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DAILY DEBATE: Who is the best LB in Miami history?

TheOriginalCane said:
Nope. Not buying into that nonsense about how you can't compare passing games from 20-30 years ago. Using 2024 as the baseline, 20 years ago was 2004 and 30 years ago was 1994.

First, the QBs. We can all agree that Cam Ward, for all purposes, is a statistical outlier in his one year at Miami, in every sense of the word.

I'm using yards per game to eliminate differentials between years-played and games-played-per-year. Yards per game is a good measure of the production of each QB across a career.

But look who is #3. Bernie Kosar. From 40 years ago. #6 is Ken Dorsey, from 25 years ago. #8 is Brock Berlin, from 20 year ago. So to say that these "recent" guys (Cam Ward excluded, of course) would "crush" the older guys is wrong.

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Then look at WRs. Unfortunately, I don't have per-game averages, but we can still draw some valid conclusions.

Of the Top 20 all-time Miami receivers, 18 are WRs and 2 are TEs.

Once you get past Xavier, the next FOUR are "old-timers" who played 25-40 years ago. So if we WERE ABLE TO COMPUTE the yardage-per-game stats, Santana and Reggie and Michael and Lamar would likely BENEFIT, as they played before the 12-game regular season was implemented in 2006.

And the same is true for Andre Johnson and Downtown Eddie Brown and Wesley Carroll and Larry Brodsky and Randal Thrill Hill and Chris T. Jones (not to be confused with Chris C. Jones).

That means that 10 of the top 18 all-time UM WRs by yardage are old-timers.

So, no, I'm not going to downgrade Xavier for "cheap stats" or "cheap records". Yes, last year he played with a statistical outlier (Cam Ward). But Xavier put up his numbers with QBs good (Cam) and bad (everyone else). He did most of his statistical damage over 2 years (as many old-timey WRs did). So I'm not going to pretend that Xavier's stats "crush" everyone else's over time. It is a very fair comparison to look at Xavier side-by-side with the other UM great WRs.

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A lot of great data there…

Santana and Reggie playing at the exact same time but Santana has 37 more yards on 30 less catches 😳

If X doesn’t play a 5th year he’s somewhere around Dre and Allen Hurns’ numbers which is still pretty **** good.

And Clive statistically is the best TE to play at UM. Seems like I should’ve known that but I didn’t.
 
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FuriousStyles said:
See… that’s why I like you @TheOriginalCane, lol.

But seriously, I already looked and saw those numbers. And I wasn’t trying to be a d*ck and diminish Dan to lift up Ray because I’m a fan of both and they are both Canes. It’s just the argument of Dan having better numbers which is why he was the better LB wasn’t jiving with me for the exact reasons you laid out. Let the argument for Dan be about him playing the position better based on what people saw… watched with their own eyes. And if that’s what anyone believes then just say that. But comparing numbers for two LBs who played 3 yrs vs 4 yrs would be no different than comparing a WR who played here 5 yrs vs the others who played either 3 or 4 years.
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That's why I looked at it year-by-year.

Dan and Ray had the commonality of starting AS FRESHMEN at UM. That is not very common for LBs.

They also had the commonality of having INCREDIBLY similar "per-year" numbers.

Finally, they had the commonality of playing nearly back-to-back (and would have done so, had Ray come back for his senior season).

As I said, they are 1A and 1B, in every appreciable way. The both played LB spectacularly at UM. The only real differential is that Ray was a bit bigger, thus his hits were a bit harder and his career durability was stronger.

All I'm saying is that I'm not "knocking 25% off" of Ray for skipping his senior year. Dan/Ray are 1A/1B on an even field.

And I strongly believe that if Ray Lewis had played for Miami in 1996, we would have gone 11-1 and won the Big East. No way in **** do we lose to ECU or VaTech. Then, depending on how the bowl games fell, we could have won another championship. The top FIVE teams in 1996 all had one loss.

And before anyone gives me the "but we lost to F$U" line, SO DID THE GATORS. And The Gator won the national championship in 1996.

**** The Gator. And **** the SemenHoles.
 
FuriousStyles said:
A lot of great data there…

Santana and Reggie playing at the exact same time but Santana has 37 more yards on 30 less catches 😳

If X doesn’t play a 5th year he’s somewhere around Dre and Allen Hurns’ numbers which is still pretty **** good.

And Clive statistically is the best TE to play at UM. Seems like I should’ve known that but I didn’t.
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Only thing I'll say about the "fifth year" is that back in the day, the redshirt year was strict, people just didn't really play (the coaches took no chances).

I'm not gonna knock Xavier for the 2020 year, which was also the COVID year. He only had 1 catch for 12 yards in 2020, so he'd still have the records if you only counted 2021-2024.

****...could Xavier have come back for another year? Dammmmnnnnnnn...
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Only thing I'll say about the "fifth year" is that back in the day, the redshirt year was strict, people just didn't really play (the coaches took no chances).

