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GOAT RB - Vilma tweet

OriginalGatorHater said:
Ya AP was a beast, but like you said wasn't as consistent as LT. Ricky Williams was another one that could have been a great if he just stuck with his craft.
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If I had 20 million dollars, I'd probably just wanna get high all day too.

Other interesting exclusions thus far as far as guys in the conversation for top 5:

Curtis Martin
Marshall Faulk (who was a BEAST)
Marcus Allen
Tony Dorsett

I don't think anyone would put Bettis in that conversation, even though he's top-10 in rushing yards. He was a blast to watch though.
 
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I’ve seen most of the guys being talked about but Sayers and Brown. I went to Oilers games as a young kid watching Earl Campbell run around or through defenders. His thighs were the largest I’ve ever seen, even today. But for my money I’d have to go Sanders. Pound for pound the greatest I have ever seen play.
 
CashMoneyCane said:
If I had 20 million dollars, I'd probably just wanna get high all day too.

Other interesting exclusions thus far as far as guys in the conversation for top 5:

Curtis Martin
Marshall Faulk (who was a BEAST)
Marcus Allen
Tony Dorsett

I don't think anyone would put Bettis in that conversation, even though he's top-10 in rushing yards. He was a blast to watch though.
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Oh ya, I am not bashing his decision at all. I just think that he could have been legendary status if he just spent his time training instead of getting baked. I mean who else could take a year off and just go camping and smoking no working out for a year and then come back and crush it in the NFL lol. That was crazy. I remember when it was going down and everyone was saying no way he could come back from that and compete on a high level.

Marshall Faulk is a great choice. Absolute beast
 
Emmitt Smith is not the GOAT, no.

Definitely a Top 10 RB, Gator hatred aside. Possibly Top 5.

1.) Jim Brown
2.) Barry Sanders
3.) Walter Payton
4.) Earl Campbell
5.) Eric ****erson
6.) Emmitt Smith
7.) John Riggins
8.) Marshall Faulk
9.) Marion Motley
10.) Bronco Nagurski

Honorable Mention: Larry Csonka.
 
The thing about Barry, that I don't think you can say about any of the others (perhaps short of Sayers, who I haven't seen much tape on), is that he just made the opposing defenders look SILLY on the regular. How many clips are there of him making a move and the would-be tackler literally losing sight of him, spinning around in a circle with his arms out, like where'd he go?
 
CashMoneyCane said:
He's #5 in all-time rushing yards, ahead of Brown, OJ, Campbell and Sayers.
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I hear you, but you can look at stats any way you want.
Tomlinson was VERY good.
He had 2 seasons where he averaged over 5 ypc and averaged 4.3 ypa for his career.

Now check these out:
OJ- 3 seasons over 5 ypc (1 over 6ypc), 4.7 ypc/career.
Brown- 5 seasons over 5 ypc, 5.2 ypc career.
Sayers- 3 seasons over 5 ypc, 5.0 ypc career.
Sanders- 5 seasons over 5 ypc (1 over 6 ypc), 5.0 ypc career.
That's some select company right there.

Campbell was an animal. He killed himself and every defender in his way when he ran.
He "only" had 1 year over 5 ypc, but averaged 4.3 ypc career.
He's the only guy in the group that LD has a shot to hang with IMO.

Great discussion though.
 
NJshoreCane said:
I hear you, but you can look at stats any way you want.
Tomlinson was VERY good.
He had 2 seasons where he averaged over 5 ypc and averaged 4.3 ypa for his career.

Now check these out:
OJ- 3 seasons over 5 ypc (1 over 6ypc), 4.7 ypc/career.
Brown- 5 seasons over 5 ypc, 5.2 ypc career.
Sayers- 3 seasons over 5 ypc, 5.0 ypc career.
Sanders- 5 seasons over 5 ypc (1 over 6 ypc), 5.0 ypc career.
That's some select company right there.

Campbell was an animal. He killed himself and every defender in his way when he ran.
He "only" had 1 year over 5 ypc, but averaged 4.3 ypc career.
He's the only guy in the group that LD has a shot to hang with IMO.

Great discussion though.
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I'm totally with you on this type of analytics and IMO don't think all-time yards are that great of a stat. Exactly my point on Emmitt. Yeah, he has the most yards and TD's. He also has the most carries and one of if not the best OL's ever.

