How Bill Walsh evaluated receivers

[Torocane]

I'm just here to further knock 7 on 7 touch/flag as a primary source of evaluating players who are expected to play 11 on 11 tackle football.

You mean the quadruple move 10 second routes to don't transilate to the real game??? Lol

 

[mirvin88]

Can you send this to our coaches? They are recruiting the exact opposite of this. His top three things are agility, body control, and strength. Harley, pope, wiggins don't have any of those.

Devil's advocate, the new WRs they've recruited do. They need to get them on the field.

 

[gogeta4]

I'm just here to further knock 7 on 7 touch/flag as a primary source of evaluating players who are expected to play 11 on 11 tackle football.

Or How Al Golden did with his camps. Where guys got offered beating up on uber drivers and foot locker managers at these camps that the big dogs didnt attend.

How the Henley's, Ryan Mayes made it into classes.

The 2 down south wrs are here because of Baez/Cooney.

My prerequisite is what are you doing in pads.

Hence in this class im big on Malik Curtis and even the Plantation Wr. Im going to say it again Dee Wiggins and Mark Pope combined for like 40 catches their sr year. They won states but ..i want guys that have always been productive. Cant expect guys who never won 50/50 balls in pads to do so currently unless u really develop them. Likens needs 2 years with them,, they got the rest of the season but id like to see the young guys eat into reps

 

[BoxingRobes]

Or How Al Golden did with his camps. Where guys got offered beating up on uber drivers and foot locker managers at these camps that the big dogs didnt attend.

How the Henley's, Ryan Mayes made it into classes.

The 2 down south wrs are here because of Baez/Cooney.

My prerequisite is what are you doing in pads.

Hence in this class im big on Malik Curtis and even the Plantation Wr. Im going to say it again Dee Wiggins and Mark Pope combined for like 40 catches their sr year. They won states but ..i want guys that have always been productive. Cant expect guys who never won 50/50 balls in pads to do so currently unless u really develop them. Likens needs 2 years with them,, they got the rest of the season but id like to see the young guys eat into reps

I've made countless posts on this on this forum. Moreso than raw stats, its imperative that wide receivers have significant marketshare of the passing offense if they are worth anything...and the age they are able to do it at each level is also important. Myself and @Lance Roffers discussed it in the offseason and its even a good indicator for high school players. Not as good as for college to the pro game, but its solid enough to tell if someone is the real deal or they are one of these 7-on-7 types.

Our leading wide receiver has 15% of the passing offense and 0% of the receiving touchdowns as a junior. Literally, anyone can do that. Its replacement level. Just by proxy of being on the field someone can get those numbers. Our second leading receiver has a 14% share of the market of the passing offense and 0% of the receiving touchdowns. Again, replacement level and these are upperclassmen (I believe both Pope, Harley, and Wiggins are 20-21 years old, but someone probably has an accurate age on them). Thats not good and even if they were to become 20-25% marketshare players, as 21 year old players, thats still a late round draft pick at best.

There are some outliers that are late bloomers, sure...but man, if you're legit, everyone knows it pretty early into their careers and you produce in relation to the passing offense.

Our guys just...haven't.

 

[gogeta4]

I've made countless posts on this on this forum. Moreso than raw stats, its imperative that wide receivers have significant marketshare of the passing offense if they are worth anything...and the age they are able to do it at each level is also important. Myself and @Lance Roffers discussed it in the offseason and its even a good indicator for high school players. Not as good as for college to the pro game, but its solid enough to tell if someone is the real deal or they are one of these 7-on-7 types.

Our leading wide receiver has 15% of the passing offense and 0% of the receiving touchdowns as a junior. Literally, anyone can do that. Its replacement level. Just by proxy of being on the field someone can get those numbers. Our second leading receiver has a 14% share of the market of the passing offense and 0% of the receiving touchdowns. Again, replacement level and these are upperclassmen (I believe both Pope, Harley, and Wiggins are 20-21 years old, but someone probably has an accurate age on them). Thats not good and even if they were to become 20-25% marketshare players, as 21 year old players, thats still a late round draft pick at best.

