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Keontra Smith Junior Day tidbit

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calinative umstudent said:
but Smith isn't top 5 which I literally showed.

He's barely a top 10 db for us. Thats just the facts. Sure we may not hit on all our targets,, but thats when we should shoot for a commitment from Smith. Not before the guys ahead of him have even announced where they want to go. Thats called settling.
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Top 5 safety is what I meant, which he definitely is.... Maybe even top 3.
 
calinative umstudent said:
I think you guys are completely missing my point lol.
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The point is the defense the coaches want to employ. It’s been said profusely by mods that the defense is transitioning to a 4-2-5 Defense.

Per krossover.com -

WHY DO PROGRAMS RUN THE 4-2-5?

For many coaches, the 4-2-5 is a natural progression of the famed 4-3 over defense that Jimmy Johnson ran at Miami back in the 1980’s. The scheme offers many advantages:

- The ability to have more speed on the field- replacing a linebacker with a cornerback allows a team to cover more space on the field.
- A defensive coach can divide the unit into half- with a front six and a back five. From there, coaches can simplify the responsibilities of each half of the defense.
- You can separate techniques between the front six linemen/linebackers and the back five defensive backs, creating variations of the coverage, giving the offense the perception that your defensive coverage is more complex than it actually is.
- With four players on each side, you can easily adjust to offensive motion.
It gives you a better rush and stunt package by allowing you to send four players to each side.
- As a gap-oriented scheme (7 gaps in all) it limits the ability of any split end offenses.
- It’s a great defense for hybrid safety/linebackers who are good blitzers. In a normal 4-3 defense, these types of players may not be able to see the field, but in the 4-2-5, these types of athletes will drive any opposing coach crazy.

To add to this it’s been mentioned a bunch that we can’t cover the middle of the field. In order to do that better we need to employ defenses with more dbs and/or coverages. HOWEVER, when we did that last year, we got gashed by the run of it hit the second level. Therefore, if we deploy the 5th db or second lb as a hybrid, it protects against the run with a much surer tackler than a typical db, and protects against the pass with a versatile hybrid who can excel covering TEs, RBs, blitzing or shadowing DT QBs.

This explanation points out why it’s important to:
- Separate CB,FS,SS
-incorporate defensive style into the recruit board
-value versatility
 
PittsburghCane said:
The point is the defense the coaches want to employ. It’s been said profusely by mods that the defense is transitioning to a 4-2-5 Defense.

Per krossover.com -

WHY DO PROGRAMS RUN THE 4-2-5?

For many coaches, the 4-2-5 is a natural progression of the famed 4-3 over defense that Jimmy Johnson ran at Miami back in the 1980’s. The scheme offers many advantages:

- The ability to have more speed on the field- replacing a linebacker with a cornerback allows a team to cover more space on the field.
- A defensive coach can divide the unit into half- with a front six and a back five. From there, coaches can simplify the responsibilities of each half of the defense.
- You can separate techniques between the front six linemen/linebackers and the back five defensive backs, creating variations of the coverage, giving the offense the perception that your defensive coverage is more complex than it actually is.
- With four players on each side, you can easily adjust to offensive motion.
It gives you a better rush and stunt package by allowing you to send four players to each side.
- As a gap-oriented scheme (7 gaps in all) it limits the ability of any split end offenses.
- It’s a great defense for hybrid safety/linebackers who are good blitzers. In a normal 4-3 defense, these types of players may not be able to see the field, but in the 4-2-5, these types of athletes will drive any opposing coach crazy.

To add to this it’s been mentioned a bunch that we can’t cover the middle of the field. In order to do that better we need to employ defenses with more dbs and/or coverages. HOWEVER, when we did that last year, we got gashed by the run of it hit the second level. Therefore, if we deploy the 5th db or second lb as a hybrid, it protects against the run with a much surer tackler than a typical db, and protects against the pass with a versatile hybrid who can excel covering TEs, RBs, blitzing or shadowing DT QBs.