I'm not gonna knock Xavier for the 2020 year, which was also the COVID year. He only had 1 catch for 12 yards in 2020, so he'd still have the records if you only counted 2021-2024.

****...could Xavier have come back for another year? Dammmmnnnnnnn...
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I thought X played in 6-7 games in 2020? So they essentially burned a redshirt year for him to only get one catch for 12 yards. Which would’ve ****ed me off.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Nope. Not buying into that nonsense about how you can't compare passing games from 20-30 years ago. Using 2024 as the baseline, 20 years ago was 2004 and 30 years ago was 1994.

First, the QBs. We can all agree that Cam Ward, for all purposes, is a statistical outlier in his one year at Miami, in every sense of the word.

I'm using yards per game to eliminate differentials between years-played and games-played-per-year. Yards per game is a good measure of the production of each QB across a career.

But look who is #3. Bernie Kosar. From 40 years ago. #6 is Ken Dorsey, from 25 years ago. #8 is Brock Berlin, from 20 year ago. So to say that these "recent" guys (Cam Ward excluded, of course) would "crush" the older guys is wrong.

View attachment 326472

Then look at WRs. Unfortunately, I don't have per-game averages, but we can still draw some valid conclusions.

Of the Top 20 all-time Miami receivers, 18 are WRs and 2 are TEs.

Once you get past Xavier, the next FOUR are "old-timers" who played 25-40 years ago. So if we WERE ABLE TO COMPUTE the yardage-per-game stats, Santana and Reggie and Michael and Lamar would likely BENEFIT, as they played before the 12-game regular season was implemented in 2006.

And the same is true for Andre Johnson and Downtown Eddie Brown and Wesley Carroll and Larry Brodsky and Randal Thrill Hill and Chris T. Jones (not to be confused with Chris C. Jones).

That means that 10 of the top 18 all-time UM WRs by yardage are old-timers.

So, no, I'm not going to downgrade Xavier for "cheap stats" or "cheap records". Yes, last year he played with a statistical outlier (Cam Ward). But Xavier put up his numbers with QBs good (Cam) and bad (everyone else). He did most of his statistical damage over 2 years (as many old-timey WRs did). So I'm not going to pretend that Xavier's stats "crush" everyone else's over time. It is a very fair comparison to look at Xavier side-by-side with the other UM great WRs.

View attachment 326473
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You don’t believe that Miami’s choice in offensive style negatively impacted the overall passing game numbers over the last 20 years? It’s no secret that we were running outdated pro style offensive systems that didn’t take advantage of modern passing game concepts and rule changes until the 2020’s. Not to mention, the general talent level around the program fell off a cliff, especially offensively the last 20 years. We are one of the few teams that still had offensive record holders from 30 or even 40 years ago. Almost everyone else has been shattering offensive records in the modern era.


Let’s put statistics aside. Which of this group would you place below Restrepo on an All Time list? Andre Johnson, Michael Irvin, Eddie Brown, Santan Moss or Reggie Wayne?

Top 10 yes. Top 5, sorry not for me.
 
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Coach Macho said:
Dan Morgan is the most decorated Linebacker in college football history.
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If people just look at the stats, he is the obvious choice. However, if you watched the 1999 Canes, Nate Webster was the Alpha of the entire team and easily the best LB on the team. If he hadn't sent that **** fax, he would have gone down as the LB goat, we would have not lost to Washington and had another title.
 
SFbayCane said:
I feel like going on...

Here's two more factually accurate statements that could only be true at The U:

Statement #1: Michael Irvin (who wore #47) is the greatest Miami Hurricane of all-time.

Statement #2: Ottis Anderson is the greatest Miami Hurricane to ever wear jersey #47.
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C'mon man...stop.
I can mentally "see" math and 3D space.
I'm mentally blind when it comes to English word salad.
 
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SFbayCane said:
DUDE! I spent like 15 minutes trying to come up with a single player of note who wore #35. I thought you were gonna regale me with some hidden Canes knowledge from the 1940's. lol
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Did my user name not give you a clue that I might be a real putz? Spoiler alert - I AM!

I'm glad you got a laugh out of it. Life needs more of it.
 
Fly1 said:
I love Dan….but it’s Ray

I still remember watching the 1993 game at Colorado

That’s where Ray Lewis showed up….and there was a massive fight
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My sentiments exactly. Love Dan, but Ray was actually better.

Yes, Dan was more decorated and had better all time statistics. Also played one more year.

Give both Dan and Ray the same teammates and who do you want at middle linebacker in any situation? This isn’t a knock on Dan, but the answer is Ray. It’s not Ray by a mile, but it’s clearly Ray. I think Ray’s college career is overshadowed by his NFL career, but he was one of the best to do it at the college level also.
 
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