Lil B

AtlAtty

Recruit
Staff member
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Jan 30, 2012
Messages
1,522
Looking at the hang time numbers reminded me of why football uses the 40 yard dash to determine speed.
It was the Dallas Cowboys who first started use of measuring 40 yard dash speed. And the reason a person running a 4.4 40 yard dash was so important was the comparison between speed and hang time on a punt. Basically, can a special teams player cover 40 years in the hang time that a punter can put on the ball.
‘The Cowboys of the 60’s/70’s were way ahead of the NFL in innovation As were he Steelers of the 70’s and Niners of the 80’s. .
Just like the Hurricanes of the 80’s were ahead of the curve.
 

Fawk_U Haters

Junior
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
3,513
Hopefully big bro already told him how to tell Patke to **** off
Go check out the stats big bro put up before he got to Miami. Since i know you're lazy AF i'll save you the time

See All
STATS
2020
2019
2018
2017

FG%FG1-1920-2930-3940-4950+LNGXPMXPAPTS
90.920-220-05-56-67-92-257373797
72.421-290-07-86-115-63-4533739100
73.714-190-06-73-54-61-153545596
83.315-180-07-76-62-40-144404085
 

r0fl_57omp7

Sophomore
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
579
Go check out the stats big bro put up before he got to Miami. Since i know you're lazy AF i'll save you the time

See All
STATS
2020
2019
2018
2017

FG%FG1-1920-2930-3940-4950+LNGXPMXPAPTS
90.920-220-05-56-67-92-257373797
72.421-290-07-86-115-63-4533739100
73.714-190-06-73-54-61-153545596
83.315-180-07-76-62-40-144404085
Jokes on you. Patke already admitted to having "left him alone" and let him practice on his own like a professional.
 

Fawk_U Haters

Junior
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
3,513
Also did anyone else notice the gale force wind they were kicking with?
Jokes on you. Patke already admitted to having "left him alone" and let him practice on his own like a professional.
Just keep being a hater. it's fine, just admit it. Stats don't lie and he became a better kicker while here. You can leave someone along, but that doesn't mean they aren't coached. See how 2 things can be true at once. Keep trying tho, it's funny.
 

r0fl_57omp7

Sophomore
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
579
Also did anyone else notice the gale force wind they were kicking with?

Just keep being a hater. it's fine, just admit it. Stats don't lie and he became a better kicker while here. You can leave someone along, but that doesn't mean they aren't coached. See how 2 things can be true at once. Keep trying tho, it's funny.
Yeah just like Bubba developed amazingly under coach Patke's tutelage.

Living up to the username though. props.

All of our best players were transfers and not internal developments. So not just on Patke. But that point stands.
 

Fawk_U Haters

Junior
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Messages
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Yeah just like Bubba developed amazingly under coach Patke's tutelage.

Living up to the username though. props.

All of our best players were transfers and not internal developments. So not just on Patke. But that point stands.
I guess that is my point. Patke got all the blame for Bubba, but no credit for Jose when the stats show Jose was a SHITTY kicker until he got to UM. People just can't have it both way.

Also as for the transfers we did develop them wouldn't you say? I mean if a kid was being developed at their original school do you think they would have transferred? Now i get sometimes circumstances like Roche moving to better comp and Bubba not being happy, but you can't say they were those players at their old schools.

Development is 90% on the player to be honest. I know you might not think so, but you get out of what you put into things. Why do you think Devonta Smith is amazing and Mark Pope sucks? Who spends more time on their craft?
 

r0fl_57omp7

Sophomore
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
579
I guess that is my point. Patke got all the blame for Bubba, but no credit for Jose when the stats show Jose was a SHITTY kicker until he got to UM. People just can't have it both way.

Also as for the transfers we did develop them wouldn't you say? I mean if a kid was being developed at their original school do you think they would have transferred? Now i get sometimes circumstances like Roche moving to better comp and Bubba not being happy, but you can't say they were those players at their old schools.

Development is 90% on the player to be honest. I know you might not think so, but you get out of what you put into things. Why do you think Devonta Smith is amazing and Mark Pope sucks? Who spends more time on their craft?
Bruh, you are only seeing half the issue. Our development is ****. Look at punting. We had to bring in a transfer punter so we could stop having -4 yard shanked punts. Kids being developed or not is only a small % of a reason why they might transfer.
Again, our best players were all transfers and yes they were already "that guy". Look at King, he was literally in the heisman race one year. Look at players like our ST players. Look at players like KJ Osborn. Yes, they were already that guy. Bubba bolden, Jaelan Philips, etc. All of our best players were transfers. Hopefully things start to look up with these new coaches.
The only player I can even think of in recent years that was developed here was Greg Rousseau.

