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30 X 13=11?

We the Boss said:
Like comparing the canes to Clemson?

We have a decent defense. Compared to our 2019 offense the defense isn’t the problem. But the idea we are in the same league as elite teams is a joke.
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So just to recap. First you stated our defense was "man handled" by FIU. Then I posted the numbers that show that our defense held FIU to numbers very similar to what Clemson's defense averaged for the entire 2019 season. You ignore that. Then I post three examples where our defense performed as well if not better than Clemson's against common opponents. You ignore that. Now you want to backtrack and claim what our defense is decent, but suggest that comparing it to Clemson's is grasping at straws. Are you ever going to address any of the facts that I've posted in this thread?
 
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Go Canes!! said:
GT scored exactly 7 points against our defense in regulation.

In the bowl game versus Wisconsin and this year’s VT game we turned the ball over EIGHT times in the FIRST HALF of each of those offensive horror shows. Can you tell me what “great” defense was going to shut down another team with that kind of deck stacked against them?
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How long have you been watching the CANES? We've turned the ball over 5 times in an NC game and only gave up 14 points. There are probably 20 examples we can use of our past defenses.

I stand corrected in regards to GT. I should have said zero points.
 
Moonman said:
Ok. Try this

FSU gained 253 total yards on 58 plays (4.4 yards/play) against Clemson's D

The CANES' D held FSU to 203 total yards on 69 plays (2.9 yards/play)

Where did Clemson's D rank on your 'adjusted for strength of schedule' rankings?
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To keep it all in perspective, didn’t Clemson get out to a quick gigantic lead against FSU then coast the entire second half? They emptied the bench. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

This is why stats without consideration to what happened in the actual game are often very misleading.
 
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Go Canes!! said:
Our first four possessions in that game were INT, INT, INT, fumble.
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Ok - so go get the ******* ball back. We gave up 3 TDs(?) off of 4 TOs? Sorry. I'm not ok with that. Sure, the offense was sucking pure ***. But, how does it become a given that we're going to allow them to score? We KNOW the offense was performing poorly. But, people thinking that our defense shouldn't respond is beyond me. 3 TDs(?) off of 4 TOs to start? Nah. That's trash.

The ****** offense scored 35 points over the last 3 quarters. 21 points in the 4th. The defense complemented that by playing some real crappy football in the 4th quarter and gave up 14 points to close out the game. The defense did that quite a few times over the course of the season.
 
Moonman said:
So just to recap. First you stated our defense was "man handled" by FIU. Then I posted the numbers that show that our defense held FIU to numbers very similar to what Clemson's defense averaged for the entire 2019 season. You ignore that. Then I post three examples where our defense performed as well if not better than Clemson's against common opponents. You ignore that. Now you want to backtrack and claim what our defense is decent, but suggest that comparing it to Clemson's is grasping at straws. Are you ever going to address any of the facts that I've posted in this thread?
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No
 
Wow it’s really tough to wrap my mind around the fact that if we scored 30 every game we’d usually win.
 
MrMachete said:
This is just dumb. We gave up 30 points to ******* FIU, man. It doesn't get much worse than that. Seriously. Like how many points did they score in the 4th quarter? You guys are seriously telling yourselves a "good" Miami defense would allow FIU to run up and down the field like that down the stretch? Holy ****, man. When in the **** were you guys born?

Seriously. WTF is wrong with you guys? GT ran like 6-8 plays all game. How many points did they score? Let me guess. The offense.... Seriously! WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GEORGIA TECH WHO JUST CHANGED THEIR ENTIRE APPROACH TO PLAYING COLLEGE FOOTBALL! They were a HORRID football team. HORRID!! Even if our QBs threw 5 interceptions, GT never should have scored more than 14 points. Georia Tech was a God awful football team.

How many points did VT score on us? Again. VT doesn't even have a real QB? Do they? Like Josh walked away and we got beat by who..... Our offense settled down and started putting up points, but all that did was allow our defense to fold down the stretch. When has VT ever scored that many points on us at home?

I think Wisconsin just scored again. From both Bowls.

