My rant...

Able,

There wasn't a scheme we could use yesterday that was going to keep that FSU offense, sans absurd mistakes, under 30 points. I accepted that. For the most part, I think we chose the right approach because our options were limited going in.

If not on awaiting for the offense to make mistakes, for my own curiosity, what do you think the general philosophy (not scheme) is predicated on right on?
 
Advertisement
I guess you're more forgiving of D than I am.

I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point.


My point is that regardless of scheme, people will complain.

Before it was too much man. Then too much zone. Now it's the TYPE of zone.

When's the last time the majority of the fan base liked the scheme?

Give me some werewolves and cyclopses and cyborgs running on diesel fuel, and I'm good.

In general people don't even understand the scheme. Shannon morphed from straight 2 deep man to a matchup zone system (2005) with a couple years of heavy cover 3/cover 1 (2003/2006, 2004 before it fell apart) and all the while people complained about it like it was the same defense. People will never like the "scheme" unless they like the results. And even then they'll complain in the rare games when it doesn't work. It's easy to criticize when you don't have to fix it.

The scheme is really not that important. If it was, everybody would run the same thing. The difference between the best coordinators and the inferior ones is talent and the ability to execute the scheme, whatever it is. That's pretty much it. No DC runs an inferior system or he wouldn't run it, and nobody runs a superior system or everybody would follow suit.

That's probably the worst post I've ever read from you.

First of all, Cover 3 was never "heavy" under Shannon except when Bill Young was here. Even when we had Sean Taylor, as the ultimate centerfielder, it wasn't "heavy" here. I have no idea what you're even calling Cover 3.

People will like the scheme if they believe that, at least in theory, it's the best choice for placing our athletes in the best possible position. Some prefer a simple approach. Some prefer a more complex scheme. And, on and on. Your generalization is horrific here. I don't even know what "it's easy to criticize when you don't have to fix it" means. It's a message board. It's being discussed.

As for your "scheme is really not that important...if it was, everybody would run the same thing," that makes no sense. It's almost strangely illogical. The fact that so many guys run something different and add wrinkles/variations to completely different philosophies is a clear sign that scheme and philosophy are BOTH (because they're distinct) important. You're basically saying their irrelevant.

Finally, your "no DC runs an inferior system or he wouldn't run it" is just beyond comprehension coming from someone who's spent 10 years discussing football on message boards. Are you saying there is no such thing as a poor fit in terms of a system and that anyone can throw any system out there so long as the players are good and they can get them to execute it? So, a team wish a smallish front (say, VTech) would get the same result in 3-4 system (say, Stanford's)? Weird stuff.

I disagree entirely. First of all, Shannon teams later in his tenure ran quite a bit of cover 3/cover 1. For instance, the 8 man front mixing those defenses was the entire reason Greg Threat rang up 100 tackles in 2004. When we went on a horrific 3 game stretch in which teams exploited us we broke down and simplified back to his basic cover 2 man. Greg Threat could never rip off 100 tackles in our 2001/2002 style of defense.

You mentioned specific years where we ran "heavy" Cover 3. It's a totally different scheme and asks the LBs to play zones that our LBs were never "heavily" asked to play. We played far more man underneath than we ever did Cover 3. We brought a Safety down more often when Shannon's strict 2-deep began to show its limitations because we couldn't get the same rush from our front 4 and guys were chasing all over the field. Strictly citing Greg Threat's tackles as "proof" that we played Cover 3 is flawed.

Everybody has their preferences. Personally I prefer an aggressive yet simpler system because I think it's easier to take something basic and apply it to different offenses when you have 20 hours a week, and I think that pressuring the passer is paramount in modern day. Kiffin/Dungy's defenses for instance. But I accept that D'Onofrio's system or Schiano's for instance (which was quite complicated late in its day here) are fine as well. It's about having the right players and teaching them to execute. Now, surely there are poor fits for specific personnel, but most defensive coaches understand the type of personnel they want to run their system. I take it Golden/D are smart enough to make that determination. Right now I'd argue that we don't have the personnel to be great playing *any* system. We don't have explosion up front or athleticism in the back. But once these guys replenish the system, D'Onofrio's system won't be the limitation. It'll be the recruiting and the execution.