On a purely academic level though, I'll take the RB who eludes defenders instead of running over them. You get more tired chasing then laying on the ground, and you stay healthier if you're not banging all game.
 
To make a point about John Riggins, you are automatically an awesome RB if you have a diesel horn sounding off every time you get the ball. ;)

I always preferred the crushing power back over the dancing one.

 
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TerragonSix said:
To make a point about John Riggins, you are automatically an awesome RB if you have a diesel horn sounding off every time you get the ball. ;)

I always preferred the crushing power back over the dancing one.

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Both styles elicit a different response. The elusive guys look superhuman and the bruisers just look like bad dudes. I think you can argue a few different bruisers but no one was CLOSE to Barry's elusiveness.
 
CashMoneyCane said:
Both styles elicit a different response. The elusive guys look superhuman and the bruisers just look like bad dudes. I think you can argue a few different bruisers but no one was CLOSE to Barry's elusiveness.
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Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. Your typical speedy RB has double the NFL lifespan of their power counterparts.

The kind of RB I'd want if I were a coach would be fundamentally sound, great blocker, patient, good vision and a strong punch through the tackles. If he happens to be a gamebreaker, great. But as Don Soldinger famously said, "Being fast is fine. But if you want to be on THIS team, you better **** well block."

Had Frank Gore not had two ACL tears, I think he would've been a much better version of Emmitt Smith because of his acceleration in the 2nd level. Frank was not afraid of contact, though he most certainly wasn't a bruiser. I would take Frank Gore over Barry Sanders. Barry had to be so elusive and break the plays because the Lions O-Line was one of the worst performing O-Lines ever.

But I think the complete package was a guy like Walter Peyton. He could do both, and both well.
 
Marcus Allen is the most complete running back I've ever seen. He gets lost in the conversation because he didn't exist in the internet era and because Al Davis basically took his prime.

Name the back that, as a package, runs in the open field, pass protects, gets open and catches out of the backfield, runs between the tackles, AND becomes a deadly short yardage back better than Allen.
 
rustywalkedaway said:
Marcus Allen is the most complete running back I've ever seen. He gets lost in the conversation because he didn't exist in the internet era and because Al Davis basically took his prime.

Name the back that, as a package, runs in the open field, pass protects, gets open and catches out of the backfield, runs between the tackles, AND becomes a deadly short yardage back better than Allen.
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The problem is, there has been a TON of great Running Backs. I mean, A TON. Same with WR's.

I mean, my list is merely the ones that have passed my eye test. And there is no doubt about it, Marcus Allen is one of the all time greats. Thinking about it, he'd probably replace John Riggins on my list.
 
TerragonSix said:
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. Your typical speedy RB has double the NFL lifespan of their power counterparts.

The kind of RB I'd want if I were a coach would be fundamentally sound, great blocker, patient, good vision and a strong punch through the tackles. If he happens to be a gamebreaker, great. But as Don Soldinger famously said, "Being fast is fine. But if you want to be on THIS team, you better **** well block."

Had Frank Gore not had two ACL tears, I think he would've been a much better version of Emmitt Smith because of his acceleration in the 2nd level. Frank was not afraid of contact, though he most certainly wasn't a bruiser. I would take Frank Gore over Barry Sanders. Barry had to be so elusive and break the plays because the Lions O-Line was one of the worst performing O-Lines ever.

But I think the complete package was a guy like Walter Peyton. He could do both, and both well.
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Great points across the board. For me, Gore had special vision, probably the best I've ever seen, and wasn't too far behind Barry on balance. Even going back to his freshman year, he had amazing patience. And then his work ethic is just legendary. But I wouldn't take him over Barry, personally (if Gore wasn't a 'Cane, of course).

Totally agreed on Peyton. Dude had everything. You rarely see fast, shifty guys who can lay the wood like that. Early AP had that too, IMO. I remember him as a freshman at OU and thinking he was the most complete RB I'd seen since Sweetness.
 
TerragonSix said:
The problem is, there has been a TON of great Running Backs. I mean, A TON. Same with WR's.

