We have less talent than other teams?

[LuCane]

Ok, let's stop talking in circles and actually take a look at some of the other teams. This is a simple discussion. It's not about what we should be or what we want to be. It's not about "elite" talent or even getting back to the "U of old." It's what we have and what we've done versus what other teams have and what they've done.

It's not that complicated. Does Maryland's defense have so much more talent than our defense? Let's look. Maryland lost both its top Corners, Jeremiah Johnson and Dexter Mcdougle, so they played today with 2nd stringers and young guys (including, gasp, multiple True Freshmen).

One key stat I figured everyone would like:

Virginia Tech's offense was 4 of 16 on 3rd down conversions today. Repeat that a couple times. Here are the Maryland players (bluntly, I'm not disparaging guys because I was incredibly pumped and proud watching them play with passion and anticipate plays) who disrupted VTech all day long.

3-star DB 21	Sean Davis	5	4	7.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
5' 11" 270 pound DL 93	Andre Monroe	4	5	6.5	3.5/24	.	.	.	.	.	3.0/21	.
2 star - not rated - developed into NFL prospect 47	Cole Farrand	4	4	6.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
2 star - not rated 35	Alex Twine	4	2	5.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	1
3-star LB 53	L.A. Goree	3	4	5.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
Senior, stepped in for injured guys, former 2-star 17	Isaac Goins	3	2	4.0	1.0/8	.	.	.	.	.	1.0/8	.
I couldn't find his rating. 40	Matt Robinson	2	3	3.5	2.0/7	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
3-star Safety prospect. 20	Anthony Nixon	2	3	3.5	1.0/2	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
I couldn't find his rating. 41	Marcus Whitfield	2	2	3.0	0.5/2	.	.	.	1	.	0.5/2	1
True Freshman. 3-Star. Florida guy. 4	William Likely	2	2	3.0	.	.	.	.	1	.	.	.
3- star DE. 99	Quinton Jefferson	1	4	3.0	2.0/15	.	.	.	.	.	2.0/15	.
I couldn't find a rating. 97	Darius Kilgo	1	1	1.5	0.5/2	.	.	.	.	.	.	1

It's not all about stars. It's about development, too, obviously. It's also about what players are asked to do that make them look one way or another. That's the group that from Maryland that made the plays today. Is that group that much more talented than our group? I'm not asking how they LOOK. We obviously know that they looked better against VTech than we looked against VTech. The question is: Why did that group look so much better against VTech than we did?

We can do this for other teams, too. Like Memphis. Like Troy. And, some other teams that have played Duke and VTech better than what we did.

 

[bobbydigius]

It's blatantly obvious the majority of the issue is not the talent, that is not to say the talent doesn't need to be upgraded. Remember the Wake game when they went with that crazy spacing of the OL? An obvious FU to our staff, and we proceed to show our stubbornness and inflexibility and get completely taken to task for a full quarter. That was the beginning of seeing a major problem for me, and I'm sure smarter posters on this board saw it earlier but that was it for me. Lu, you are really just talking to a wall at this point, because if one can't see that this isn't about talent, you can role out excellent example after excellent example and they still won't see it.

 

[nycane]

How did these guys turn temple kids into productive nfl players? I don't get what's happening down here now

 

[rascani]

At the end of the day, you have to work with what you have. A good coach is going to get the most out of what he has. I've seen teams do a lot more with a lot less to work with because of good coaching. If you have expectations of competing for national championships, you simply have to have good coaching. It's not enough to just have good talent.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Maryland was shellshocked after the Florida State game and underachieved for a month. They happened to wake up today. We're still in the funk and we've lost important players. I just watched College Gameday from this morning. Herbstreit probably summarized best, and this was before the game, "I don't think Miami cares anymore."

Often it's as simple as that, effort or lack of effort, and all the technical analysis is out the window.

My opinion is that we are simply going in the wrong direction on offense and it impacts the team as a whole. These are not separate entities. In the 4th quarter at North Carolina we masked our weaknesses and took on the mantra of a more physical team by running the ball, cleansing the entire team. Since that point, starting with North Carolina, our rushing attempts have been 45-40-29-24-29. If that number were maintained in the 40+ range, we'd be more physical, more competitive, the defense would not be as worn out or discouraged, and the overall talent level would not be condemned to this degree.