But I don't take back my comments about Patke. I may like him as a person, but I don't feel like we have a good special teams, and if we do it is despite him, not due to him. Also again, the development issue is mainly across the board, not just ST. Just sayin that as a joke about Lil B.
 

TRick72

Recruit
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
3,112
I guess that is my point. Patke got all the blame for Bubba, but no credit for Jose when the stats show Jose was a SHITTY kicker until he got to UM. People just can't have it both way.

Also as for the transfers we did develop them wouldn't you say? I mean if a kid was being developed at their original school do you think they would have transferred? Now i get sometimes circumstances like Roche moving to better comp and Bubba not being happy, but you can't say they were those players at their old schools.

Development is 90% on the player to be honest. I know you might not think so, but you get out of what you put into things. Why do you think Devonta Smith is amazing and Mark Pope sucks? Who spends more time on their craft?
A shitty kicker? Jose was a Groza finalist at FIU but carry on...
 

OriginalCanesCanesCanes

All-ACC (#1 most reproted porster on CIS)
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Messages
23,164
Bruh, you are only seeing half the issue. Our development is ****. Look at punting. We had to bring in a transfer punter so we could stop having -4 yard shanked punts. Kids being developed or not is only a small % of a reason why they might transfer.
Again, our best players were all transfers and yes they were already "that guy". Look at King, he was literally in the heisman race one year. Look at players like our ST players. Look at players like KJ Osborn. Yes, they were already that guy. Bubba bolden, Jaelan Philips, etc. All of our best players were transfers. Hopefully things start to look up with these new coaches.
The only player I can even think of in recent years that was developed here was Greg Rousseau.

But I don't take back my comments about Patke. I may like him as a person, but I don't feel like we have a good special teams, and if we do it is despite him, not due to him. Also again, the development issue is mainly across the board, not just ST. Just sayin that as a joke about Lil B.

Look at the difference in punting between Hedley’s first year and his second year. He developed. Look at Borregales at FIU versus at Miami. Again development. Stats don’t lie.

They may have done it on their own, but they developed when they were at Miami. As far as the other players, that’s a different discussion, we’re talking about kicking special teams or just special teams in general.
 

No_Fly_Zone

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Messages
4,899
Look at the difference in punting between Hedley’s first year and his second year. He developed. Look at Borregales at FIU versus at Miami. Again development. Stats don’t lie.

They may have done it on their own, but they developed when they were at Miami. As far as the other players, that’s a different discussion, we’re talking about kicking special teams or just special teams in general.

Borregales actually had better stats as a Freshman at FIU than his Sophomore and Junior seasons. But nobody can seriously dispute that his best season was last year as a Cane. Hedly has also steadily improved his game.

I strongly suspect that had very little to do with Patke, who is a former linebacker and not a kicking coach/instructor. In fact, both Hedley and Borregales utilized private kicking coaches, though to what extent they still do at this point, I am not certain. Ultimately, I think the most credit anyone can give to Patke in terms of Hedley and Borregales development is that he was smart enough to stay out of their way and let them hone their crafts like the adults they were when they set foot on campus.

But if we're talking about STs beyond kicking, there's very little to be excited about...
  • UM was ranked No. 121 out of No.127 in average punt return length;
  • UM was ranked No. 69 of 127 in punt return defense (would have been worse but for our stud punter);
  • UM was ranked No. 101 of 127 in kick return defense;
  • UM was ranked No. 60 of 127 in average kick return length.
So in 2020 we were at or below average in kick/punt coverage and kick/punt returns (and damn near the bottom of the NCAA in half those categories). I don't have the stats, but I would bet we muffed/fumbled at least ten 10 punts this season, too.
 

No_Fly_Zone

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Messages
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I guess that is my point. Patke got all the blame for Bubba, but no credit for Jose when the stats show Jose was a SHITTY kicker until he got to UM. People just can't have it both way.

Also as for the transfers we did develop them wouldn't you say? I mean if a kid was being developed at their original school do you think they would have transferred? Now i get sometimes circumstances like Roche moving to better comp and Bubba not being happy, but you can't say they were those players at their old schools.

Development is 90% on the player to be honest. I know you might not think so, but you get out of what you put into things. Why do you think Devonta Smith is amazing and Mark Pope sucks? Who spends more time on their craft?

On the first point, Baxa is probably Exhibit A of a kicker with leg talent but who got in his own head and couldn't get his mind right. A great coach might be able to help a kid out of that sort of internal dialogue, but it's not easy. End of the day, I probably blame Perry more for Baxa's soft psyche than I do Patke. Kid was never the same after Perry made his girl an amateur porn sensation

Staying on the topic of our punter/kicker, Hedley & Borregales definitely developed, but that does not mean Patke developed them. Patke was a linebacker with zero previous experience as on-field coach, much less a ST coach or a kicking coach. Kicking is a highly technical craft developed through nuance and repetition. And notably, both Hedley and Borregales each had their own private kicking instructors before they ever stepped foot on campus. Giving Patke credit for their development because they all happened to be here at the same time is falsely assuming that a correlation equals a causation relationship.