There are some outliers that are late bloomers, sure...but man, if you're legit, everyone knows it pretty early into their careers and you produce in relation to the passing offense.

Our guys just...haven't.

Ultimately these guys really were suppose to be the role players to Brian Hightower but he flamed out. Im i n full agreement with you as well. Im a little higher on Dee Wiggins than the other 2, i still think its some untapped potential there. Harley is topped out and Pope hasnt got his confident as of yet.

 

[BoxingRobes]

Ultimately these guys really were suppose to be the role players to Brian Hightower but he flamed out. Im i n full agreement with you as well. Im a little higher on Dee Wiggins than the other 2, i still think its some untapped potential there. Harley is topped out and Pope hasnt got his confident as of yet.

Wiggins and Harley...man, the X and slot in Lashlee's offense is tailormade for these guys. The fact they are some JAGS or at worse, liabilities on offense is crazy to me.

For what its worth, Harley has a 20% (on the nose) share of receptions. A 20/14/0 share as an upperclassman is replacement level. A shame. I thought he'd really ball out this year.

 

[LuCane]

You mean the quadruple move 10 second routes to don't transilate to the real game??? Lol

Absolutely despise watching that and have posted about it for years. Do that **** in a game and my DE or LB is going to break your QB’s back.

 

[JBCanes-NC]

Quick 6 could fly.

 

[PIPO]

Or How Al Golden did with his camps. Where guys got offered beating up on uber drivers and foot locker managers at these camps that the big dogs didnt attend.

How the Henley's, Ryan Mayes made it into classes.

The 2 down south wrs are here because of Baez/Cooney.

My prerequisite is what are you doing in pads.

Hence in this class im big on Malik Curtis and even the Plantation Wr. Im going to say it again Dee Wiggins and Mark Pope combined for like 40 catches their sr year. They won states but ..i want guys that have always been productive. Cant expect guys who never won 50/50 balls in pads to do so currently unless u really develop them. Likens needs 2 years with them,, they got the rest of the season but id like to see the young guys eat into reps

What about Brashard? You feel he’s legit or questionable?

 

[Caneadian]

Bill Walsh could not coach in college football today.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I thought this was interesting. Goes to show how hard it is to use 7 on 7 camps and high school tape to evaluate WR... when kids are “high school open” and never have to really battle. Here is a passage from Bill Walsh’s book , for those interested.


“
The critical factor at wide receiver in my mind is agility and body control, the ability to change your body position often off the g round in order to get your hands in position to make the catch, ala Cris Carter of Minnesota. He would be the ideal in that respect.

That particular characteristic must be there for the receiver to be considered a Pro Bowl or a Hall of Fame player. You must have that to get to the highest tier of play.

Secondly is strength. That is somewhat related to girth. You need to power through players. When you are bounced into players you must be able to keep your feet, regain your balance and move into position and continue your pass route. So there has to be a certain amount of strength, as Jerry Rice or John Taylor demonstrated so often with the 49ers.

Hands are vital, but you almost have to assume that anyone you are considering is going to have outstanding hands. The difference between players is the agility and strength that was mentioned. That allows them to get into position to make the catch, to use their hands.

We can have drills where the receiver is running under the ball and making great catch after great catch. So people would assume that he has outstanding hands. But in reality, most catches are made with the ball and the defender closing at the same instant and the receiver having to reverse his body into a totally different position, get your hands up and catch the ball and be hit at the same moment. That is the key element in greatness -- agility and strength together.

Focus is critical here. The ability to find the ball, focusing on it and isolating it from everything else that's happening. When you are evaluating the tapes, you look for those plays that demonstrate those situations. You make a evaluation tape of those plays.

You establish the criteria that you require. Then you have a tape that demonstrates those requirements.

Pure speed is helpful, but full-stride speed becomes important. You would like a receiver with the ball in the open field to be able to keep the separation with the closing defenders until he gets over the goal line. He doesn't have to outrun them. He doesn't have to gain ground on them. He just has to get there before they do so he scores. So it doesn't have to be sprinters' speed, but full-stride speed.