This explanation points out why it’s important to:
- Separate CB,FS,SS
-incorporate defensive style into the recruit board
-value versatility
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An NFL example of Smith, per NFL insiders and BTSC-
The Steelers’ search for an upgrade at safety led them to Morgan Burnett, whose ability to play a dime linebacker role could help Pittsburgh at two positions of need.
 
calinative umstudent said:
I absolutely do not see the increased value in a guy that is a hybrid S/LB when we are already bringing in 4 ******* Lbs in this class. sorry but I want a ******* pure S. I'm not concerned AT ALL what Smith can provide as a LB. I'm concerned with what he provides as a Safety prospect. And in that regard he doesn't crack the top 3 of Richards, Battle, or Gant. And I'd still take McIntosh who could be a safety in the future, or switching Frierson, Blades, or even having Stevenson play there.

I don't at all have a personal hatred for him, and you implying that is pretty retarded. I'm pointing out what you're failing to comprehend -theres at least 10 DBs I've named that should be prioritized over him. You still have yet to disagree with that. So I suppose you either think we shouldn't recruit the better players because they might not pick us, or just get Smiths commitment, then kick him out of the class at a later date.

Either way, I think you're just completely wrong about this situation. This is simple give me your order of DBs in this class. If you have Smith in your top 5-6, then we can just agree to disagree that you think Smith is a better player than I do. If you don't have Smith as a top 6 DB, Idk why the **** you're even arguing with me, because it would mean I'm right.
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I guess you obviously don’t know the difference between a SS and a FS.

Smith is the top SS on our board.

We want 1 SS and 2 FS in this class.

Smith is a stud and I definitely want him in Surge19.

I do think that we have better options at CB than Couch who seems like a silent along with Smith.

The top Safeties on our board are:

CB/FS Stevenson
ATH/FS Gant
RB/FS Richards
SS Smith
FS Battle

McIntosh is either a RB or OLB here (would outgrow SS in no time with his frame and genetics).

Gant is a long shot and Battle loves O$U.

We won’t quit recruiting them, but I wouldn’t pass on another player at the top of our board to wait on them.

Stevenson will be a huge battle with a lot of $$$$ flying around.

Please go watch Smith’s film and honestly say that you don’t want him in this class.

Diaz loves this kid’s game, and I’ll take his evals over anyone else here.

You also bring up the fact that we only want 4 LBs and you don’t care if he has the flexibility to play LB.

Well if you haven’t noticed, Diaz is trying to go more 4-2-5, so having a stud SS that can line up at OLB is invaluable.

Not to mention the fact that I along with a few others always felt this LB class would be 4-5 players and this is a guy that has the versatility to play both OLB and SS in our scheme.

Smith would be a great addition to this class, there is a reason Baga has offered him (you think Saban sees him as a LB or SS in their scheme?)
 
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tyrn said:
I guess you obviously don’t know the difference between a SS and a FS.

Smith is the top SS on our board.

We want 1 SS and 2 FS in this class.

Smith is a stud and I definitely want him in Surge19.

I do think that we have better options at CB than Couch who seems like a silent along with Smith.

The top Safeties on our board are:

CB/FS Stevenson
ATH/FS Gant
RB/FS Richards
SS Smith
FS Battle

McIntosh is either a RB or OLB here (would outgrow SS in no time with his frame and genetics).

Gant is a long shot and Battle loves O$U.

We won’t quit recruiting them, but I wouldn’t pass on another player at the top of our board to wait on them.

Stevenson will be a huge battle with a lot of $$$$ flying around.

Please go watch Smith’s film and honestly say that you don’t want him in this class.

Diaz loves this kid’s game, and I’ll take his evals over anyone else here.

You also bring up the fact that we only want 4 LBs and you don’t care if he has the flexibility to play LB.

Well if you haven’t noticed, Diaz is trying to go more 4-2-5, so having a stud SS that can line up at OLB is invaluable.

Not to mention the fact that I along with a few others always felt this LB class would be 4-5 players and this is a guy that has the versatility to play both OLB and SS in our scheme.

Smith would be a great addition to this class, there is a reason Baga has offered him (you think Saban sees him as a LB or SS in their scheme?)
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Great analysis. Who do you think our best options are at CB?
 
PittsburghCane said:
The point is the defense the coaches want to employ. It’s been said profusely by mods that the defense is transitioning to a 4-2-5 Defense.
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Bruh I understand the 425 defense and how to separate FS and SS. Also there has been absolutely no actual indication from Diaz that our primary defense will be switched to a 425. Will we run 425? no ****, its just a nickel defense. But will we run 425 when the offense is in 2 wide? Doubtful.

