FSU 2013 v. 2019 LSU

they averaged 51 and crab legs barely played in the 2nd half in most games. LSU has to stop a Heisman QB and 2 time pro bowl RB. Not happening. LSU defense was mediocre at best. It's just not a complete team. 2013 FSU is far more talented, theres likely 5 or 6 LSU players only playing on 2013 FSU. It's a mismatch.
I 100% agree with you the stats back up 2013 FSU being a much better Defense than 2019 LSU.

What's wildly skewing those numbers are the strength of the opponents those teams played that year.

2019 LSU won 46-41 at Alabama (LSU was up 33-13 at halftime)

My question would be
- what's the argument for LSU having a harder time with 2013 FSU's Offense than 2019 Alabama?

2019 Alabama Offense

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When your argument is based solely on 3 exceptional players who are all in the passing game it doesn't leave much margin for error. 1 missed assignment on the OL, 1 dropped pass, 1 overthrow loses the game. The more complete teams win games. 2013 FSU easily over 2019 LSU.
One of the most talented defensive teams at Alabama didn't stand a chance, but a team that couldn't defend Nick Marshall is stopping 2019 LSU?

Laughable. Keep dreaming.
2019 LSU has to stop 2013 FSU who averaged 51 points and it coulda been more because they were often ahead by 35-40 points by halftime. Thats you problem here. There's almost as potent offense coming at you and you have a mediocre defense. Huge mismatch.
 
they averaged 51 and crab legs barely played in the 2nd half in most games. LSU has to stop a Heisman QB and 2 time pro bowl RB. Not happening. LSU defense was mediocre at best. It's just not a complete team. 2013 FSU is far more talented, theres likely 5 or 6 LSU players only playing on 2013 FSU. It's a mismatch.
I 100% agree with you the stats back up 2013 FSU being a much better Defense than 2019 LSU.

What's wildly skewing those numbers are the strength of the opponents those teams played that year.

2019 LSU won 46-41 at Alabama (LSU was up 33-13 at halftime)

My question would be
- what's the argument for LSU having a harder time with 2013 FSU's Offense than 2019 Alabama?

2019 Alabama Offense

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2013 FSU was one of the all time great offenses, 51 points per game and since they were so far ahead pulled starters way earlier than 2019 LSU did with that c4ap defense. They'd carve up LSU with ease. Jimbo had weapons all over the place and a good OL.
 
The problem with the argument against LSU only having 3 players & having a "mediocre" Defense, is simply a lack of knowing.

NFL players on the 2019 LSU roster:

- QB Joe Burrow
- RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire
- RB Josh Williams
- WR Justin Jefferson
- WR Jamarr Chase
- WR Terrace Marshall JR
- WR Trey Palmer
- WR Racey McMath
- TE Thaddeus Moss
- TE Stephen Sullivan
- OG Damien Lewis
- OG Chasen Hines
- OG Ed Ingram
- OT Anthony Bradford
- OT Austin Deculus
- OT Saadiq Charles
- OC Lloyd Cushenberry III

Defense:
- LB Patrick Queen
- LB Jacob Phillips
- LB Damone Clark
- DE K'Lavon Chaisson
- DE Andre Anthony
- DT Rashard Lawrence
- DT Siaki Ika
- DT Tyler Shelvin
- DT Neil Farrell
- CB Derek Stingley Jr
- CB Kristian Fulton
- CB Cordale Flott
- CB Jay Ward
- S Jacoby Steven's
- S Kay Vincent Jr
- S Grant Delpit

And that's not including the undrafted guys who made rosters.

So again, pretending like 2019 LSU was just 3 players & 2013 FSU was this juggernaut is disingenuous.

Obviously, it's a hypothetical argument, but if you wanna actually compare the quality of players, 2013 the advantage at RB & LB.

Every other position, 2019 LSU players were better in college & better in the league.

2013 FSU is not beating 2019 LSU by no 2TD's. They barely beat a weak Auburn team with a RB for a QB & got absolutely demolished against Oregon in the playoffs.

2019 LSU steamrolled 2019 UGA, Oklahoma & Clemson, all teams with high caliber NFL players.
 
The problem with the argument against LSU only having 3 players & having a "mediocre" Defense, is simply a lack of knowing.