I mean, my list is merely the ones that have passed my eye test. And there is no doubt about it, Marcus Allen is one of the all time greats. Thinking about it, he'd probably replace John Riggins on my list.
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The other problem, observationally, is recency bias, in two ways. I didn't watch Jim Brown play, so he's not as significant to me. At the same time, offense in the NFL hadn't really evolved to throwing the ball to the halfback, in Brown's era.

I'd put Peyton up there with Allen as a complete back, but I don't know that he was really catching many passes.
 
TerragonSix said:
The problem is, there has been a TON of great Running Backs. I mean, A TON. Same with WR's.

I mean, my list is merely the ones that have passed my eye test. And there is no doubt about it, Marcus Allen is one of the all time greats. Thinking about it, he'd probably replace John Riggins on my list.
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Understood. For me, the term "great" of GOAT gets way overused. How do you define the position and who really provides those things at the highest levels? I'm looking for the total package.

Riggins was extremely productive, but he wasn't a great running back; he was a highly effective bulldozer behind a dominant offense line. E. Smith kind of fits in there, too, but with more explosion and wiggle (thought not a ton of either). Franco Harris wasn't great, by my standards, at anything. Same with Leveon Bell, despite all the talk about his patience. He is a very versatile back at a time when that is a huge asset and Pittsburgh backs tend to be stat monsters. OJ and **** were outstanding power gliders. Barry had ridiculous escapability. Earl, Eddie George, and AP hurt you and moved the chains, but were no threats to catch much. Payton is kind of in that group, though he was smaller than those guys. Faulk was the perfect fit in the Ram's offense, but he wasn't a short yardage machine. LT may be in the Allen conversation, at least for me. Curtis Martin may have been the slightly lesser version of those guys. Terribly under-rated. Bo was a comet; he blazed across and I'm still not really sure what I saw, but it was awesome.

I'd say lots of really good backs, but very few great backs.

I'll also say that a healthy Frank Gore would have been amazing. I think he might have gone down as the best runner I've seen, though I don't think he would have been the most complete running back.
 
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rustywalkedaway said:
Understood. For me, the term "great" of GOAT gets way overused. How do you define the position and who really provides those things at the highest levels? I'm looking for the total package.

Riggins was extremely productive, but he wasn't a great running back; he was a highly effective bulldozer behind a dominant offense line. E. Smith kind of fits in there, too, but with more explosion and wiggle (thought not a ton of either). Franco Harris wasn't great, by my standards, at anything. Same with Leveon Bell, despite all the talk about his patience. He is a very versatile back at a time when that is a huge asset and Pittsburgh backs tend to be stat monsters. OJ and **** were outstanding power gliders. Barry had ridiculous escapability. Earl, Eddie George, and AP hurt you and moved the chains, but were no threats to catch much. Payton is kind of in that group, though he was smaller than those guys. Faulk was the perfect fit in the Ram's offense, but he wasn't a short yardage machine. LT may be in the Allen conversation, at least for me. Curtis Martin may have been the slightly lesser version of those guys. Terribly under-rated. Bo was a comet; he blazed across and I'm still not really sure what I saw, but it was awesome.

I'd say lots of really good backs, but very few great backs.

I'll also say that a healthy Frank Gore would have been amazing. I think he might have gone down as the best runner I've seen, though I don't think he would have been the most complete running back.
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I think LT deserves to be in the conversation of completeness. What Peyton lacked vs. LT in pass-catching he made up a little with bruising, IMO. But there were a good few years when LT was absolutely dominating the NFL.
 
Personally I think Eric ****erson is criminally underrated when it comes to these conversations. What a talent! As far as the actual GOAT, that is a tough choice. I will say that I agree with the general consensus that Emmit Smith is NOT the GOAT. If you put me on the spot I would have to say Barry Sanders.
 
CashMoneyCane said:
If I had 20 million dollars, I'd probably just wanna get high all day too.

Other interesting exclusions thus far as far as guys in the conversation for top 5:

Curtis Martin
Marshall Faulk (who was a BEAST)
Marcus Allen
Tony Dorsett

I don't think anyone would put Bettis in that conversation, even though he's top-10 in rushing yards. He was a blast to watch though.
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Agree with Marshall Faulk being in the discussion for top 5.
 
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