The problem with all you guys talking about SS and how Smith is a SS here is we DO NOT use a traditional SS. We're not the type of defense that is using a Kam Chancellor type. Our safeties primarily run 2 deep. They're essentially interchangeable in our defensive scheme. I mean just look at who our starters are - Jaquan and Redwine. Which of those is a typical SS that plays close to the line? Neither! Because thats not what our defensive philosophy is. That is me entire point. A guy like Smith is not more valuable in our defense than Battle or Gant, and Stevenson and Richards are tier 1 players. Secondly as I have pointed out we already have a bunch of those "types" of safeties. Amari Carter, Derrick Smith, and even Romeo Finley/Robert Knowles if the staff doesn't push them to transfer. And there is no doubt Battle or Gant can play the type of SS we use.

Again, just to be absolutely clear, we do NOT use a traditional SS. In a class where we are already signing 4 LBs and when we have Carter, Smith, and a few other guys on the roster, AND when there are 4 Safety recruits that should absolutely be ranked above him (Stevenson, Richards, Battle, Gant) I'm saying Smith should not be THE priority right now.
 
tyrn said:
I guess you obviously don’t know the difference between a SS and a FS. We want 1 SS and 2 FS in this class.

Smith is a stud and I definitely want him in Surge19.

I do think that we have better options at CB than Couch who seems like a silent along with Smith.

Please go watch Smith’s film and honestly say that you don’t want him in this class. Diaz loves this kid’s game, and I’ll take his evals over anyone else here.

You also bring up the fact that we only want 4 LBs and you don’t care if he has the flexibility to play LB. Well if you haven’t noticed, Diaz is trying to go more 4-2-5, so having a stud SS that can line up at OLB is invaluable.

Not to mention the fact that I along with a few others always felt this LB class would be 4-5 players and this is a guy that has the versatility to play both OLB and SS in our scheme.
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The comment above this one I literally talk about why its not important to get a traditional SS type player. I do know the difference, I'm just not agreeing that it is neccessary when we already have Carter, Smith, Finley, Knowles, on the roster.

I agree we have better options at CB than Couch, including Elam who I really don't get why we aren't prioritizing.

I have watched Smiths film. You guys have managed to flip this pretty well to make it about me not liking Smith or wanting him. That is not the case, and has not been the case this entire time. I have repeatedly said I just don't want Smith to be THE priority over the other safeties we are recruiting. Thats it. Yall are trying to flip this to mean I think he's bad or something. I have just been saying there is a limit to the amount of players we can take in this class. And while 28 is the true maximum due to limits with Initial Counters, the fact is we are likely to take another class closer to 25/26 again. Those are just the facts. And if we are only taking 26, sorry Smith should not be the priority at DB.

Going to more of a 425 doesn't change anything, Secondly we have no reason to believe that our PRIMARY front will ever be a 425. In fact it is way more likely the 43 will remain our base defense. Will we go 425 when the offense has 3 wide? No ****, because the 425 is a nickel defense with an extra safety/cb instead of the 3rd olb. Secondly if we were switching to a 425, that would actually mean we'd want LESS LBs. If our base defense was only 2 LBs, why the **** would we need 4-5 Lbs in this class when we have 5-7 returning for next yr? If our base defense is a 425, we would only want like 7 LBs total on the roster per yr, and we'd want more safeties. so yeah if we are running a 425, Smith is a take, but that means another LB is not. The simple fact is Smith is 5th our of guys who could play safety for us - Stevenson > Richards > Battle > Gant > Smith. So If we get Smith, to me, it must mean We're not getting 2 of those other guys. Thats just the way I view it
 
calinative umstudent said:
The comment above this one I literally talk about why its not important to get a traditional SS type player. I do know the difference, I'm just not agreeing that it is neccessary when we already have Carter, Smith, Finley, Knowles, on the roster.

I agree we have better options at CB than Couch, including Elam who I really don't get why we aren't prioritizing.