I can't even remember the last time we had three consecutive games with fewer than 30 rushes. I know it hasn't been any time in recent years. Yet nobody is talking about it at all. I guess we're supposed to allow Duke to play the bully role with 52 rushes and only 24 passes, while we take our 17-7 first quarter lead and somehow turn that into 29 runs and 49 passes. Wonderful. Brilliant. And while we're at it, let's make sure plenty of those passes, particularly the vital ones on third down, are out of wimpy empty backfield sets.

Our talent level at this point is so fragile that you have to do the right thing across the board. I attended that North Carolina game and thought we had figured it out in the 4th quarter. We'll probably draw a poor matchup in the bowl and be toyed with. Against the next two opponents it should be basic and physical and run oriented, as a lesson toward next season if nothing else. The same problems will show up in 2014, if likely to lesser degree. Our defensive line and front seven talent won't magically soar next season, no matter the incoming class.

More than anything, I want to make sure I'm the number one opponent of empty sets. With a quarterback and passing game on our level, it's not sophisticated, it's congestion. Drive halting frail congestion.

 

[Brous8988]

Most of our upper classmen are not top defense material. Not trying to rag on them or anything cause they play hard every game but Green Gaines Cornelius Rodgers and Highsmith are not top talent. **** most our d line has gone awol the last couple games. Not saying coach d isnt to blame but until we have a good core talent of upperclassmen its gonna be a struggle. Would love to see a more aggressive scheme to offset their lack of talent

 

[FreePawn]

Hmmmm, you would have to let us know how experienced those kids are, Lu. Right now, except for 5 exceptions (Perryman, Pierre, Chickillo, Armbrister and King, hardly a who´s who of defensive studs), all Golden´s players are in their 1st or 2nd year in the program.

And sorry bobbydigius, but the problem is talent AND coaching. We have some godawful players on D, DLs getting blown off the ball, Highsmith, Rodgers, Cornelius, Gaines missing reads, missing gaps, taking bad angles, getting dragged along when they do get to the ball carrier, avoiding contact a lot.

 

[numbers]

Doesn't this all come down to philosophy? Most good coaches put their players in the best position to be successful by adapting to the talent he has at that time. Coach D (or Golden) insists on running their system despite overwhelming evidence that the players aren't getting it and certainly are not having much success. The turnovers we got early in the season just covered up the fact that we were giving up lots of yards to mediocre offenses (see UiF). Most coaches might have a preferred system, but great coaches adapt to what they have and maximize it. We are failing miserably at this. Coordinators should be great technicians and if they can recruit too, it's a bonus. Coach D fails at both.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

[bbcane]

From another poster. I copied and pasted




Who showed promise in other schemes? These players are not "regressing," they were never good to begin with. You all just hype these kids up based on "insiders" from Greentree or some ridiculous game you play on paper.

I have heard this SCHEME bull**** every year since we lost to Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl. Randy was to vanilla. Whipple to was to risky. 2 gap, 1 gap. The common denominator is our talent level has sucked for years. I don't give two ****s who will or is playing in the NFL.

But if the NFL is your guide, we haven't had a 1st round pick in 5 years.

On Defense here are the players drafted in the top 4 rounds:
2nd Round - Brandon Harris
3rd Round - Allen Bailey, O Vernon, Spence, DVD
4th round - Colin McCarthy, Daryl Sharpton

Brandon Harris, Spence, and DVD are not in the league.
Allen Baily has 20 career tackles and 2 sacks.
Vernon and McCarthy are the only 2 doing anything.
Sharpton is average. Hasn't had more than 35 tackles in season.

We had 2 ****ing players drafted last year..Mike James and Brandon McGee in the 6th and 5th round.
We sure as **** won't have any defensive players drafted this year unless perryman comes out although he is probably a 4th rounder.
The two defensive players with the most NFL talent on the team on defense are Bush, who has been hurt all year, and AQM, who has a shot to be a 1st rounder one day.

How is that talent?

Last 3 years NFL Drafts Top 4 rounds-Defense
North Carolina = 7
Florida St = 5
Georgia Tech = 4
Clemson = 6
UVA = 2
BC = 1
NC St = 1
Miami = Big Fat ****ing Zero

Any if you look at any moc drafts for 2014 and 2015, GT has two LB projected as 1/2 picks. FSU has 6. Clemson has 2.
MIAMI = 000000000000

But the lack of elite talent is only problem #1.

