forums

Breaking Down Shannon Dawson

mossmadness said:
Total defense is a dumb metric.

I’ve already admitted that the sheer volume could go up, due to the sheer volume of plays being run.

But that’s not the same thing as the *quality* of your defense being negatively impacted.

You get that, right? It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.

If I give up a TD once ever 4 drives before my offense switched to a fast paced offense.

It might be true that I give up more TDs in a game if my offense goes tempo.

But that doesn’t mean I’m still not giving up a TD once every 4 drives. The quality of my defense is just as good.

It’s just pure increase in plays run.

I mean, look at the teams on that list. They arent usually defensive powerhouses, regardless of the offensive system.
Click to expand...

ComfortableAffectionateGalapagosmockingbird-max-1mb.gif
 
Advertisement
Hurracanes said:
Tempo absolutely hurts your defense. If your offense can't move the chains or scores too quickly, it destroys your defense because they can't stay off the field. That is why most programs who run tempo have ****** defense's..
Click to expand...

as has been pointed out by others as well...most of your defensive guys cover on special teams so along with some of the 3 and outs your guys on defense are gassed covering punts or kickoffs if you do score quickly.

Tempo is fine in situations, especially when you have a defense on their heels and keep them from subbing; but sometimes you have to let off the gas so your defense can rest and regroup
 
Salt said:
as has been pointed out by others as well...most of your defensive guys cover on special teams so along with some of the 3 and outs your guys on defense are gassed covering punts or kickoffs if you do score quickly.

Tempo is fine in situations, especially when you have a defense on their heels and keep them from subbing; but sometimes you have to let off the gas so your defense can rest and regroup
Click to expand...
The "their Defense were bad because they are bad" is such a lazy take it is absurd. Go back the last 10 years and you'll see the same trend but i guess they were just bad defense's.
 
5NC4 said:
Here you go man. Did the home work for you. Here are the last 22 national champions and not a **** one of them ran full time no huddle. Every last one of them use "situational tempo" and not a single one runs full-time no huddle hyper speed spread. Not a **** one of them!

2022GeorgiaCFP
2021GeorgiaCFP
2020AlabamaCFP
2019LSUCFP
2018ClemsonCFP
2017AlabamaCFP
2016ClemsonCFP
2015AlabamaCFP
2014Ohio StateCFP
2013Florida StateBCS
2012AlabamaBCS
2011AlabamaBCS
2010AuburnBCS
2009AlabamaBCS
2008FloridaBCS
2007LSUBCS
2006FloridaBCS
2005TexasBCS
2004Southern CaliforniaBCS
2003LSU, Southern CaliforniaBCS, AP, FWAA
2002Ohio StateBCS
2001Miami (Fla.)BCS
2000OklahomaBCS

On top of it all, do any of them play a resemblance of defense? What is exactly the reason absolutely no team that runs that type of offense has ever won a championship in college football? Explain this to me since you act like you know more about football than everybody else you are arguing with.

I can go back another 100 years if you want.

I will ask you again. Do you think Mario's goal is to win championships or appease you? Also, is your goal to have a championship winning team or a fancy offense?

I am going to give you a very simple answer to championship winning football that you should abide by with your thought process on O. "Situational time management" on offense is the only way to win CHAMPIONSHIPS due to playing good defense as well, to go along with good offense.
Click to expand...

The bottom three were painful to read. We got ******* screwed in our asses big time. ****es me off. Sorry, just ****es me off.
 
mossmadness said:
Most programs that run tempo have **** defenses because they have **** defenses. The first programs to adopt tempo were the ones that needed a schematic competitive advantage, because they sucked.

But it’s not true that it “destroys your defense.”

When you adjust for pace of play, there are teams that run tempo that have fine defenses. Or at least the level of defense within their historical average.

Tennessee had the 48th ranked F+ defense in 2020 (the year before going tempo, and instead running Chaney’s offense that is intended to help out the defense by controlling the line of scrimmage and clock).

55th in 2021.

29th in 2022.