I have watched Smiths film. You guys have managed to flip this pretty well to make it about me not liking Smith or wanting him. That is not the case, and has not been the case this entire time. I have repeatedly said I just don't want Smith to be THE priority over the other safeties we are recruiting. Thats it. Yall are trying to flip this to mean I think he's bad or something. I have just been saying there is a limit to the amount of players we can take in this class. And while 28 is the true maximum due to limits with Initial Counters, the fact is we are likely to take another class closer to 25/26 again. Those are just the facts. And if we are only taking 26, sorry Smith should not be the priority at DB.

Going to more of a 425 doesn't change anything, Secondly we have no reason to believe that our PRIMARY front will ever be a 425. In fact it is way more likely the 43 will remain our base defense. Will we go 425 when the offense has 3 wide? No ****, because the 425 is a nickel defense with an extra safety/cb instead of the 3rd olb. Secondly if we were switching to a 425, that would actually mean we'd want LESS LBs. If our base defense was only 2 LBs, why the **** would we need 4-5 Lbs in this class when we have 5-7 returning for next yr? If our base defense is a 425, we would only want like 7 LBs total on the roster per yr, and we'd want more safeties. so yeah if we are running a 425, Smith is a take, but that means another LB is not. The simple fact is Smith is 5th our of guys who could play safety for us - Stevenson > Richards > Battle > Gant > Smith. So If we get Smith, to me, it must mean We're not getting 2 of those other guys. Thats just the way I view it
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calinative umstudent said:
Bruh I understand the 425 defense and how to separate FS and SS. Also there has been absolutely no actual indication from Diaz that our primary defense will be switched to a 425. Will we run 425? no ****, its just a nickel defense. But will we run 425 when the offense is in 2 wide? Doubtful.

The problem with all you guys talking about SS and how Smith is a SS here is we DO NOT use a traditional SS. We're not the type of defense that is using a Kam Chancellor type. Our safeties primarily run 2 deep. They're essentially interchangeable in our defensive scheme. I mean just look at who our starters are - Jaquan and Redwine. Which of those is a typical SS that plays close to the line? Neither! Because thats not what our defensive philosophy is. That is me entire point. A guy like Smith is not more valuable in our defense than Battle or Gant, and Stevenson and Richards are tier 1 players. Secondly as I have pointed out we already have a bunch of those "types" of safeties. Amari Carter, Derrick Smith, and even Romeo Finley/Robert Knowles if the staff doesn't push them to transfer. And there is no doubt Battle or Gant can play the type of SS we use.

Again, just to be absolutely clear, we do NOT use a traditional SS. In a class where we are already signing 4 LBs and when we have Carter, Smith, and a few other guys on the roster, AND when there are 4 Safety recruits that should absolutely be ranked above him (Stevenson, Richards, Battle, Gant) I'm saying Smith should not be THE priority right now.
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Yo wassup. Just setting in from church. I get what your saying of what we have done in the past. Why do we play a non traditional SS right NOW and over the PAST two years? Because we didn’t have deployable strong safetie types AND Upperclassmen already in place at the safety positions.
That said the way they are focusing recruiting is what is telling us their intentions. They have brought in 4 athletic Box safeties in the last 3 classes. That compared to basically ONE traditional safety if you don’t count Jeff James who was a take only by name. And that that one safety is no longer here (Cedric Wright).

Also, since the Bermuda three almost EVERY LB we have gotten or gone after we’re or are former safeties/elite coverage LBs OR pure pass rushers with elite quickness and speed. This all lends itself to a largely more coverage centric attack, with players that can do everything, cover, tackle, rush.

This is to make it harder to identify coverage and easier to switch coverage and reduce certain substitution needs. I feel like everything there doing is showing us that, therefore the reasoning for a Smith type being a priority.
 
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Cali, you can't count Knowles and Finley. You have D Smith from 2017, and A Carter can play that role, too. But Carter is going to be the next man in after Johnson and Redwine. None of the guys from 2018 are in the same mold. So I don't see the argument we're overloaded there at all. We need 1 kids like Smith in this class.
 
PittsburghCane said:
Yo wassup. Just setting in from church. I get what your saying of what we have done in the past. Why do we play a non traditional SS right NOW and over the PAST two years? Because we didn’t have deployable strong safetie types AND Upperclassmen already in place at the safety positions.
That said the way they are focusing recruiting is what is telling us their intentions. They have brought in 4 athletic Box safeties in the last 3 classes. That compared to basically ONE traditional safety if you don’t count Jeff James who was a take only by name. And that that one safety is no longer here (Cedric Wright).