Really. Clemson is one example. It wasn't an aberration. We typically don't play anyone with a pulse on offense and most of our defensive numbers are pretty cosmetic. We were ranked 67th(?) in defense in accordance to SOC. Smoke & mirrors.
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Preach.

Our defense always plays just well enough to lose and point the finger at the offense or the kicker. Anyone propping up this defense with empty stats didn’t watch us routinely fold pretty much all year. Whenever we needed a stop to keep momentum or stop the bleeding we couldn’t get one.

These guys talk short field against Vag Tech. Does a short field mean you’re required to give up easy walk in scores on every drive? Bow up! Force a fcking FG. We acted like 29 from VT had coronavirus we stayed so far from covering him.

Then they talk about stats against GT. LOL. GT shouldn’t have gained 100 yards total. Instead we’re giving up 3rd and 20 on give up draw plays.

FIU? Anyone who makes a single excuse for that should just swan dive off a balcony into a puddle.
 
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The Franchise said:
To keep it all in perspective, didn’t Clemson get out to a quick gigantic lead against FSU then coast the entire second half? They emptied the bench. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

This is why stats without consideration to what happened in the actual game are often very misleading.
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FSU 1st half offensive stats
v Clemson - 63 total yards, 4 first downs.
v Miami - 88 total yards, 7 first downs.

We were up 17-3 at halftime
Clemson was up 28-0 at halftime

Might our defense have allowed more yards and points in the 2nd half of our offense had had a four or five score lead? Sure, that's possible...but the whole point of the thread is that our defense was probably good enough to carry us to at least 9 wins, maybe more if only our offense were not dead last in 3rd down conversions.
 
MrMachete said:
Ok - so go get the ******* ball back. We gave up 3 TDs(?) off of 4 TOs? Sorry. I'm not ok with that. Sure, the offense was sucking pure ***. But, how does it become a given that we're going to allow them to score? We KNOW the offense was performing poorly. But, people thinking that our defense shouldn't respond is beyond me. 3 TDs(?) off of 4 TOs to start? Nah. That's trash.

The ****** offense scored 35 points over the last 3 quarters. 21 points in the 4th. The defense complemented that by playing some real crappy football in the 4th quarter and gave up 14 points to close out the game. The defense did that quite a few times over the course of the season.
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I thought the tackling was atrocious all season long and we lucked out playing a lot of QB’s who couldn’t hit open receivers or receivers dropping balls. We looked poorly coached in some fundamentals.
 
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The Franchise said:
Preach.

Our defense always plays just well enough to lose and point the finger at the offense or the kicker. Anyone propping up this defense with empty stats didn’t watch us routinely fold pretty much all year. Whenever we needed a stop to keep momentum or stop the bleeding we couldn’t get one.

These guys talk short field against Vag Tech. Does a short field mean you’re required to give up easy walk in scores on every drive? Bow up! Force a fcking FG. We acted like 29 from VT had coronavirus we stayed so far from covering him.

Then they talk about stats against GT. LOL. GT shouldn’t have gained 100 yards total. Instead we’re giving up 3rd and 20 on give up draw plays.

FIU? Anyone who makes a single excuse for that should just swan dive off a balcony into a puddle.
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If I were to tell you without knowing the outcome of a game that we scored 5 TDs, and that our defense forced 4 three&outs, 6 punts, and gave up 335 total yards and 15 first downs...what would you guess was the final score?

How about if I told you that we scored 5 TDs and that our defense forced 6 three&outs, 7 punts, and gave up 337 total yards and 14 first downs?

The first game was at VT in 2018 and we won 38-14.

The second game was last year's VT game.

The difference in those two games?

Five turnovers.
 
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Yes, if our offense was even average, we probably win a couple more games last year...

...that fact does not mean our defense is stalwart. The defense has serious holes. One CB position is very weak, the LBs are extremely young, and the DTs (while talented) are still unproven. You'll still see issues next year, though I expect better than in 2019.
 