Tempo did not hurt their defense. Their defense actually made a huge improvement as Heupel got his tempo based offensive machine fully clicking.

Which is pretty easy to understand. If tempo gives offenses an advantage, then it’s just as likely to offset whatever bad spots you think it puts the defense in, by completely bombing the other team with points. Thereby taking the team out of what it ideally wants to do. Which makes it easier on your defense.

Forcing Mark Stoops to have to throw the football to keep up with your tempo scoring offense, helps your defense a ton.
Click to expand...
You are deflecting dude.

Full time no huddle teams have crappy defenses and do not win championships period……point blank!
 
Hurracanes said:
Below is a list of the 10 fastest teams in 2022 (according to 24/7) with their Defensive rankings (according to NCAA):
Indiana (Total Defense # 119)
SMU (Total Defense #112)
Ole Miss (Total #75)
Georgia State (Total Defense #84)
Oklahoma State (Total Defense #115)
Tennessee (Total Defense #91)
Central Michigan (Total Defense #62)
Texes Tech ( Total Defense # 108)
Georgia Southern (Total Defense #129)
Ball State ( Total Defense #82)

I guess that is a huge coincedence....
Click to expand...
Total defense isn’t a good way to evaluate defense on its own
 
5NC4 said:
Here you go man. Did the home work for you. Here are the last 22 national champions and not a **** one of them ran full time no huddle. Every last one of them use "situational tempo" and not a single one runs full-time no huddle hyper speed spread. Not a **** one of them!

2022GeorgiaCFP
2021GeorgiaCFP
2020AlabamaCFP
2019LSUCFP
2018ClemsonCFP
2017AlabamaCFP
2016ClemsonCFP
2015AlabamaCFP
2014Ohio StateCFP
2013Florida StateBCS
2012AlabamaBCS
2011AlabamaBCS
2010AuburnBCS
2009AlabamaBCS
2008FloridaBCS
2007LSUBCS
2006FloridaBCS
2005TexasBCS
2004Southern CaliforniaBCS
2003LSU, Southern CaliforniaBCS, AP, FWAA
2002Ohio StateBCS
2001Miami (Fla.)BCS
2000OklahomaBCS

On top of it all, do any of them play a resemblance of defense? What is exactly the reason absolutely no team that runs that type of offense has ever won a championship in college football? Explain this to me since you act like you know more about football than everybody else you are arguing with.

I can go back another 100 years if you want.

I will ask you again. Do you think Mario's goal is to win championships or appease you? Also, is your goal to have a championship winning team or a fancy offense?

I am going to give you a very simple answer to championship winning football that you should abide by with your thought process on O. "Situational time management" on offense is the only way to win CHAMPIONSHIPS due to playing good defense as well, to go along with good offense.
Click to expand...
2019 LSU, both Clemson teams and Urban’s OSU teams all ran no huddle pretty exclusively. Remember when Saban was trying to get the rules changed to outlaw it? It’s a way to gain an advantage. Especially for a team that might not have the offensive line to just pound the ball at a slow pace. Clemson didn’t beat Alabama for the title twice by playing keep away and milking the clock. They wore out the bigger, stronger Alabama players by not allowing them to take a break between plays. The teams that go hyper fast are usually trying to compensate for a talent disadvantage but even the most talented teams can gain an advantage by going at a fast pace. For me the sweet spot is probably in that 72-75 plays per game area. You want to be able to go fast when you need to but take it down a notch if you’ve got a big lead. The teams running 80-85 plays aren’t usually blowing teams out so they never take their foot off the pedal.

Also, total defense is an outdated metric. It doesn’t really define the actual effectiveness of a defense because there’s so many variables. Teams that milk the clock often have defenses that rank higher in that category because they simply face fewer plays. But since those same teams usually don’t score at a high rate, having a highly ranked “total defense” doesn’t necessarily translate to being a better team. The top 5 teams in total defense last year were: Air Force, Iowa, Illinois, Iowa State and James Madison. Not exactly a list of championship contenders. Just a bunch of teams who run slow offenses.
 
