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Goat

OriginalGatorHater said:
Exactly, great point as always bro. People just look at Brady, but don't look at the players around him on Offense and Defense or the coaches and their schemes. People don't want to talk about Cassell because it completely destroys the point they are trying to prove.
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Just want to point out.....Patriots scored 589 points in 2007......Brady got hurt and they scored 410 points the following year. Yes they won 11 games, but the offensive drop off was pretty significant.
 
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put it this way if u dont want to say hes the best qb ever fine, but u can say its the best HC and QB combo in history
 
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OriginalGatorHater said:
Exactly, great point as always bro. People just look at Brady, but don't look at the players around him on Offense and Defense or the coaches and their schemes. People don't want to talk about Cassell because it completely destroys the point they are trying to prove.
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Let's talk about Cassell. It only proves our point.

The Patriots missed the playoffs that year. Cassell left the Patriots, went to the Chiefs and made the playoffs with them.

Belichick has played 7 seasons without Brady. He has made the playoffs 1 time. One out of seven.

Brady is the GOAT QB. Belichick is not the GOAT coach. Don Shula is.
 
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DMoney said:
Let's talk about Cassell. It only proves our point.

The Patriots missed the playoffs that year. Cassell left the Patriots, went to the Chiefs and made the playoffs with them.

Belichick has played 7 seasons without Brady. He has made the playoffs 1 time. One out of seven.

Brady is the GOAT QB. Belichick is not the GOAT coach. Don Shula is.
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DMoney I know your smarter than me but that comparison is skewed a bit. Cassel led them to 11-5 no playoffs then the next season Brady led them to 10-6 playoffs. Tom Brady is GREAT I respect were respect is deserved. But no one in there right minds brings up Bill Russell as the Greatest NBA player of all time even though he has a ring on each finger. Brady is top 3-4 but he doesn't check every category there's room for improvement on his skill. But his style of play doesn't need him to be skillful, that's were you credit Belichick like it or not.
 
DavidMiami said:
DMoney I know your smarter than me but that comparison is skewed a bit. Cassel led them to 11-5 no playoffs then the next season Brady led them to 10-6 playoffs. Tom Brady is GREAT I respect were respect is deserved. But no one in there right minds brings up Bill Russell as the Greatest NBA player of all time even though he has a ring on each finger. Brady is top 3-4 but he doesn't check every category there's room for improvement on his skill. But his style of play doesn't need him to be skillful, that's were you credit Belichick like it or not.
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Brady’s numbers are crazy too. He doesn’t just have rings that’s where you and gator hater get confused. Russell doesn’t have the numbers that’s why he’s not considered anywhere near the Goat conversation
 
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DavidMiami said:
DMoney I know your smarter than me but that comparison is skewed a bit. Cassel led them to 11-5 no playoffs then the next season Brady led them to 10-6 playoffs.
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The AFC East’s records were skewed that year because they were cross-matched with a terrible NFC West. That’s why a Miami team that was 0-16 the year before won the division.

Another way to look at it is that New England went 16-0 the year before. So they were five losses worse with Cassel (who took the Chiefs to the playoffs) despite playing a very easy schedule.
 
DavidMiami said:
Name one QB that hasn't played good Under Belichick ever since hes been coaching The Patriots. Just 1
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Yes....Cassell was not good......

2007 Brady 4806 Yards 50 TD 8 Int 68.9 Comp% 117.2 Rating 88.5 QBR 8.3 Yrds/attempt 21 Sacks 589 Points Scored

Next Season, Entire same offense was back...Welker & Moss playing at Pro Bowl levels.....

2008 Cassell 3693 Yards 21 TD 11 Int 63.4 Comp% 89.4 Rating 65.3 QBR 7.2 Yrds/attempt 47 Sacks 410 Points Scored

21 to 47 sacks....Did the OLine forget how to block?
50 to 21 TD's.....Did WR/TE forget how to catch TD's

When Brady had talent like Manning or Montana......He put up Video Game numbers......Why didn't Cassell come close if it is all Belechik's Coaching?
 
DMoney said:
The AFC East’s records were skewed that year because they were cross-matched with a terrible NFC West. That’s why a Miami team that was 0-16 the year before won the division.

Another way to look at it is that New England went 16-0 the year before. So they were five losses worse with Cassel (who took the Chiefs to the playoffs) despite playing a very easy schedule.
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You seem to be the only rational Brady fan here. I asked a guy to tell me 1 QB that wasn't good under Bill Belichick in New England he brought up Cleveland Brown QBs. Bill Belichick worked his way back to being a head Coach in 2000. Brady got Drafted 1 year later. I'm not saying Brady isn't a top 5 ever QB because at the end of that day he worked his but off every day and sacrificed junk food and partying for Glory. What I'm saying is there are QBs that could do nothing eat fast food, Party all night and still get the job done because of there "Natural" ability. Stop comparing Cassel to Brady because Cassel isn't being mentioned as the GOAT. Bledsoe did horrible before Belichick became head coach. And if people keep saying Brady had no help than that 16-0 season is more historic than I thought. Bill Belichick drafts guys for what they are and uses there Strength to the teams Advantage. I cant think of one project player in New England. Just because he didn't have many stars( but he did have stars) doesn't mean a team full of players that play there role isn't enough. The 72 Miami Dolphins was a team full of Role Players but they are UNTOUCHED in history. I understand why everyone loves Brady so much but I see a couple flaws that Bill Belichick does his best to hide. Honestly Tom Bradys wife isn't my type I like a Healthy looking women but I understand why they praise her too. Just dont say she's the GOAT model because its disrespectful to all the other beautiful people in her profession
 