The biggest problem is the drop off from our so called NFl talent to guys like Highsmith, Green, Renfrow, Cain, Porter, Robinson, Rodgers, Cornelius, Gaines. These guys are undraftable 2/3 star recruits who we all hold in such high regard yet it is debateable if they would even be on the two on ALL of our major conference opponents.

You can't scheme your way out of that. Sorry Coach. Go back to the drawing board with your tired talking points.

This team's best players are freshman and sophomores. The cupboard was left empty when Shannon left and we are still haunted by his last two defensive classes. Golden has done a good but not great job of recruiting defense so he takes some of the blame but time will tell is Jenkins, Howard, Bush, AQM, Figs, Grace, Burns, Hamilton, McCord become impact players as the mature.

So after that ramble...here are the real problems.

1. We have a bifurcated team. Our best athletes are true freshman and sophomores and our most experienced guys are barely BCS level talent. If you are a coach, as I was for many years as a volunteer, you will clearly understand the difficulty of putting together a gameplan with your older guys not being athletic enough to execute and your younger guys not experienced enough to eliminate mental errors. You can't implement 2 systems so you are asking AJ Highsmith and Deon Bush to accomplish the same strategic goals. That is not a good spot to be in. The complaint was we were playing to much zone and now we are playing a bunch of man coverage and we are getting smoked on the ground. That is the downside of man coverage. It is very dangerous when you have a front 7 like ours. The good old blitz....who are you going to blitz? Gaines? Highsmith? They are to slow to put any pressure on the QB. If you blitz perryman, you now are putting Gaines or Cornelius in potential bad match ups as they are mismatch against just about every position player other than the Center. You want to disguise and get exotic, it can be complex for the young guys and they will make mental errors or you can have a slow and unathletic Highsmith get out of position because he can't get to his spot. We can't get pressure on the QB with our front 4 so you we are forced to send 5 or 6 which leaves huge holes in the defense in zone, or bad matchups with LBs and Safeties on RB and TE. See FSU game and Eric Ebron. To make matters worse, our blitzes arent effective because our players aren't atheltic enough to get pessure and not one DL commands a Double team so the protection can easily slide and go man up on the rushers.

2. I just ran through every game since and took out FAu and Savannah St. Our offense in 100 series has had only 43% of the drives last over 2 minutes and 25% were less than 3 minutes. That is the downside of our inconsistent QB and our boom or bust offense. Add in the turnovers and quite frankly, our defense is tired. If you know what the **** you are talking about, it is clear that our defense is worn out. The guys named above take the most snaps. The freshman are hitting walls. It is fatigue that leads to missed tackles and blown assignments in crunch time, and that is exactly what is happening in the last 3 games.

It is a pipe dream if you think that a change in scheme would do anything for our defense. They are untalented and beaten down. Add in that our offense is missing its 3 most explosive players in Duke, Dorsett and now Coley....you end up losing to DUKE.

I am tired of hearing your scheme BS. Our DL slants and stunts half the game so your 1 gap vs 2 gap argument is garbage. But you KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT....SO CARRY ON.

 

[WhatTheHell]

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012

The classes we brought in averaged 19th in the country.

Duke's four year average? 63rd.


Saying we don't have the "talent" to NOT allow 300+ yards rushing to Duke is insane and should have people institutionalized.

 

[hoover437]

Ok, let's stop talking in circles and actually take a look at some of the other teams. This is a simple discussion. It's not about what we should be or what we want to be. It's not about "elite" talent or even getting back to the "U of old." It's what we have and what we've done versus what other teams have and what they've done.

It's not that complicated. Does Maryland's defense have so much more talent than our defense? Let's look. Maryland lost both its top Corners, Jeremiah Johnson and Dexter Mcdougle, so they played today with 2nd stringers and young guys (including, gasp, multiple True Freshmen).

One key stat I figured everyone would like:

Virginia Tech's offense was 4 of 16 on 3rd down conversions today. Repeat that a couple times. Here are the Maryland players (bluntly, I'm not disparaging guys because I was incredibly pumped and proud watching them play with passion and anticipate plays) who disrupted VTech all day long.