NFL players on the 2019 LSU roster:

- QB Joe Burrow
- RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire
- RB Josh Williams
- WR Justin Jefferson
- WR Jamarr Chase
- WR Terrace Marshall JR
- WR Trey Palmer
- WR Racey McMath
- TE Thaddeus Moss
- TE Stephen Sullivan
- OG Damien Lewis
- OG Chasen Hines
- OG Ed Ingram
- OT Anthony Bradford
- OT Austin Deculus
- OT Saadiq Charles
- OC Lloyd Cushenberry III

Defense:
- LB Patrick Queen
- LB Jacob Phillips
- LB Damone Clark
- DE K'Lavon Chaisson
- DE Andre Anthony
- DT Rashard Lawrence
- DT Siaki Ika
- DT Tyler Shelvin
- DT Neil Farrell
- CB Derek Stingley Jr
- CB Kristian Fulton
- CB Cordale Flott
- CB Jay Ward
- S Jacoby Steven's
- S Kay Vincent Jr
- S Grant Delpit

And that's not including the undrafted guys who made rosters.

So again, pretending like 2019 LSU was just 3 players & 2013 FSU was this juggernaut is disingenuous.

Obviously, it's a hypothetical argument, but if you wanna actually compare the quality of players, 2013 the advantage at RB & LB.

Every other position, 2019 LSU players were better in college & better in the league.

2013 FSU is not beating 2019 LSU by no 2TD's. They barely beat a weak Auburn team with a RB for a QB & got absolutely demolished against Oregon in the playoffs.

2019 LSU steamrolled 2019 UGA, Oklahoma & Clemson, all teams with high caliber NFL players.

IIRC, the LSU defense was really banged up early on and struggled. They got better later on as they got some guys back..
 
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2019 LSU has to stop 2013 FSU who averaged 51 points and it coulda been more because they were often ahead by 35-40 points by halftime. Thats you problem here. There's almost as potent offense coming at you and you have a mediocre defense. Huge mismatch.
Alright, I am so glad that data and math exist so I can shut this down once and for all.

1. LSU´s defense was not mediocre. They ranked 11th in Opponent-Adjusted-Efficiency (DFEI) - because, unlike FSU, LSU actually played potent offensive teams on their schedule. According to OFEI, LSU played 9th Texas, 11th Florida, 32nd Auburn, 2nd Alabama, 44th Ole Miss, 30th Texas A&M, 18th Georgia, 4th Oklahoma and 5th Clemson. Out of 15 opponents played, nine of them had Top 45 offensive units in the country, six of them were in the Top 20 and four of them were in the Top 10. And despite playing the 2nd-hardest schedule in the country on offense, their defense ranked 32nd in points allowed. Hardly "mediocre", so that statement is already bull**** to begin with.

2. Florida State, on the other hand, by the same metric choices, played 46th Boston College, 19th Clemson, 20th Miami, 42nd Duke and 9th Auburn. Not only did FSU play less good teams in absolute numbers, none of the teams even remotely match the firepower LSU had to face. In fact, FSUs biggest opponent was Auburn in the Championship game, with a QB who was a DB, no firepower in the receiving corps and a game that Auburn easily could have won. If anything, Florida States defense is gigantically overrated - as @Memnon proved by showing what happened when FSU played an actually good football team in Oregon a year later. 62nd hardest schedule.

3. Now lets look at the offensive numbers in OFEI. Once again, we split into the Top 50 section. LSU played 42nd Texas, 15th Florida, 3rd Auburn, 9th Alabama, 44th Ole Miss, 20th Texas A&M, 4th Georgia and 1st Clemson. They averaged 42,8 points facing eight Top 50 opponents, four of them in the Top 10, scoring 35+ points against everyone except Auburn. They faced the seventh-hardest schedule according to OFEI. Clearly an elite unit that is not only well-tested but performed all the way through the year.

4. Florida State in 2013, under those same clear rules that we have established, played 49th Pittsburgh, 18th Clemson, 36th Wake Forest, 4th Florida and 25th Auburn. Once again, not only less quality opponents, but also worse at the top. That sums up to be the 61st-hardest schedule of opposing defenses. Once again, a mediocre schedule. FSU scored 44,4 points per game in these matchups, so the difference between the dominant FSU facing mediocre competition and the completely overrated LSU Tigers who faced more elite competition is a mere 1,6 points - or a safety.

All of this yappity yap yap yap about mismatches only for math and data to prove a point that I could not have explained better even if I tried. Its easy to pull your starters when you are not playing anyone. Not only did the data clearly prove LSU to be the far superior team, it also proved that Florida State is gigantically overrated in the entire conversation.

Sources:

 
The problem with the argument against LSU only having 3 players & having a "mediocre" Defense, is simply a lack of knowing.