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HamburgerSV said:
yea because all I said was “5 rings” lol. Dude has GOAT numbers AND GOAT amount of rings AND super bowl appearances AND GOAT amount of game winning drives. GOAT is the guy who comes out on top when you take numbers, rings and performance in big games into consideration, I never said “5 rings enough said”. No one has a better combination of numbers, rings and big performances in big games so = GOAT.
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I disagree. GOAT=Best player of all time. Who would you pick if you were creating a fantasy team of greats throughout history. The guy could have 0 SB wins because he was on a team full of scrubs and still be the GOAT.
 
gruntking said:
Ok... so if there was a published qualifications check list for being Goat where do you think that SBs won would be. It seems to me that it's a stat that weighs heavily along with TD's, total yards passing etc. Our beloved J. Kelly shows up somewhere in the goat list for simply being in four consecutive SBs... an accomplishment that may never ever be equaled. Even when Marino was still the yardage king he still wasn't seen a "the goat" by most polls because of SBs won. And yes for every goat nominee there's a team around him that can be argued about... and as to how much it was a factor... but how much does that weigh in at the coronation?
I'd love to play Family Feud against you brother cause I know your *** is toast...lol.
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I don't think any of those metrics are that important for determining the GOAT. If your definition of GOAT is who was the most successful QB than SBs play a huge factor. However, if you are simply saying who is the best ever than none of those stats mean all that much. For example if Brady was drafted by the Browns in 2000 he never wins an SB. He is still just as good as he is now, but now all of a sudden he isn't in the GOAT conversation. I think to determine the GOAT you need to eliminate all outside factors and just figure out which QB had the best combination of Vision, football IQ, arm strength, accuracy, etc. That is the true GOAT. Basically if you plugged Montana, Unitas, Manning, etc all into the 2000 Patriots and had them play 20 seasons which QB would have ended up with the most SBs. Whoever that is, is the GOAT. I don't know who it is. It could be Brady for all I know, but that is my definition of the GOAT.

I am curious though. What changed your mind from yesterday when you said Brady was only arguably the best QB in recent times to your current opinion of him being the best player, hands down, in NFL history at any position.
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
I don't think any of those metrics are that important for determining the GOAT. If your definition of GOAT is who was the most successful QB than SBs play a huge factor. However, if you are simply saying who is the best ever than none of those stats mean all that much. For example if Brady was drafted by the Browns in 2000 he never wins an SB. He is still just as good as he is now, but now all of a sudden he isn't in the GOAT conversation. I think to determine the GOAT you need to eliminate all outside factors and just figure out which QB had the best combination of Vision, football IQ, arm strength, accuracy, etc. That is the true GOAT. Basically if you plugged Montana, Unitas, Manning, etc all into the 2000 Patriots and had them play 20 seasons which QB would have ended up with the most SBs. Whoever that is, is the GOAT. I don't know who it is. It could be Brady for all I know, but that is my definition of the GOAT.

I am curious though. What changed your mind from yesterday when you said Brady was only arguably the best QB in recent times to your current opinion of him being the best player, hands down, in NFL history at any position.
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Ok I see your point now....but it’s just not possible to determine that. I think Brady wins 3 in 4 years with the bronco teams Manning had (the one with top 5 defenses every year, the one that got to the divisional round with Tim MF Tebow, the one that won the Super Bowl the year Manning was one of the worst QB’s in the league) but theres no way I can say that as a fact. I think Marino throws for 60 TD’s a season with these new rules and wins a couple Super Bowls but I can’t say that as fact. Even judging players by arm talent is not enough because there’s soooo much more to QB play than that. I go by reality and what actually has happened and that’s why Brady is the GOAT to me and most. I respect your opinion. Good discussion
 