3-star DB 21	Sean Davis	5	4	7.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
5' 11" 270 pound DL 93	Andre Monroe	4	5	6.5	3.5/24	.	.	.	.	.	3.0/21	.
2 star - not rated - developed into NFL prospect 47	Cole Farrand	4	4	6.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
2 star - not rated 35	Alex Twine	4	2	5.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	1
3-star LB 53	L.A. Goree	3	4	5.0	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
Senior, stepped in for injured guys, former 2-star 17	Isaac Goins	3	2	4.0	1.0/8	.	.	.	.	.	1.0/8	.
I couldn't find his rating. 40	Matt Robinson	2	3	3.5	2.0/7	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
3-star Safety prospect. 20	Anthony Nixon	2	3	3.5	1.0/2	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
I couldn't find his rating. 41	Marcus Whitfield	2	2	3.0	0.5/2	.	.	.	1	.	0.5/2	1
True Freshman. 3-Star. Florida guy. 4	William Likely	2	2	3.0	.	.	.	.	1	.	.	.
3- star DE. 99	Quinton Jefferson	1	4	3.0	2.0/15	.	.	.	.	.	2.0/15	.
I couldn't find a rating. 97	Darius Kilgo	1	1	1.5	0.5/2	.	.	.	.	.	.	1

It's not all about stars. It's about development, too, obviously. It's also about what players are asked to do that make them look one way or another. That's the group that from Maryland that made the plays today. Is that group that much more talented than our group? I'm not asking how they LOOK. We obviously know that they looked better against VTech than we looked against VTech. The question is: Why did that group look so much better against VTech than we did?

We can do this for other teams, too. Like Memphis. Like Troy. And, some other teams that have played Duke and VTech better than what we did.

coaching should learn to work with what you have....yesterday we should have run the ball 50 times, not thrown it 50. slow the game day especially with that defense.

 

[TexasCane90]

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012

The classes we brought in averaged 19th in the country.

Duke's four year average? 63rd.


Saying we don't have the "talent" to NOT allow 300+ yards rushing to Duke is insane and should have people institutionalized.

Dammit I can't rep him enough!!!

We have adequate talent it's just their not in the right **** place!!! That's coaching!!! You can sugar coat cause were use to 1st rd picks and hof players on D but we still have more talent

 

[cane33]

The it's not the coaches its the talent people are idiots. Last year they all said it was because we had a bunch of 1st and 2nd year inexperienced players. A year later, now we're playing 2nd and 3rd year players and statistically our defense is worse.

The whole premise of their argument lacks foundation and is asinine. At this point, anybody who is still attributing a majority of the blame to our "lack of talent" clearly is either delusional or knows nothing about football. It doesn't take a 2-deep full of future NFL players to stop Duke from racking up 500 yards.

 

[MIA42178]

Anyone who buys its a talent issue when we lose to Duke like this, barely beat wake?
Is fun king we tall did

 

[Coach Macho]

How did these guys turn temple kids into productive nfl players? I don't get what's happening down here now

The same way Shannon turned a bunch of guys into productive NFL players?

 

[Miami82]

Maryland was shellshocked after the Florida State game and underachieved for a month. They happened to wake up today. We're still in the funk and we've lost important players. I just watched College Gameday from this morning. Herbstreit probably summarized best, and this was before the game, "I don't think Miami cares anymore."

Often it's as simple as that, effort or lack of effort, and all the technical analysis is out the window.

My opinion is that we are simply going in the wrong direction on offense and it impacts the team as a whole. These are not separate entities. In the 4th quarter at North Carolina we masked our weaknesses and took on the mantra of a more physical team by running the ball, cleansing the entire team. Since that point, starting with North Carolina, our rushing attempts have been 45-40-29-24-29. If that number were maintained in the 40+ range, we'd be more physical, more competitive, the defense would not be as worn out or discouraged, and the overall talent level would not be condemned to this degree.

I can't even remember the last time we had three consecutive games with fewer than 30 rushes. I know it hasn't been any time in recent years. Yet nobody is talking about it at all. I guess we're supposed to allow Duke to play the bully role with 52 rushes and only 24 passes, while we take our 17-7 first quarter lead and somehow turn that into 29 runs and 49 passes. Wonderful. Brilliant. And while we're at it, let's make sure plenty of those passes, particularly the vital ones on third down, are out of wimpy empty backfield sets.

Our talent level at this point is so fragile that you have to do the right thing across the board. I attended that North Carolina game and thought we had figured it out in the 4th quarter. We'll probably draw a poor matchup in the bowl and be toyed with. Against the next two opponents it should be basic and physical and run oriented, as a lesson toward next season if nothing else. The same problems will show up in 2014, if likely to lesser degree. Our defensive line and front seven talent won't magically soar next season, no matter the incoming class.