Also, since the Bermuda three almost EVERY LB we have gotten or gone after we’re or are former safeties/elite coverage LBs OR pure pass rushers with elite quickness and speed. This all lends itself to a largely more coverage centric attack, with players that can do everything, cover, tackle, rush.

This is to make it harder to identify coverage and easier to switch coverage and reduce certain substitution needs. I feel like everything there doing is showing us that, therefore the reasoning for a Smith type being a priority.
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huh??? Thats so wrong. What the **** Was Jamal Carter?.

I dont see Keontra Smith as a lb here...and his film shows him as an attacking tackling safety and not a cover guy. I finally agree with cali...i wouldnt prioritize him this early over the other elgible safeties. I liked his film though. But if he is the guy Manny wants **** go for it..because he hasnt been that involved in recruiting like i thought he initially would be. If he sees someone as a scheme fit hes the DC. He must know how he will deploy him.
 
grover said:
Cali, you can't count Knowles and Finley. You have D Smith from 2017, and A Carter can play that role, too. But Carter is going to be the next man in after Johnson and Redwine. None of the guys from 2018 are in the same mold. So I don't see the argument we're overloaded there at all. We need 1 kids like Smith in this class.
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Wanna bet money Knowles is still in the rotation in the back end. Think Carter and him will be the 2nd unit imo
 
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gogeta4 said:
huh??? Thats so wrong. What the **** Was Jamal Carter?.

I dont see Keontra Smith as a lb here...and his film shows him as an attacking tackling safety and not a cover guy. I finally agree with cali...i wouldnt prioritize him this early over the other elgible safeties. I liked his film though. But if he is the guy Manny wants **** go for it..because he hasnt been that involved in recruiting like i thought he initially would be. If he sees someone as a scheme fit hes the DC. He must know how he will deploy him.
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So the whole statement is wrong or just the fact that I missed a player? I get the idea that you don’t agree with anything I said, but I could be wrong. You usually have more info in your rebuttals so I’m hopeful you can give me more meat than an Al Golden recruit.
 
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M3N said:
Manny has been trying for 3 years to land a SS for his system. Gibson, Russell, and now smith.

Smith is a stud and take
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Not good when 2 of the 3 guys u named were dropped by us. You putting Smith on that cutting board if he commits.
 
Lexcane said:
You don't think Hall will take over the backup FS role and push Carter into the SS?
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Not early on i dont think. We rotate ALOT..so he may get thrown in to see how he performs.
I like Hall...but they seem to like Knowles as much as they trotted him out there...and he likely knows the defense better so these coaches "tend" to go with that early on..especially jumping out the gate with LSU. I didnt say i think Knowles was better or anything. I think Knowles is a good special teams guy..and a rotational guy you play in spurts depending on the match ups. If he has gotten better he will allow us to bring the younger guys along slowly and towards the middle to the end of the season ..UNLEASH.
 
PittsburghCane said:
So the whole statement is wrong or just the fact that I missed a player? I get the idea that you don’t agree with anything I said, but I could be wrong. You usually have more info in your rebuttals so I’m hopeful you can give me more meat than an Al Golden recruit.
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Just what was bolded. Because Jamal Carter is what you draw up when talking about a SS and hes had him. Also your comparison to Morgan Burnett is off as well...considering he is an acc guy so we saw alot of him...In college dude played that deep third and was one of the better coverage safeties in the nation.He was a ball hawk.

In the league he has changed his game and become a SS. That can hit more...but he was a cover guy in college at GT
 
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gogeta4 said:
Just what was bolded. Because Jamal Carter is what you draw up when talking about a SS and hes had him. Also your comparison to Morgan Burnett is off as well...considering he is an acc guy so we saw alot of him...In college dude played that deep third and was one of the better coverage safeties in the nation.He was a ball hawk.
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Bet. I def missed on Jamal Carter. It felt like he’d been gone forever. He is 100% the model SS tho. You think Derrick Smith, who’s been training in with LBs, could be that or you think he’s all LB?
 
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