A good example of that was Mike Quick when he was at Philadelphia. He had just an average 40 time, but once in the open field the long strides gave him the functional speed to stay away or get away from defenders. Dwight Clark, believe it or not, was never caught from behind once he got into full stride. Now he used the field to weave and bend, but he was never caught. And Jerry Rice will never be caught from behind by anyone if they both have the same, basic starting point.

Now there have been other people who have been Olympic sprinters who get tangled up and can't get back into full stride quickly enough and somebody just comes up and overwhelms them from out of nowhere. If they catch the ball and there is any contact at all, by the time they get back in running stride, the people have closed on them. Full-stride speed is the key.

Coaching becomes a factor in regards to their ability to evade at the line of scrimmage and their ability to read the form of coverage and their ability to change a pattern accordingly. That all comes through coaching, training and their focus in a game.

Durability is a factor because they are going to be hit a lot. And they are going to be hit when they are in a vulnerable position at times. And they are going to be hit by much bigger men when they catch a hook pattern against a linebacker.

Injuries are key because at this position injuries impair their ability to function at a high level, especially when compared to, say, an offensive lineman who can play damaged. Wide receivers are finely tuned athletes who need to be in top condition to perform well. If they are in any way damaged, it is difficult for them to function at a high level.”

-Bill Walsh

You establish the criteria that you require. Then you have a tape that demonstrates those requirements.

This. If you don’t know what you’re looking for, you’re lost.

Like Walsh’s view here, also. IMO it’s right.

 

["U"crazy]

Sneaky 5 star rated s**tty receier?

 

[skyman]

Ultimately these guys really were suppose to be the role players to Brian Hightower but he flamed out. Im i n full agreement with you as well. Im a little higher on Dee Wiggins than the other 2, i still think its some untapped potential there. Harley is topped out and Pope hasnt got his confident as of yet.

Thought so too with wiggin but after watching football all day saturday and seeing dudes make some type of effort to catch passes down field from NCST to UGA to Texam to OU, etc. And then seeing this dude get a db put his hand on his shoulder and he fold with no effort crying for mom dukes, aint no ******* way this dude can be a go to guy in big games.. just save him for crappy fsu go routes yearly

 

[Rellyrell]

I thought this was interesting. Goes to show how hard it is to use 7 on 7 camps and high school tape to evaluate WR... when kids are “high school open” and never have to really battle. Here is a passage from Bill Walsh’s book , for those interested.


“
The critical factor at wide receiver in my mind is agility and body control, the ability to change your body position often off the g round in order to get your hands in position to make the catch, ala Cris Carter of Minnesota. He would be the ideal in that respect.

That particular characteristic must be there for the receiver to be considered a Pro Bowl or a Hall of Fame player. You must have that to get to the highest tier of play.

Secondly is strength. That is somewhat related to girth. You need to power through players. When you are bounced into players you must be able to keep your feet, regain your balance and move into position and continue your pass route. So there has to be a certain amount of strength, as Jerry Rice or John Taylor demonstrated so often with the 49ers.

Hands are vital, but you almost have to assume that anyone you are considering is going to have outstanding hands. The difference between players is the agility and strength that was mentioned. That allows them to get into position to make the catch, to use their hands.

We can have drills where the receiver is running under the ball and making great catch after great catch. So people would assume that he has outstanding hands. But in reality, most catches are made with the ball and the defender closing at the same instant and the receiver having to reverse his body into a totally different position, get your hands up and catch the ball and be hit at the same moment. That is the key element in greatness -- agility and strength together.

Focus is critical here. The ability to find the ball, focusing on it and isolating it from everything else that's happening. When you are evaluating the tapes, you look for those plays that demonstrate those situations. You make a evaluation tape of those plays.

You establish the criteria that you require. Then you have a tape that demonstrates those requirements.