Advertisement
AllAboutTheU said:
Total defense isn’t a good way to evaluate defense on its own
Click to expand...
I understand what your point is but it still tells me if a Defense sucks or doesn’t. Not one of those defenses are any good nor average. Feel free to look at other stats and the story is the same. Point still stands, tempo offense kills the Defense.
 
DTP said:
2019 LSU, both Clemson teams and Urban’s OSU teams all ran no huddle pretty exclusively. Remember when Saban was trying to get the rules changed to outlaw it? It’s a way to gain an advantage. Especially for a team that might not have the offensive line to just pound the ball at a slow pace. Clemson didn’t beat Alabama for the title twice by playing keep away and milking the clock. They wore out the bigger, stronger Alabama players by not allowing them to take a break between plays. The teams that go hyper fast are usually trying to compensate for a talent disadvantage but even the most talented teams can gain an advantage by going at a fast pace. For me the sweet spot is probably in that 72-75 plays per game area. You want to be able to go fast when you need to but take it down a notch if you’ve got a big lead. The teams running 80-85 plays aren’t usually blowing teams out so they never take their foot off the pedal.

Also, total defense is an outdated metric. It doesn’t really define the actual effectiveness of a defense because there’s so many variables. Teams that milk the clock often have defenses that rank higher in that category because they simply face fewer plays. But since those same teams usually don’t score at a high rate, having a highly ranked “total defense” doesn’t necessarily translate to being a better team. The top 5 teams in total defense last year were: Air Force, Iowa, Illinois, Iowa State and James Madison. Not exactly a list of championship contenders. Just a bunch of teams who run slow offenses.
Click to expand...

LSU was around 40th in plays per game in 2019 and only roughly 2 and change plays per game more than Gattis last season.
 
DTP said:
2019 LSU, both Clemson teams and Urban’s OSU teams all ran no huddle pretty exclusively. Remember when Saban was trying to get the rules changed to outlaw it? It’s a way to gain an advantage. Especially for a team that might not have the offensive line to just pound the ball at a slow pace. Clemson didn’t beat Alabama for the title twice by playing keep away and milking the clock. They wore out the bigger, stronger Alabama players by not allowing them to take a break between plays. The teams that go hyper fast are usually trying to compensate for a talent disadvantage but even the most talented teams can gain an advantage by going at a fast pace. For me the sweet spot is probably in that 72-75 plays per game area. You want to be able to go fast when you need to but take it down a notch if you’ve got a big lead. The teams running 80-85 plays aren’t usually blowing teams out so they never take their foot off the pedal.

Also, total defense is an outdated metric. It doesn’t really define the actual effectiveness of a defense because there’s so many variables. Teams that milk the clock often have defenses that rank higher in that category because they simply face fewer plays. But since those same teams usually don’t score at a high rate, having a highly ranked “total defense” doesn’t necessarily translate to being a better team. The top 5 teams in total defense last year were: Air Force, Iowa, Illinois, Iowa State and James Madison. Not exactly a list of championship contenders. Just a bunch of teams who run slow offenses.
Click to expand...
Every last one of those teams that won championships used situational tempo and didn’t stay in full time tempo. Once they got ahead or the game was under control they slowed it down. They didn’t stay in full-time tempo like a Lashlee offense did. No matter how you try to word Smith it that is the truth.

Nobody here said not to use tempo. I love tempo, but no championship winning program who has ever stayed in full time tempo O unless the game time situation calls for it. They have all slowed it down at times during games unless both teams are running a track meet on each others defenses and neither D can stop the other teams O.
 
Last edited:
Enjoy reading the back and forth going on right now... All I can add is we need change badly...
I like what Dawson brings to the table and believe we'll see more effective balance that we've been wanting to see for a while... At least I hope we do... Lol
 
mossmadness said:
Most programs that run tempo have **** defenses because they have **** defenses. The first programs to adopt tempo were the ones that needed a schematic competitive advantage, because they sucked.

But it’s not true that it “destroys your defense.”

When you adjust for pace of play, there are teams that run tempo that have fine defenses. Or at least the level of defense within their historical average.