I generally agree with the notion that development is mostly on the player. Proper instruction and coaching is important, but once an athlete has received that instruction, what do they do with it? How much work do they put in? You can try to evaluate and recruit for those traits, and maybe even teach that work ethic/culture to a certain degree, but at some point the player must put in the work.

I keep repeating myself, but my gripe with Patke (other than him being a non-factor in recruiting) as a ST coach has more to do with his performance in those coaching areas that are most within his purview and control (i.e., kick/punt return and coverage) and how subpar we were in those areas last year (notwithstanding our amazing kicker and punter).
 

Fawk_U Haters

Junior
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Messages
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On the first point, Baxa is probably Exhibit A of a kicker with leg talent but who got in his own head and couldn't get his mind right. A great coach might be able to help a kid out of that sort of internal dialogue, but it's not easy. End of the day, I probably blame Perry more for Baxa's soft psyche than I do Patke. Kid was never the same after Perry made his girl an amateur porn sensation

Staying on the topic of our punter/kicker, Hedley & Borregales definitely developed, but that does not mean Patke developed them. Patke was a linebacker with zero previous experience as on-field coach, much less a ST coach or a kicking coach. Kicking is a highly technical craft developed through nuance and repetition. And notably, both Hedley and Borregales each had their own private kicking instructors before they ever stepped foot on campus. Giving Patke credit for their development because they all happened to be here at the same time is falsely assuming that a correlation equals a causation relationship.

I generally agree with the notion that development is mostly on the player. Proper instruction and coaching is important, but once an athlete has received that instruction, what do they do with it? How much work do they put in? You can try to evaluate and recruit for those traits, and maybe even teach that work ethic/culture to a certain degree, but at some point the player must put in the work.

I keep repeating myself, but my gripe with Patke (other than him being a non-factor in recruiting) as a ST coach has more to do with his performance in those coaching areas that are most within his purview and control (i.e., kick/punt return and coverage) and how subpar we were in those areas last year (notwithstanding our amazing kicker and punter).
I agree with the Perry comment. Bubbas prob was never leg he was a head case

On your second paragraph...my whole point is if Patke gets all the blame for the horrible 2019, then he should get the credit for 2020.

We both agree on the third paragraph

We can agree to disagree on the last paragraph. Our coverage units, minus 1 kick against NC state, in which we had 17 players not playing due to covid were good last year. Most of those 17 kids were on our kickoff units which meant our starters, who already were tired because their backups were out, had to play specials that game too. Hell out punt coverage was historically great.

As for punt return can you really blame Patke for the kid dropping the ball? I mean we could blame him if he continually trotted him out there, but he made the change. Then gurvan put the ball on the ground, then X put the ball on the ground. Do you blame the coach for the kids putting hte ball on the ground when they work on catching punts, ad nauseum, during practice?
 

No_Fly_Zone

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Dec 28, 2016
Messages
4,899
Wrong is still wrong tho right?
Your initial comment clearly took issue with his purported failure to "even take the time to ok it up." My comment was in response to that, demonstrating: (a) you guys are arguing over semi-finalist vs. finalist; and (b) if he looked it up on Google or Wikipedia, it would have told him Jose was a 2018 Groza Finalist.
 

r0fl_57omp7

Sophomore
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
579
Look at the difference in punting between Hedley’s first year and his second year. He developed. Look at Borregales at FIU versus at Miami. Again development. Stats don’t lie.

They may have done it on their own, but they developed when they were at Miami. As far as the other players, that’s a different discussion, we’re talking about kicking special teams or just special teams in general.
I don't disagree with you. Just saying there is a difference with players developing on their own and the coaches developing them. We went out and got an already good kicker and punter through transfers. The same actually applies at many positions. Nobody is arguing they haven't developed or gotten better. Just pointing out the circumstances.

Also, you would kind of hope a position that requires repetition, or really any position on the field, that a player would get better with more experience and age. (I know that isn't always the case, but with ST kickers/punters it really seems like it should be) So comparing Borregales' sophomore season to his senior season stats and saying "development" isn't really saying much. Now had we taken him from FIU kicking 40% FG, and
turned him into 90% FG, that's a little different. He was always a good kicker is my point. And Patke admitted to treat him and Hedley like pros and stay out of their way, which is where my joke came from.

And as No_Fly_Zone is pointing out, dude was literally already a Groza Finalist. So again, proving the point that he was already a good kicker.
Our best players have been transfers. That may not even be a bad thing, it's just the way things are right now. That doesn't mean we can't win or thrive, or recruit well, etc. Just saying our coaching & development needs to get better. You can be having all these busts like Mark Pope all over the team.
 
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