I don't really disagree with anything you said there, which is weird because it seems to contradict what you said in the original post. You openly claimed that scheme was irrelevant: "the scheme is not really important...if it was, everyone would run the same thing." What you're writing in this more recent post makes sense and I don't disagree we're still hamstrung and have consciously chosen to play a certain way. I've said as much in dozens of posts.

If anybody ever asks why Nick Saban is so successful, it's not because he's concocted some system that nobody else understands. It's because he recruits well, develops his players well, and teaches them to play his defense well. Same deal with any other successful coordinator. Likewise when a coach goes bad (eg Mickey Andrews), is it because his system fell apart--the same one that worked previously? Generally not. He just doesn't have the athletes anymore, or isn't as effective getting the execution.

Again, not sure what any of that has to do with what you stated earlier. You said "No DC runs an inferior system or he wouldn't run it..." That's not true. There are poor fits. Bad decisions by coordinators exist. They're human. What works in one place with great LBs (Manny Diaz's year at Ole Miss and his first year at Texas) may not work in another scenario (when he had different LBs/Ends doing what he wanted them to do). Scheme *is* important in the very sense that the execution of the players has to be a good match for their skill sets.

I answered in red above.
 
Able,

There wasn't a scheme we could use yesterday that was going to keep that FSU offense, sans absurd mistakes, under 30 points. I accepted that. For the most part, I think we chose the right approach because our options were limited going in.

If not on awaiting for the offense to make mistakes, for my own curiosity, what do you think the general philosophy (not scheme) is predicated on right on?


I should've clarified that my disagreement was over the word "egregious". For example, if we do simple things like tackle against Wake, that game isn't a nail-biter. We weren't hoping for Wake to ***** up. WE screwed up, and that allowed them to keep the chains moving.

I think our philosophy is to control the running game without committing an extra man, limit big plays, and make an impact play when the opportunity arises. And if the other team makes an egregious mistake (e.g. getting impatient and throwing into the teeth of the coverage), that's an added bonus.
 
You said "No DC runs an inferior system or he wouldn't run it..." That's not true. There are poor fits.


I think the disconnect here is over the semantics of "inferior".

I don't think a "poor fit" is the same as an "inferior" scheme.

The Tampa 2 isn't inferior to the 4-3 Under.

However the Tampa 2 might be a bad fit if you have big maulers at CB who don't excel in zone, a MLB who doesn't have the range to get deep in his drop, etc...
 
Able,

There wasn't a scheme we could use yesterday that was going to keep that FSU offense, sans absurd mistakes, under 30 points. I accepted that. For the most part, I think we chose the right approach because our options were limited going in.

If not on awaiting for the offense to make mistakes, for my own curiosity, what do you think the general philosophy (not scheme) is predicated on right on?


I should've clarified that my disagreement was over the word "egregious". For example, if we do simple things like tackle against Wake, that game isn't a nail-biter. We weren't hoping for Wake to ***** up. WE screwed up, and that allowed them to keep the chains moving.

I think our philosophy is to control the running game without committing an extra man, limit big plays, and make an impact play when the opportunity arises. And if the other team makes an egregious mistake (e.g. getting impatient and throwing into the teeth of the coverage), that's an added bonus.

I should have clarified and repeated that I'm talking about "the big" games. FSU, Clemson, VTech (though their offense sucks), UF (though their offense sucks) and whoever we'll play in the bowl game. ****, add in "non-Wake"-type mediocre teams with decent offenses (if they exist). Theoretically, against the teams we'll need to beat to win Championships, "what is our philosophy?" I don't think we're that far apart.
 
The funny thing is if Golden ever get's the D to a dominate level......the naysayers will be proven correct anyway because "they finally did what you recommended" years ago.

Who are the naysayers? I realize this board is all about ____ vs. ____, but who are these naysayers and what do they say exactly?

Not you......there are legions of Coach D haters on this board. It just ****es me off that people just "lock in" on an opinion and need to be proven correct. A national championship wouldn't satisfy these blood suckers.
 
The funny thing is if Golden ever get's the D to a dominate level......the naysayers will be proven correct anyway because "they finally did what you recommended" years ago.

Who are the naysayers? I realize this board is all about ____ vs. ____, but who are these naysayers and what do they say exactly?

