bringing a potential locker room cancer onto the team at this critical point in the rebuilding process vastly outweighs his upside...unless, of course, he ends up as a top 10 pick which most will agree is highly unlikely.

2. QB - Cristobal was highly involved in Edouards recruitment. Cristobal left and they dropped Edouard. I guess that can be categorized as "changing their minds" but I don't see that as a bad thing. You keep using these demonstrative adjectives like panicked. I don't know Golden personally but I think the last adjective I would use to describe anything he does is panic. There were multiple defections around the time they offered Treon...Bethel, Powell. They moved on from Turner. Valentine was on the ropes and Cook, etc was clearly signing elsewhere. Perhaps a better explanation was there was now room for a 3rd QB who could play other skill positions if it didn't work out at QB? Treon was committed to FSU at the time but he ultimately ended up at UF. Something happened with his recruitment and perhaps the staff had a spot available and decided to make a run. Was their evaluation and strategy misguided? Perhaps. But the staffs motivations and tactics are VERY calculated. As I stated numerous times, I understand the criticisms of evaluations but feel that you are attacking the issue from the wrong angle.

3. Stubborn on Size -What do you mean by refused to offer Berrios? First, there is a significant difference between 5'11 and 5'8 in football. Our coaches have recruited and signed a ton of players in the 5'10-5'11 range, some under 5'10. Duke, Dorsett, Tracey Howard, Malcolm Lewis, Corn Elder, Antonio Crawford and now Berrios. Brandon Powell was also under 6'0. Your comment about recruiting players under 6'0 is a inflammatory. But like all other programs, most tend to look for kids 5'11 and above. Filter any recruiting database and look at the players that sign with all of the major programs. Bama, Auburn, Oklahoma, etc sign at most, one player under 5'11 per year. Also, look at the quantity of players at that height and how may are successful and you are at a less than 1% hit rate. The odds are against you. To be that small and get an offer, you have to be extremely special. Isn't the reality that most schools are hesitant to offer kids under 5'11 without a ton of a conviction or other factors/influences? Berrios came to our camp and was impressive but it wasn't until he went to the opening and his short area quickness tested off the charts. Combined with his growing relationship with Kaaya (who had leverage) and you have a solid basis for offering him. What I find most interesting is McKenzie ended up at Georgia with Sony. Fairly confident that is not a coincidence. I don't know much of anything about Dowels or McKenzie but clearly the staff did not think they were worthy of a UM scholarship and but history proves that they have no problem recruiting players of any size and shape.

4 Defensive Scheme - Last time I checked, isn't Alabama a better opportunity right now? Probably had less to do with Miami's defense scheme being bad and more to do with Alabama putting 25 1st rounders into the league over the last 5-6 years. Pretty sure they can use that pitch against almost all schools.

But let's embellish for a minute on scheme and further, player development. As stated, I have strongly dug my heels in the ground and defended Golden and the scheme. I 100% unequivocally believe our defensive problems have been due to a lack of talent. The guys that do have talent are mostly sophomores and freshman. I think the world of these players hearts and commitment but Shayon Greene, Kacy Rodgers, Luther Robinson, Jimmy Gaines, Kelvin Cain, AJ Highsmith, Tyrone Cornelius, Justin Renfrow have no business being on the field for Miami. I 100% blame Shannon and think Golden has done a good job of restocking the talent pool.

Here is the rub....How can Golden and D'Nofrio go to Temple, recruit a bunch of 2 stars and produce 2 of the best Defensive Lineman in the NFL in under 5 years - Terrance Knighton and Muhammed Wilkerson? Same coaching, same scheme. You can attack the defensive numbers at Temple all you want - which were very good. How can anyone attack a philosophy that has concrete evidence that they can develop players? They also produced a 2nd rd pick at safety and on offense - Bernard Pierce and Rod Streater (900 yards receiving in 2013). That is not a fluke. Think back to what Golden and co did with Tommy Streeter, Ben Jones, and even the players mentioned above. We went 9-4 with those JAGS. The defense was atrocious as the season went on...I believe there are many factors that contributed to this which I can elaborate on at a later date, but I believe that there will be A **** TON of people on here eating their own words in 2 years.

Great job CaneSB. Excellent post. Especially this paragraph:
"1. Quincy Wilson - Since you have used Ryan Mayes in numerous examples, it is clear that you are not very high on him. I have't seen his film nor will I watch it. But the debate about is not about offering Mayes instead, it is about the type of personality Golden does and doesn't want on this team. The coaching staff just flat out didn't like the kid's personality. Doesn't mean his is a bad kid. It just wasn't a fit and having an outspoken parent played a factor as well. (This is not an assumption, you can PM me if you want my sources). Further, you are drastically overestimating both Quincy and his father's influence on other players. However, if play along with your narrative, in the short term if could help with minimal long term benefits. But what about the scenario where he goes to UM and isn't happy? A CURRENT player with an outspoken father can do serious damage if they played their cards right and used the media properly to air the dirty laundry. Joe Rose, Manny Navarro, Gary Ferman would eat that **** up. The cost-benefit analysis makes PERFECT SENSE. The staff was not high on him as a player on and off the field. The upside was he committed to UM and helped recruit players...which he tried to do for Florida and failed. When you look at upside vs downside...the downside risk of bringing a potential locker room cancer onto the team at this critical point in the rebuilding process vastly outweighs his upside...unless, of course, he ends up as a top 10 pick which most will agree is highly unlikely."

I don't know why people keep ignoring this essential point. I'm mostly disappointed in Dmoney only talking about the athletic ability of local prospects while totally ignoring the personality/character aspect of them and whether or not they fit in the culture AG tries to establish here. Right or wrong, it's his prerogative to chose the "type" of personalities he sees to fit his team.

Dan, Pete, Glory and others who watch high school football in SF can only see the athletic ability of the those players but are not privy to other factors that can influence the decision to recruit or not. How good the player on the field is the only thing they build their opinion on. The volatility of numbers, dynamics of recruiting, personality issues, etc. all those factors are not their for them to understand why player X who is so good on the field is not offered.