Pure speed is helpful, but full-stride speed becomes important. You would like a receiver with the ball in the open field to be able to keep the separation with the closing defenders until he gets over the goal line. He doesn't have to outrun them. He doesn't have to gain ground on them. He just has to get there before they do so he scores. So it doesn't have to be sprinters' speed, but full-stride speed.

A good example of that was Mike Quick when he was at Philadelphia. He had just an average 40 time, but once in the open field the long strides gave him the functional speed to stay away or get away from defenders. Dwight Clark, believe it or not, was never caught from behind once he got into full stride. Now he used the field to weave and bend, but he was never caught. And Jerry Rice will never be caught from behind by anyone if they both have the same, basic starting point.

Now there have been other people who have been Olympic sprinters who get tangled up and can't get back into full stride quickly enough and somebody just comes up and overwhelms them from out of nowhere. If they catch the ball and there is any contact at all, by the time they get back in running stride, the people have closed on them. Full-stride speed is the key.

Coaching becomes a factor in regards to their ability to evade at the line of scrimmage and their ability to read the form of coverage and their ability to change a pattern accordingly. That all comes through coaching, training and their focus in a game.

Durability is a factor because they are going to be hit a lot. And they are going to be hit when they are in a vulnerable position at times. And they are going to be hit by much bigger men when they catch a hook pattern against a linebacker.

Injuries are key because at this position injuries impair their ability to function at a high level, especially when compared to, say, an offensive lineman who can play damaged. Wide receivers are finely tuned athletes who need to be in top condition to perform well. If they are in any way damaged, it is difficult for them to function at a high level.”

-Bill Walsh

Bro, no cap...thank you for sharing this! This is absolutely spot on. I’ve been weary of the 7 on 7 camp warriors. There’s no hitting or physicality. So a kid could look like Superman in such a setting, and be Clark Kent in real life game settings.

 

[Rellyrell]

Harley is like the opposite of what he’s describing, his legs are going a million mph but his small strides don’t pull away from anyone..he’s the definition of a slow fast guy lol

I said before, Harley is the only guy I’ve ever seen where his legs move fast, but he’s going no where.

 

[TerragonSix]

with all the conversations about receivers this weekend, and last, I’ve been thinking a lot about Michael Irvin, Chris Carter, and Larry Fitzgerald, as well as many others. They all had that body control and used it to shield defenders and yet, though they had average to little 40 speed, you almost never saw anybody run them down.

Guys like Rice, Irvin, Fitz, and Chris Carter had one thing in common; work ethic.

They were students of the game in creating separation and hitting the weight room.

The old adage was 'game speed'.

Those guys also had some of the best concentration/focus I've ever seen as well. Not just getting creating separation and getting to the ball, but the focus to CATCH it, even when getting raped by the DB. They were going to catch the ball simply by outworking the other guy, nothing more.

Braxton had a bit of that. Wasn't fast, undersized. But there was a reason he was our kick returner. Excellent focus and concentration. That's pretty much kept him in the NFL so far.

 

[TheMatador]

I said before, Harley is the only guy I’ve ever seen where his legs move fast, but he’s going no where.

There was that little receiver we had from Texas during the Erickson era, Jonathan something. His feet moved real fast like some kind of insect but he never moved very far. We recruited so many jags for years at wr, big names in HS but average in college.

One hidden gem that we got was Yatil Green, better than that big name from Jacksonville, Andre Cooper, who was overrated. But Yatil could never stay healthy.

 

[Cribby]

I’ve guarded 4.4 guys that were fast and normally had sloppy routes. I’ve also guarded a 4.55-4.6 guy that I couldn’t guard. I was fd, his routes were so crisp, every route looked identical until the break. It wasn’t fair.

Speed is nice if you have great routes but most blazing fast guys don’t have that.

 

[Deleted member 26015]

Jerry Rice and John Gaylor going to work in practice. Rice had a 4.71 40, Taylor a 4.67 40.

 

[SouthsideAtl]

sneaky slow fast guy: ted ginn

Ted Ginn ain’t never been slow