Not you......there are legions of Coach D haters on this board. It just ****es me off that people just "lock in" on an opinion and need to be proven correct. A national championship wouldn't satisfy these blood suckers.

I'm getting negged by fools because who think I'm somehow hating on this scheme or Coach D. The hilarious thing is, as some can attest to, I was getting negged last year for defending D'Ono. It's just ridiculous to me that something about what Coach D is doing (spot dropping his players) can't be addressed without it turning into a "Coach D haters" vs. "Coach D slurpers" thing.
 
Last edited:
Who else in college football plays with this schemes/philosophy & how good or bad are those teams?

LOL. This scheme works for Saban. Worked pretty well for Parcells. Before going full pedo, worked pretty well at Penn State.

You're showing your *** for both negging and for your commentary.

(1) Get it together. I'm not even hating on D'Ono or his scheme.

(2) As for your comments, we don't run the same scheme and coverages Saban does. Every 3-4 defense doesn't have the same coverages behind it.
 
Advertisement
Who else in college football plays with this schemes/philosophy & how good or bad are those teams?

LOL. This scheme works for Saban. Worked pretty well for Parcells. Before going full pedo, worked pretty well at Penn State.

You're showing your *** for both negging and for your commentary.

(1) Get it together. I'm not even hating on D'Ono or his scheme.

(2) As for your comments, we don't run the same scheme and coverages Saban does. Every 3-4 defense doesn't have the same coverages behind it.

I think this fact is often missed by many folks. Satan runs something completely different than what we're doing at Miami. Pruitt is doing something completely different too. The fundamental core of their defensive coverages is centered around pattern match/receiver distribution with underneath match principles.
 
Who else in college football plays with this schemes/philosophy & how good or bad are those teams?

LOL. This scheme works for Saban. Worked pretty well for Parcells. Before going full pedo, worked pretty well at Penn State.

You're showing your *** for both negging and for your commentary.

(1) Get it together. I'm not even hating on D'Ono or his scheme.

(2) As for your comments, we don't run the same scheme and coverages Saban does. Every 3-4 defense doesn't have the same coverages behind it.

A site admin shouldn't be acting like a pompous ****...that's why I negged you, not because I think you are or aren't hating on the scheme. This defense works for others, and has worked in the past for these coaches. How many of our players would even sniff the 2-deep at Bama? Howard maybe? That's pretty much it. The scheme is being designed and implemented to put inferior talent, experience, and depth in a position to succeed. At that point, players have to make plays. Our horses just aren't good enough yet.
 
Who else in college football plays with this schemes/philosophy & how good or bad are those teams?

LOL. This scheme works for Saban. Worked pretty well for Parcells. Before going full pedo, worked pretty well at Penn State.

You're showing your *** for both negging and for your commentary.

(1) Get it together. I'm not even hating on D'Ono or his scheme.

(2) As for your comments, we don't run the same scheme and coverages Saban does. Every 3-4 defense doesn't have the same coverages behind it.

A site admin shouldn't be acting like a pompous ****...that's why I negged you, not because I think you are or aren't hating on the scheme. This defense works for others, and has worked in the past for these coaches. How many of our players would even sniff the 2-deep at Bama? Howard maybe? That's pretty much it. The scheme is being designed and implemented to put inferior talent, experience, and depth in a position to succeed. At that point, players have to make plays. Our horses just aren't good enough yet.

A pompous ****? Point out where and I'll apologize for it if it happened. Your comment in the neg specifically said "Captain of the sinking ship."

Frankly, I don't think you know what you're looking at, as evidenced by the comparisons you made. All that other stuff you just mentioned has nothing to do with anything I've mentioned. Your comments indicate that you don't know the difference between what we're doing and how "this scheme works for Saban." That's not being pompous; it's just pointing out that someone who is "LOL"ing is not being accurate.
 
Able,

There wasn't a scheme we could use yesterday that was going to keep that FSU offense, sans absurd mistakes, under 30 points. I accepted that. For the most part, I think we chose the right approach because our options were limited going in.

If not on awaiting for the offense to make mistakes, for my own curiosity, what do you think the general philosophy (not scheme) is predicated on right on?