NFL players on the 2019 LSU roster:

- QB Joe Burrow
- RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire
- RB Josh Williams
- WR Justin Jefferson
- WR Jamarr Chase
- WR Terrace Marshall JR
- WR Trey Palmer
- WR Racey McMath
- TE Thaddeus Moss
- TE Stephen Sullivan
- OG Damien Lewis
- OG Chasen Hines
- OG Ed Ingram
- OT Anthony Bradford
- OT Austin Deculus
- OT Saadiq Charles
- OC Lloyd Cushenberry III

Defense:
- LB Patrick Queen
- LB Jacob Phillips
- LB Damone Clark
- DE K'Lavon Chaisson
- DE Andre Anthony
- DT Rashard Lawrence
- DT Siaki Ika
- DT Tyler Shelvin
- DT Neil Farrell
- CB Derek Stingley Jr
- CB Kristian Fulton
- CB Cordale Flott
- CB Jay Ward
- S Jacoby Steven's
- S Kay Vincent Jr
- S Grant Delpit

And that's not including the undrafted guys who made rosters.

So again, pretending like 2019 LSU was just 3 players & 2013 FSU was this juggernaut is disingenuous.

Obviously, it's a hypothetical argument, but if you wanna actually compare the quality of players, 2013 the advantage at RB & LB.

Every other position, 2019 LSU players were better in college & better in the league.

2013 FSU is not beating 2019 LSU by no 2TD's. They barely beat a weak Auburn team with a RB for a QB & got absolutely demolished against Oregon in the playoffs.

2019 LSU steamrolled 2019 UGA, Oklahoma & Clemson, all teams with high caliber NFL players.
They gave up 22 points a game. Mediocre defense
 
The problem with the argument against LSU only having 3 players & having a "mediocre" Defense, is simply a lack of knowing.

NFL players on the 2019 LSU roster:

- QB Joe Burrow
- RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire
- RB Josh Williams
- WR Justin Jefferson
- WR Jamarr Chase
- WR Terrace Marshall JR
- WR Trey Palmer
- WR Racey McMath
- TE Thaddeus Moss
- TE Stephen Sullivan
- OG Damien Lewis
- OG Chasen Hines
- OG Ed Ingram
- OT Anthony Bradford
- OT Austin Deculus
- OT Saadiq Charles
- OC Lloyd Cushenberry III

Defense:
- LB Patrick Queen
- LB Jacob Phillips
- LB Damone Clark
- DE K'Lavon Chaisson
- DE Andre Anthony
- DT Rashard Lawrence
- DT Siaki Ika
- DT Tyler Shelvin
- DT Neil Farrell
- CB Derek Stingley Jr
- CB Kristian Fulton
- CB Cordale Flott
- CB Jay Ward
- S Jacoby Steven's
- S Kay Vincent Jr
- S Grant Delpit

And that's not including the undrafted guys who made rosters.

So again, pretending like 2019 LSU was just 3 players & 2013 FSU was this juggernaut is disingenuous.

Obviously, it's a hypothetical argument, but if you wanna actually compare the quality of players, 2013 the advantage at RB & LB.

Every other position, 2019 LSU players were better in college & better in the league.

2013 FSU is not beating 2019 LSU by no 2TD's. They barely beat a weak Auburn team with a RB for a QB & got absolutely demolished against Oregon in the playoffs.

2019 LSU steamrolled 2019 UGA, Oklahoma & Clemson, all teams with high caliber NFL players.
Joe Burrow threw for 460 yards and the offense had 628 total yards against a defense that did not allow such numbers in eons prior. They steamrolled Alabamas offense a year earlier.

I have no idea what people smoke on here at times...
 
2019 LSU has to stop 2013 FSU who averaged 51 points and it coulda been more because they were often ahead by 35-40 points by halftime. Thats you problem here. There's almost as potent offense coming at you and you have a mediocre defense. Huge mismatch.
Alright, I am so glad that data and math exist so I can shut this down once and for all.

1. LSU´s defense was not mediocre. They ranked 11th in Opponent-Adjusted-Efficiency (DFEI) - because, unlike FSU, LSU actually played potent offensive teams on their schedule. According to OFEI, LSU played 9th Texas, 11th Florida, 32nd Auburn, 2nd Alabama, 44th Ole Miss, 30th Texas A&M, 18th Georgia, 4th Oklahoma and 5th Clemson. Out of 15 opponents played, nine of them had Top 45 offensive units in the country, six of them were in the Top 20 and four of them were in the Top 10. And despite playing the 2nd-hardest schedule in the country on offense, their defense ranked 32nd in points allowed. Hardly "mediocre", so that statement is already bull**** to begin with.