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HamburgerSV said:
Ok I see your point now....but it’s just not possible to determine that. I think Brady wins 3 in 4 years with the bronco teams Manning had (the one with top 5 defenses every year, the one that got to the divisional round with Tim MF Tebow, the one that won the Super Bowl the year Manning was one of the worst QB’s in the league) but theres no way I can say that as a fact. I think Marino throws for 60 TD’s a season with these new rules and wins a couple Super Bowls but I can’t say that as fact. Even judging players by arm talent is not enough because there’s soooo much more to QB play than that. I go by reality and what actually has happened and that’s why Brady is the GOAT to me and most. I respect your opinion. Good discussion
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I respect your opinion as well. I just think about the GOAT discussion in all sports as that type of lens. Who is the greatest in terms of physical and mental capabilities. Not just physical things but also things like being able to play under pressure, read defenses, calling audibles, field vision, being able to be a leader, lifting the teams morale, etc etc. Great discussion and glad we were able to see each others points.
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
I don't think any of those metrics are that important for determining the GOAT. If your definition of GOAT is who was the most successful QB than SBs play a huge factor. However, if you are simply saying who is the best ever than none of those stats mean all that much. For example if Brady was drafted by the Browns in 2000 he never wins an SB. He is still just as good as he is now, but now all of a sudden he isn't in the GOAT conversation. I think to determine the GOAT you need to eliminate all outside factors and just figure out which QB had the best combination of Vision, football IQ, arm strength, accuracy, etc. That is the true GOAT. Basically if you plugged Montana, Unitas, Manning, etc all into the 2000 Patriots and had them play 20 seasons which QB would have ended up with the most SBs. Whoever that is, is the GOAT. I don't know who it is. It could be Brady for all I know, but that is my definition of the GOAT.

I am curious though. What changed your mind from yesterday when you said Brady was only arguably the best QB in recent times to your current opinion of him being the best player, hands down, in NFL history at any position.
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Good evening OGH,
First let me explain about when I said (arguably) should be inserted. Below is the conversation:

OGH... "It's called having the best QB and OL in the nation. They could run Richts offense and put up numbers."
GK:... "You need to say (arguably) when you say Brady is the best qb. He isn't the best statistically, **** he's not even close. But the mutha-fvcker gets it done on the big stages... he plays with the biggest chip on a shoulder... the best money man in the NFL. As for his OL... they rule the trenches, amazing group of studs. Their defense is ******* amazing though... unsung heroes."

You nor I were talking about GOAT... we were talking about present day active QBs in the NFL. Another thing is that you can't rely on objective football analysis from partisan local fans... most will not allow themselves to remove their biases and give a fair judgement.... sort of like politics.
Yesterday there was a post that said "Fvck Brady", "fvck BB", fvck the Pats"... such a profound post, LOL... wtf! Football sadly brings out the worst in some people.
Listen brother, there isn't a published formula or a grading system to establish the arguable Goat designation... if there is please post it so we can all get enlightened. Also, in my opinion, you can't use "what ifs" or inserting specific players into other imaginary teams or situations and say that they would perform in a specific manner... and use that form of fantasy to evaluate a goat. Wait excuse me... you absolutely can do it but the point made is weak at best.
OGH... where's your tag team buddy tonight... I'm jealous dude, lol.
 
gruntking said:
Good evening OGH,
First let me explain about when I said (arguably) should be inserted. Below is the conversation:

OGH... "It's called having the best QB and OL in the nation. They could run Richts offense and put up numbers."
GK:... "You need to say (arguably) when you say Brady is the best qb. He isn't the best statistically, **** he's not even close. But the mutha-fvcker gets it done on the big stages... he plays with the biggest chip on a shoulder... the best money man in the NFL. As for his OL... they rule the trenches, amazing group of studs. Their defense is ******* amazing though... unsung heroes."

You nor I were talking about GOAT... we were talking about present day active QBs in the NFL. Another thing is that you can't rely on objective football analysis from partisan local fans... most will not allow themselves to remove their biases and give a fair judgement.... sort of like politics.
Yesterday there was a post that said "Fvck Brady", "fvck BB", fvck the Pats"... such a profound post, LOL... wtf! Football sadly brings out the worst in some people.
Listen brother, there isn't a published formula or a grading system to establish the arguable Goat designation... if there is please post it so we can all get enlightened. Also, in my opinion, you can't use "what ifs" or inserting specific players into other imaginary teams or situations and say that they would perform in a specific manner... and use that form of fantasy to evaluate a goat. Wait excuse me... you absolutely can do it but the point made is weak at best.
OGH... where's your tag team buddy tonight... I'm jealous dude, lol.
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That is why I am confused. If he isn't 100% the best now how can you say he is 100% the best of all time?

That said there is no concrete way to decide who is the GOAT. GOAT is the best player of all time. Not the most decorated. That means who is the absolute best player. The whole debate is subjective. No one can say with 100% certainty that someone is the GOAT. That is why the debate rages on. Usually when people talk about the GOAT(in basketball, baseball, football, etc.) the players get looked at in a vacuum. It doesn't matter about what they won because it is a team sport. The GOAT is the guy who has the best combination of Arm strength, accuracy, football IQ, leadership skills, etc. The GOAT could be on a team full of scrubs and win 0 SBs or a mediocre QB can get placed on a super team and win a bunch of SBs.

If your definition of GOAT is who is objectively the most decorated QB of all time. Then I would give you Brady as the winner. However, when you look at GOAT as the more traditional def. of greatest player of all time you need to use subjective means to figure.
 
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