I should've clarified that my disagreement was over the word "egregious". For example, if we do simple things like tackle against Wake, that game isn't a nail-biter. We weren't hoping for Wake to ***** up. WE screwed up, and that allowed them to keep the chains moving.

I think our philosophy is to control the running game without committing an extra man, limit big plays, and make an impact play when the opportunity arises. And if the other team makes an egregious mistake (e.g. getting impatient and throwing into the teeth of the coverage), that's an added bonus.

I should have clarified and repeated that I'm talking about "the big" games. FSU, Clemson, VTech (though their offense sucks), UF (though their offense sucks) and whoever we'll play in the bowl game. ****, add in "non-Wake"-type mediocre teams with decent offenses (if they exist). Theoretically, against the teams we'll need to beat to win Championships, "what is our philosophy?" I don't think we're that far apart.


I don't know how much our philosophy in championship-level games in 2013 will differ from our philosophy in championship-level games in 2015 and beyond. Probably not drastically. We'll have more talent and depth, so that will potentially allow for more versatility and risk-taking.

But I think the biggest difference will be in what we need to win.

In order to beat FSU last night, we needed elite QB play and/or egregious mistakes by FSU.

But in 2016, our margin for error shouldn't be that small.
 
It's just ridiculous to me that something about what Coach D is doing (spot dropping his players) can't be addressed


I haven't analyzed this in depth.

Why do you think we spot-drop?

I know there's been somewhat of a sea change toward pattern recognition over the years.

Do you think Golden and D'Onofrio are behind the times? Do you think they're trying to build toward pattern reading? Do you think we pattern-read, but not enough? Do you think they've tried it and the results were worse than spot-dropping?

There has to be a rhyme and reason to all of this beyond "Golden and D'Onofrio are dolts" (I know you've never said anything like that, but others have).
 
It's just ridiculous to me that something about what Coach D is doing (spot dropping his players) can't be addressed


I haven't analyzed this in depth.

Why do you think we spot-drop?

I know there's been somewhat of a sea change toward pattern recognition over the years.

Do you think Golden and D'Onofrio are behind the times? Do you think they're trying to build toward pattern reading? Do you think we pattern-read, but not enough? Do you think they've tried it and the results were worse than spot-dropping?

There has to be a rhyme and reason to all of this beyond "Golden and D'Onofrio are dolts" (I know you've never said anything like that, but others have).

First of all, to be clear, I don't think it's "all we do." We have sprinkled in some other stuff. It's just what we're leaning on, too.

I think it's the safest thing to ask our guys to do. It may cause the least amount of miscommunications and generally asks the team to play as a unit. That has some pros. It probably gets us into less single matchups than the alternative. I think that plays into the approach of minimizing errors.

The problem is that it is combined with a DL unit that still does not have enough dynamic playmakers. Another problem is that, given the alternative, I think we more or less executed what we set out to do on defense last night. Like I've said, as currently constructed, we were not going to hold that team to less than 31.
 
Who else in college football plays with this schemes/philosophy & how good or bad are those teams?

LOL. This scheme works for Saban. Worked pretty well for Parcells. Before going full pedo, worked pretty well at Penn State.

You're showing your *** for both negging and for your commentary.

(1) Get it together. I'm not even hating on D'Ono or his scheme.

(2) As for your comments, we don't run the same scheme and coverages Saban does. Every 3-4 defense doesn't have the same coverages behind it.

A site admin shouldn't be acting like a pompous ****...that's why I negged you, not because I think you are or aren't hating on the scheme. This defense works for others, and has worked in the past for these coaches. How many of our players would even sniff the 2-deep at Bama? Howard maybe? That's pretty much it. The scheme is being designed and implemented to put inferior talent, experience, and depth in a position to succeed. At that point, players have to make plays. Our horses just aren't good enough yet.

A pompous ****? Point out where and I'll apologize for it if it happened. Your comment in the neg specifically said "Captain of the sinking ship."

Frankly, I don't think you know what you're looking at, as evidenced by the comparisons you made. All that other stuff you just mentioned has nothing to do with anything I've mentioned. Your comments indicate that you don't know the difference between what we're doing and how "this scheme works for Saban." That's not being pompous; it's just pointing out that someone who is "LOL"ing is not being accurate.