2. Florida State, on the other hand, by the same metric choices, played 46th Boston College, 19th Clemson, 20th Miami, 42nd Duke and 9th Auburn. Not only did FSU play less good teams in absolute numbers, none of the teams even remotely match the firepower LSU had to face. In fact, FSUs biggest opponent was Auburn in the Championship game, with a QB who was a DB, no firepower in the receiving corps and a game that Auburn easily could have won. If anything, Florida States defense is gigantically overrated - as @Memnon proved by showing what happened when FSU played an actually good football team in Oregon a year later. 62nd hardest schedule.

3. Now lets look at the offensive numbers in OFEI. Once again, we split into the Top 50 section. LSU played 42nd Texas, 15th Florida, 3rd Auburn, 9th Alabama, 44th Ole Miss, 20th Texas A&M, 4th Georgia and 1st Clemson. They averaged 42,8 points facing eight Top 50 opponents, four of them in the Top 10, scoring 35+ points against everyone except Auburn. They faced the seventh-hardest schedule according to OFEI. Clearly an elite unit that is not only well-tested but performed all the way through the year.

4. Florida State in 2013, under those same clear rules that we have established, played 49th Pittsburgh, 18th Clemson, 36th Wake Forest, 4th Florida and 25th Auburn. Once again, not only less quality opponents, but also worse at the top. That sums up to be the 61st-hardest schedule of opposing defenses. Once again, a mediocre schedule. FSU scored 44,4 points per game in these matchups, so the difference between the dominant FSU facing mediocre competition and the completely overrated LSU Tigers who faced more elite competition is a mere 1,6 points - or a safety.

All of this yappity yap yap yap about mismatches only for math and data to prove a point that I could not have explained better even if I tried. Its easy to pull your starters when you are not playing anyone. Not only did the data clearly prove LSU to be the far superior team, it also proved that Florida State is gigantically overrated in the entire conversation.

Sources:

22 points per game is mediocre defense
 
2013 FSU was one of the all time great offenses, 51 points per game and since they were so far ahead pulled starters way earlier than 2019 LSU did with that c4ap defense. They'd carve up LSU with ease. Jimbo had weapons all over the place and a good OL.
I'm in 100% agreement with you - 2013 FSU Offense was a machine and would put up big numbers on 2019 LSU

What I'm saying is:
FSU's Offense & Defense would look less dominant vs 2019 LSU's schedule
LSU's Defense would look much better vs 2013 FSU's schedule

2013 FSU Top 25 Wins
#2 Auburn
#8 Clemson
#25 Duke

2019 LSU Top 25 Wins
#2 Clemson
#4 Georgia
#6 Florida
#7 Oklahoma
#8 Alabama
#14 Auburn
#25 Texas
 
2019 LSU.

FSU appeared to be the more complete team; because having HOFs at QB, WR1, and WR2 is a cheat code and unprecedented. Also, LSU’s defense is better than given credit for. More on that in a bit. LSU ended their season like this:

LSU 50-7 A&M. The defensive coordinator from that game is now the A&M HC.

LSU 37-10 UGA. 37 points was more than double what anybody else scored on UGA except South Carolina, who beat UGA 20-17 in double overtime. Outside of a 31 point loss to Hugh Freeze in year 1, It is the largest margin of victory against any of Kirby’s UGA teams; LSU also beat UGA by 20 the prior year.

LSU 63-28 OU. Tied with TCU for holding OU to their lowest points scored on the year.

LSU 42-25 CLEM (defending national champions). 42 points were more than double anybody scored on Clemson besides Ohio State, who lost to Clemson 23 to 29.


LSU had 32 guys drafted off of that team; including 14 in 2020. FSU had 23, including 7 in 2014. Both Ramsey and Stingley Jr were true freshmen on their respective teams. Both DCs became HCs. The biggest difference is FSU had 11 guys get drafted in 2015 and 2 in 2016 while LSU had 6 in 2021 and 10 in 2022. LSU’s team was well-around just much less experienced than FSU’s who had more upperclassmen.

NINE of the sixteen quarterbacks LSU faced were drafted: Sam Ehlinger, Jordan Love, Bo Nix, Kyle Trask, Tua, Kellen Mond, Jake Fromm, Trevor Lawrence, and Jalen Hurts. 6 of them are still in the NFL.

TWO of the fourteen quarteracks FSU faced were drafted: Tom Savage and Tahj Boyd.
They played Maryland w/ Stefon Diggs; however he had nobody to throw the ball to him.

The Auburn team FSU played beat Alabama in the regular season; so did the Auburn team LSU played. The ‘19 Auburn team beat a 12-2 Cristobal Oregon team that was a championship contender with an elite quarterback in Herbert. LSU beat seven top ten teams in ‘19.