RVACane said:
I thought the tackling was atrocious all season long and we lucked out playing a lot of QB’s who couldn’t hit open receivers or receivers dropping balls. We looked poorly coached in some fundamentals.
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All season. Tackling was pure ***. 3rd and 4th stops were pure ***. We buckled in the 4th all too often. Zero sacks and 30 points to FI fugging U. I think we took a huge step backwards fundamentally. Baker was a liability in 2019 - in so many ways.
 
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Moonman said:
If I were to tell you without knowing the outcome of a game that we scored 5 TDs, and that our defense forced 4 three&outs, 6 punts, and gave up 335 total yards and 15 first downs...what would you guess was the final score?

How about if I told you that we scored 5 TDs and that our defense forced 6 three&outs, 7 punts, and gave up 337 total yards and 14 first downs?

The first game was at VT in 2018 and we won 38-14.

The second game was last year's VT game.

The difference in those two games?

Four turnovers.
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Well there isn’t enough info there. How many touchdowns did our defense allow in each game?
 
MrMachete said:
How long have you been watching the CANES? We've turned the ball over 5 times in an NC game and only gave up 14 points. There are probably 20 examples we can use of our past defenses.

I stand corrected in regards to GT. I should have said zero points.
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I've been watching the Canes for 40 years and been a season ticket holder the majority of my adult life. So I've been watching them a while.

As far as the 5 TO national champions, that is irrelevant. The game is completely different today than it was back then. Your 2019 National Champion LSU Tigers, with all their draft choices, gave up 38 points to Vanderbilt and 37 to Ole Miss.

The point I'm trying to make with this thread is over the last three seasons this defense has rarely gone out and given up a ton of points without some type of massive failure by the offense. It's not the best in college football obviously, but in any given game if the offense plays clean and puts up decent scoring numbers it's almost a guaranteed W for us.

If we consistently put up a reasonable amount of points it will be enough for us to hit 10-11 wins.
 
Go Canes!! said:
I've been watching the Canes for 40 years and been a season ticket holder the majority of my adult life. So I've been watching them a while.

As far as the 5 TO national champions, that is irrelevant. The game is completely different today than it was back then. Your 2019 National Champion LSU Tigers, with all their draft choices, gave up 38 points to Vanderbilt and 37 to Ole Miss.

The point I'm trying to make with this thread is over the last three seasons this defense has rarely gone out and given up a ton of points without some type of massive failure by the offense. It's not the best in college football obviously, but in any given game if the offense plays clean and puts up decent scoring numbers it's almost a guaranteed W for us.

If we consistently put up a reasonable amount of points it will be enough for us to hit 10-11 wins.
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You’re probably right about wins given our schedule but this defense is a good bit of smoke and mirrors. It’s gimmicky and there’s consistent failure in executing fundamentals such as poor tackling, blown coverages and our stop percentage on 3rd and 4th downs has definitely slid backwards. Manny definitely ran it better than Baker. Given that there are no coaching changes on the defensive side of the ball, we’ll see how that translates on the field.
 
We the Boss said:
You convinced me. Our defense is clearly as good as Clemson’s.
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Point me to where I said that our defense was as good as Clemson's.

Spoiler alert, you won't find it because I never said that. What I said was that on three occasions our defense played just as well if not better than Clemson's versus common opponents. Was Clemson's D better than Miami's in 2019? Yes it was. I'll even give you an example using the same standard that I've been using since we started this debate.

Clemson's D held Louisville's offense to 10 points and 263 total yards on 65 plays (4.0 yards/play). Malik Cunningham was 4-11 for 63 yards and a pick against Clemson.

Against Miami, Cunningham threw for 219 yards and 2 TDs. Louisville scored 27 points and gained 496 yards of total offense on 64 plays (7.8 yards/play). That clearly indicates that Louisville had a tougher time against Clemson's D than they did against Miami's.

Does that validate your 'adjusted for strength of schedule' rankings that have Miami's D ludicrously ranked 60 spots below Clemson's? Absolutely not. That ranking is bunk and even you know it.

My point again continues to be that the defense is fine, has been fine, will be fine in 2020 and to suggest that anyone on that side of the ball needs to be fired is unfounded.
 
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