Tennessee had the 48th ranked F+ defense in 2020 (the year before going tempo, and instead running Chaney’s offense that is intended to help out the defense by controlling the line of scrimmage and clock).

55th in 2021.

29th in 2022.

Tempo did not hurt their defense. Their defense actually made a huge improvement as Heupel got his tempo based offensive machine fully clicking.

Which is pretty easy to understand. If tempo gives offenses an advantage, then it’s just as likely to offset whatever bad spots you think it puts the defense in, by completely bombing the other team with points. Thereby taking the team out of what it ideally wants to do. Which makes it easier on your defense.

Forcing Mark Stoops to have to throw the football to keep up with your tempo scoring offense, helps your defense a ton.
Click to expand...
A lot depends on your style of play and defensive philosophy. If you're playing a bend but don't break defense, chances are by the second half, your defense will become gassed.

If you're going to run tempo the whole game, you better have a defense that can get stops ... early in a drive, so they can get off the field.
 
Advertisement
5NC4 said:
Exactly, that is “situational tempo” and they slowed the O down at times during games.
Click to expand...
Plays per game:

**reference**
2021 Lashlee - 72.9
2022 Gattis - 68.9

2022 - UGA - 70 ranked 48th
2021 - UGA - 63.2 ranked 115th
2020 - BAMA - 69.3 ranked 68th
2019 - LSU - 71.7 ranked 35th
2018 - Clemson - 71.7 ranked 50th
2017 - BAMA - 67.5 ranked 92nd
2016 - Clemson - 81.3 ranked 7th **also a top 10 defense**
2015 - BAMA - 72.5 ranked 52nd
2014 - OSU - 73.3 ranked 48th
2013 - FSU - 67.6 ranked 94th
2012 - BAMA - 64.1 ranked 116th
2011 - BAMA - 66.5 ranked 88th
2010 - Auburn - 67.7 ranked 61st
2009 - BAMA - 67.6 ranked 57th
2008 - UF - 62.4 ranked 110th
2007 - LSU - 75.3 ranked 24th
2006 - UF - 62.5 ranked 77th
2005 - Texas - 72.4 ranked 36th
2004 - USC - 71 ranked 47th
2003 - LSU - 71 ranked 51st
USC - 69 ranked 79th
2002 - UM - 68.2 ranked 86th
OSU - 64.9 ranked 112th


Average including Clemson's outlier year - 69.2 (rounded up) average plays per game for all title holders since 2002 (yes, we won **** it and included). Only 1 top 20 plays per game offense won, but they also had a top 10, statistically, defense. By and large the ultra fast offenses aren't winning it all.

Urban sped up his title year at OSU compared to UF. UF was rather......slow as ****.

Point being, Gattis was slightly slower in total plays and Lashlee slightly higher in total plays than the average championship team. It's not entirely the number of plays you're running, its knowing when to speed the game up and slow it down. If Gattis was better situationally and with scheme, his total plays would be just fine.

Hence, situational tempo.
 
Last edited:
Hurracanes said:
I understand what your point is but it still tells me if a Defense sucks or doesn’t. Not one of those defenses are any good nor average. Feel free to look at other stats and the story is the same. Point still stands, tempo offense kills the Defense.
Click to expand...
Tennessee’s defensive efficiency is much higher than its total defense, for example
 
Hurracanes said:
The "their Defense were bad because they are bad" is such a lazy take it is absurd. Go back the last 10 years and you'll see the same trend but i guess they were just bad defense's.
Click to expand...
I watched a lot of Oklahoma games over the years just because their offense was a lot of fun to watch

Watching them full of 4/5 star guys getting shredded on defense week to week I absolutely see the point you’re getting at

Complex conversation sure, but I see what you mean
 
mirvin88 said:
LSU was around 40th in plays per game in 2019 and only roughly 2 and change plays per game more than Gattis last season.
Click to expand...
They were that low in plays per game because they had so many explosive plays. If you have a ton of 50 yard plays, you’re not going to run a ton of plays. Pace isn’t solely determined by number of plays run.
 
Back
Top