More than anything, I want to make sure I'm the number one opponent of empty sets. With a quarterback and passing game on our level, it's not sophisticated, it's congestion. Drive halting frail congestion.

I think it was you either last year or beginning this year that said we should be a power running team to be physical and to protect this teams liability the defense. Couldn't agree more. The strength of this team is the Oline. Show case that and stop trying to complicate something so obvious we do well.

 

[Cribby]

Maryland was shellshocked after the Florida State game and underachieved for a month. They happened to wake up today. We're still in the funk and we've lost important players. I just watched College Gameday from this morning. Herbstreit probably summarized best, and this was before the game, "I don't think Miami cares anymore."

Often it's as simple as that, effort or lack of effort, and all the technical analysis is out the window.

My opinion is that we are simply going in the wrong direction on offense and it impacts the team as a whole. These are not separate entities. In the 4th quarter at North Carolina we masked our weaknesses and took on the mantra of a more physical team by running the ball, cleansing the entire team. Since that point, starting with North Carolina, our rushing attempts have been 45-40-29-24-29. If that number were maintained in the 40+ range, we'd be more physical, more competitive, the defense would not be as worn out or discouraged, and the overall talent level would not be condemned to this degree.

I can't even remember the last time we had three consecutive games with fewer than 30 rushes. I know it hasn't been any time in recent years. Yet nobody is talking about it at all. I guess we're supposed to allow Duke to play the bully role with 52 rushes and only 24 passes, while we take our 17-7 first quarter lead and somehow turn that into 29 runs and 49 passes. Wonderful. Brilliant. And while we're at it, let's make sure plenty of those passes, particularly the vital ones on third down, are out of wimpy empty backfield sets.

Our talent level at this point is so fragile that you have to do the right thing across the board. I attended that North Carolina game and thought we had figured it out in the 4th quarter. We'll probably draw a poor matchup in the bowl and be toyed with. Against the next two opponents it should be basic and physical and run oriented, as a lesson toward next season if nothing else. The same problems will show up in 2014, if likely to lesser degree. Our defensive line and front seven talent won't magically soar next season, no matter the incoming class.

More than anything, I want to make sure I'm the number one opponent of empty sets. With a quarterback and passing game on our level, it's not sophisticated, it's congestion. Drive halting frail congestion.

Offense doesn't matter if you can't stop the other team, ever. Seriously . I'm amazed how fans can even think about the other side of the ball, when we're rocking the worst defense in school history.

 

[FoggU]

It's blatantly obvious the majority of the issue is not the talent, that is not to say the talent doesn't need to be upgraded. Remember the Wake game when they went with that crazy spacing of the OL? An obvious FU to our staff, and we proceed to show our stubbornness and inflexibility and get completely taken to task for a full quarter. That was the beginning of seeing a major problem for me, and I'm sure smarter posters on this board saw it earlier but that was it for me. Lu, you are really just talking to a wall at this point, because if one can't see that this isn't about talent, you can role out excellent example after excellent example and they still won't see it.

I agree with your overall point, but WF typically has wide gaps as a standard piece of their offense. It wasn't something new to try to throw the Canes off and it was a disrespect move towards our coaches. However, our coaching staff clearly did not have an effective game plan to deal with this nor did they seem to adjust throughout the game. I remember most blitzing efforts coming from the widened outside rather than up the middle through on of the wide gaps; result was no pressure on the QB and, consequently, a shoot out with an inept offense that is ranked 119.

 

[Biscuits]

No other team gave up more yardage to Duke or VT.

Second most for:
Florida (Toldeo)
UNC (MTSU)

Half our schedule has 'gone off'. Wake had it's third best day. USF did better than average.

It's probably the scheme and the talent.

 

[KANE]

Yea. We don't have any talent (sarcasm).
Dude, We may not be deep or as talented as f$u, ala, and some others, but do you honestly expect us to believe that we're not talented enough to slow Duke down? Duke, man....NOT **** Oregon, but Duke! Teams are making us their bytches week after week, and their running the same fuccin plays (over and over again), in the same **** situation, using the same **** formations! If u can't see what is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS to most on this board (That NoD'onofrio is fuccin horrible), then I really don't know what to say to you. NoD'onofrio SUX!!! U got some good points, bbcane, but I call it like I see it. NoD' needs to go!