The post I negged was pompous. A site admin should be better than that post, as well as the one saying you were getting 'negged by fools'. The post I negged was made by a usually smart guy acting like a 'fool', and thus playing the captain of a sinking ship. The post I 'LOL''d at was from someone who was attempting to clown the scheme, which is stupid, IMO, because it's the same basic scheme that has been very successful at every level. That doesn't mean it's implemented exactly the same way as those I listed. Obviously, every DC will put his own stamp on what they do based on the personnel they have and the capabilities of that personnel, which made his question rhetorical anyway (i.e., no one runs any basic scheme exactly the same way).
 
Advertisement
LOL. This scheme works for Saban. Worked pretty well for Parcells. Before going full pedo, worked pretty well at Penn State.

You're showing your *** for both negging and for your commentary.

(1) Get it together. I'm not even hating on D'Ono or his scheme.

(2) As for your comments, we don't run the same scheme and coverages Saban does. Every 3-4 defense doesn't have the same coverages behind it.

A site admin shouldn't be acting like a pompous ****...that's why I negged you, not because I think you are or aren't hating on the scheme. This defense works for others, and has worked in the past for these coaches. How many of our players would even sniff the 2-deep at Bama? Howard maybe? That's pretty much it. The scheme is being designed and implemented to put inferior talent, experience, and depth in a position to succeed. At that point, players have to make plays. Our horses just aren't good enough yet.

A pompous ****? Point out where and I'll apologize for it if it happened. Your comment in the neg specifically said "Captain of the sinking ship."

Frankly, I don't think you know what you're looking at, as evidenced by the comparisons you made. All that other stuff you just mentioned has nothing to do with anything I've mentioned. Your comments indicate that you don't know the difference between what we're doing and how "this scheme works for Saban." That's not being pompous; it's just pointing out that someone who is "LOL"ing is not being accurate.

The post I negged was pompous. A site admin should be better than that post, as well as the one saying you were getting 'negged by fools'. The post I negged was made by a usually smart guy acting like a 'fool', and thus playing the captain of a sinking ship. The post I 'LOL''d at was from someone who was attempting to clown the scheme, which is stupid, IMO, because it's the same basic scheme that has been very successful at every level. That doesn't mean it's implemented exactly the same way as those I listed. Obviously, every DC will put his own stamp on what they do based on the personnel they have and the capabilities of that personnel, which made his question rhetorical anyway (i.e., no one runs any basic scheme exactly the same way).

Just re-read the post you claim as pompous. I don't see it. I told PMC it's the worst post (nothing to do with him personally) that I'd ever read from him and then tried to explain why. If that's not it, I asked for you to point it out. In any case, it will be what it will be. My intention is not to come off that way.

As for the substantive comments:

It's not the "same basic scheme that has been successful at every level." There are enormous distinctions between what we do and what many other teams do that goes beyond a Coordinator's stamp. I guess therein lies where we're not going to agree on this issue.
 
I think Duke is elite. But he is still fairly slight. He needs a Mike James to split carries. For whatever reason, as long as Duke has a pulse, Coley seems intent on running him 25+ in a game and Crawford 5 to 10. We need more balance there.

you do know that his 23 carries were his most ever besides the 30 against wake
 
I love talking Xs and Os. But I find it hilarious that anyone is complaining about the type of "scheme" we are as if it had any true impact on the game yesterday. Every scheme has strengths and weaknesses. It is easy to pick out the bad plays and explain how you would have done something different.

You don't outscheme top 5 teams when their is a clear talent advantage at almost every position. In fact, our defensive play calling, except for a handful of plays, kept us in the game. We held FSU offense to 41 points which included 2 turnovers by our offense and their starters played the entire game unlike every other opponent they played this year. The game close at halftime, we had a chance. in CFB, talent wins.

Plain and simple, FSU has significantly more talented than our team right now. And guess what, Shannon left the cupboard bare, we have had the NCAA cloud hanging over our head and we are 7-1, odds on favorite to win the coastal for the second year in a row, have a top 5 recruiting class, and an opportunity to finish with a 10 win season for the first time in 10 years and play in a bowl game. We are a few years away from being back on top but we played with FSU until the game got away from us and there is a ton of young guns on this team that will be bring us to the promise land in a few years. Patience.
 
Back
Top