Where i believe FSU deserves additional credit for is their backup quarterback (Jake Coker) winning a national championship with Alabama, after many proclaimed their run was over after losing four games in two years to Auburn, Oklahoma, Ohio State and Ole Miss. not sure how I’d quantify that, tho, with respect to the 2013 team itself. It just adds to their prestige imo.
Bumping this

LSU played nine NFL QBs and FSU played two NFL QBs. Of course the LSU defense is going to give up more points. They held OU and UGA to their lowest points scored on the season. Outside of his first year, Kirby Smart has never suffered a larger defeat than to the 2019 LSU team. LSU’s roster had 8 more draft picks, including double the amount (7) FSU had in the immediate aftermath.

2019 LSU has at least three HOFs, maybe four with Stingley Jr; 2013 FSU has a possible, probably likely, one in Jalen Ramsey.

Patrick Queen is a 2x pro-bowler and 1x all-pro. Winston made one pro-bowler. Devonta Freeman made two pro-bowls and one all-pro team. LB Telvin Smith made one all-pro team and a pro-bowl team; was 1x 2nd team all-acc at FSU in 2013.

FSU Draftees Round Breakdown: 1st (QB, WR, G, CB); 2nd (CB,SAF, KICKER, DT, DT, DE, DE); 3rd (CB, SAF); 4th (C, RB, G); 5th (WR, RB, LB, LB); 6th (CB, TE); 7th (G).

NO drafted OTs. 10 offensive players drafted, one S/T KICK, and a dozen defensive players drafted. and Kermit WR, who went UDFA, led the NCAA in KOR average.

16 former players signed as UDFAs: 4 WRs, 2 RBs, 1 FB, 1 OL, 3 LB, 4 DL, 1 DB, and FSU obviously had the better backup qb.

LSU Draftees Round Breakdown: 1st (CB, WR, QB, WR, OLB, LB, RB); 2nd (OG, WR, CB, SAF); 3rd (RB, CB, ILB, C, G ); 4th (SAF, OG, DT, K, DT, DT, OT), 5th (LB); 6th (OG, OT, SAF/LB, WR, LS); & 7th (EDGE, DB, TE). 15 offensive players drafted, and 15 defensive players drafted, and 2 S/T.


Doesn’t list all the UDFAs; had 7 in 2020. Additionally, i know at least one DT who transferred to Baylor then was drafted in the 3rd round. Might be others out there too.

Clemson beat A&M 24-10. LSU beat A&M 50-7. FSU and LSU both beat Auburn teams who beat Alabama that year; 2019 Auburn also beat a 12-2 Oregon team.

Minnesota went 11-2 and finished ranked tenth. They beat Georgia Southern 35-32 at home. LSU beat GA S. 55-3. LSU beat teams who finished the year ranked 25th, 14th, 8th, 7th, 6th, 4th, and 2nd. LSU faced an eleven win UF team compared to a four-win one that even Al Golden could beat. 2013 FSU beat teams who finished ranked 2nd, 8th, and 23rd.


2013 FSU beat three teams w/ eight regular season wins: Miami, Duke, Clemson and Auburn. 2019 LSU beat seven teams w/ eight regular season wins: Texas, UF, Auburn, Alabama, UGA, OU, and Clemson. 2019 LSU played one .500 regular season team (Mississippi State), and three below .500 (Arkansas, Ole Miss, and Vandy). 2013 FSU played two .500 regular season teams (Pittsburgh and Syracuse) and five below .500 (Idaho, UF, Wake Forest, NC State, Nevada)

Clearly LSU and it’s not that close. Half of FSU’s schedule was .500 or worse in the regular season. One FCS game for each team, and Two more of FSU’s opponents finished 7-6. For a third time, LSU faced nine NFL quarterbacks compared to two: Tom Savage and Tahj Boyd for FSU.

That said, FSU was one of the better champions and bests the three Alabama champions before them, the 2015 Alabama team, 2010 Cam Newton Auburn team, 06 UF yes yet the 08 UF is a tossup, They are fairly equal to the USC / LSU / Texas champions of the 00s (not the 2007 LSU squad tho). Probably better than the first Clemson champion yet not the second one. Them against the 2017 Alabama team would be interesting, i think FSU could win but it’d be close. The 2020 Alabama team, idk. The 2014 Ohio State team? Idk. The 2024 Ohio State team, yeup. Better than Michigan in ‘23 and ‘21 UGA; ‘22 UGA I’m not so sure.
 
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