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NFL 2021 Draft

DMoney

D-Moni
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The fact that the vast majority of his production came from the interior, and he had very few legit rushes/pressures from the edge on a high volume of snaps.

Maybe he develops an edge rush skillset, maybe he doesn't. Either way I've lost count of the number of analysts who characterize his opt out as a mistake. He had and still has a lot to prove and he cost himself a lot of money with his decision.

He opted out because his mom was a Covid nurse. Don’t think it was a pure business decision on his part. He still should be the first edge off the board. I get the sense that the NFL types (Jeremiah, Brooks, “anonymous sources”) are higher on him than the Internet scouts. Doesn’t mean NFL is necessarily right, but it should be more predictive of draft spot.

As for his production coming on the interior, he did what he was asked to do. I don’t see anything physically that tells me he can’t get it done just as well on the edge. Michigan moved Paye around everywhere and he still couldn’t get the QB on the ground like Rousseau.
 

BoxingRobes

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We had those?.

Naw son you wrote a novel on negatves on rousseau. Your first part was downplaying 4 sacks against our most hated rival.

That being said i do follow you and most of your post because you know your sh*t...but in what world is MOTOR on a dl seen as a negative?.

Brother, you know we cool...but you gotta learn to read.

If you saw those posts thinking it was a bunch of negatives because I don't think he's an EDGE player, breh, idk what to tell you. I'm just telling you why I don't think he's an EDGE pass rush prospect like basically everyone else thinks he is, and that he is more of a 34 end (which there is a lack of analysis on him there). The analysis I see on Greg Rousseau on the internet blows my mind (from most everyone, not just here). My eyes must be seeing a different player out there. I actually like Greg Rousseau as a prospect...just...not as an EDGE pass rusher. I think you need to project way too much...he's not incapable...but I think the leap to him being a pass rush EDGE specialist is a big leap. I think the gap is much closer to him being a DeForest Buckner type of 34 interior defensive lineman than it is a pass rusher from the outside like he's Julius Peppers. His skill set...that I outlined with posted video (you know I'm not talking out of my azz)...just screams like more of a mismatch inside than he is a mismatch outside. The production and tape tell me thats so. I highlighted how his motor is an ASSET inside and how well he's worked through trash and how his long arms are a benefit inside. But his motor is far too often negated from the outside, especially when OT get their hands on him.

D$ compared him to Calais Campbell...even coming into the league, I thought Calais Campbell was more advanced as a football player. Hand use, coming in with a plan of attack, etc. Calais was just lazy in his last year at Miami, basically took everything off after the Oklahoma game in his last year (Phil Loadholt beat him up quite a bit) and - unlike Greg Rousseau - notoriously gave no fvcks about putting in work in the gym. I don't see the same player. But I guess if you project Greg Rousseau way far out and say he can BE that, but I think that's a long bridge to get there.

Like I said, can you go into any of those highlight clips I posted and find ONE play from the EDGE where he's making a first round play on an ACC level RIGHT TACKLE? I did not see one. Had a cool sack against a TE, sure. But everything else was him inside beating interior OL. I'd ask for you to make a gif, but I'd ask for just a time stamp at this point.

---

and ya, bruh...yall constantly surprised when Miami players are not drafted as high as you think.

and when I mean yall, that means you, too.

Not really surprised at all like u i agree..i expected willis in the late 2nd to 3rd and joe jack the 3rd though...

some bums like the dt from UCF and a few other random other players went that i didnt expect. No way you can tell me a dt from ucf, and western illinois are guys better than Gerald Willis..no way.



When I have time later in the week, I want to go into a few more games from 2019 to see if I keep seeing the same ****.
 

lf26soda

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Saw this about Greg Rousseau on nfl.com

"I don't really see a big-time NFL rusher. So much of his pressure came as a zero-technique and he won't see those looks in our league. He has very average juice and speed-to-power." -- Director of scouting for NFL team

 

BoxingRobes

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We had those?.

Naw son you wrote a novel on negatves on rousseau. Your first part was downplaying 4 sacks against our most hated rival.

That being said i do follow you and most of your post because you know your sh*t...but in what world is MOTOR on a dl seen as a negative?.
btw - again, to continue...I've been having some thoughts about Marcus Davenport in this discussion...because I seem to remember him having a lot of production up the middle or in the interior, too. Man, I'm watching some Marcus Davenport highlights from his time at UTEP and they are probably a lot closer to prospects than some would think...although, I think Davenport was a bit more explosive and had a little more to him on the edge (had a dip, a little more speed to power), but a lot of success through trash up the middle, a lot of good use of his wingspan, just beating interior types when isolated with his athleticism...but again, he was able to use his hands to disengage from the sorry OL of Conference USA r whatever more often than Rousseau did against ACC OT, IMO.

The reason I bring up Davenport....12 career sacks through 3 seasons (37 games) and only 14 starts.

You look at Davenport's combine and you see a guy with a 4.5 40 time, big wingspan, big broad jump...that stuff appears on tape...but ... positional average cone and 20 yard shuttle times...and hey, that appears on tape, too and the results three years in to the league...a non-starter and I guess rotational guy at best with quite a few injuries. Not out of his rookie contract yet, but the developmental curve as an EDGE like this could be quite long...that is what I fear when I see Rousseau projected as a pure EDGE pass rusher. Its long bridge, brother.

Finally looked at some of the limited David Irving film on the internet from Iowa State...and...I can definitely see what brother @HighSeas was saying with that comparison. I wish I had given that one a bit more credence when he mentioned it, because its another good player type comparison. Again...12.5 sacks of production through 39 games, 10 starts.
 

gogeta4

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Brother, you know we cool...but you gotta learn to read.

If you saw those posts thinking it was a bunch of negatives because I don't think he's an EDGE player, breh, idk what to tell you. I'm just telling you why I don't think he's an EDGE pass rush prospect like basically everyone else thinks he is, and that he is more of a 34 end (which there is a lack of analysis on him there). The analysis I see on Greg Rousseau on the internet blows my mind (from most everyone, not just here). My eyes must be seeing a different player out there. I actually like Greg Rousseau as a prospect...just...not as an EDGE pass rusher. I think you need to project way too much...he's not incapable...but I think the leap to him being a pass rush EDGE specialist is a big leap. I think the gap is much closer to him being a DeForest Buckner type of 34 interior defensive lineman than it is a pass rusher from the outside like he's Julius Peppers. His skill set...that I outlined with posted video (you know I'm not talking out of my azz)...just screams like more of a mismatch inside than he is a mismatch outside. The production and tape tell me thats so. I highlighted how his motor is an ASSET inside and how well he's worked through trash and how his long arms are a benefit inside. But his motor is far too often negated from the outside, especially when OT get their hands on him.

D$ compared him to Calais Campbell...even coming into the league, I thought Calais Campbell was more advanced as a football player. Hand use, coming in with a plan of attack, etc. Calais was just lazy in his last year at Miami, basically took everything off after the Oklahoma game in his last year (Phil Loadholt beat him up quite a bit) and - unlike Greg Rousseau - notoriously gave no fvcks about putting in work in the gym. I don't see the same player. But I guess if you project Greg Rousseau way far out and say he can BE that, but I think that's a long bridge to get there.

Like I said, can you go into any of those highlight clips I posted and find ONE play from the EDGE where he's making a first round play on an ACC level RIGHT TACKLE? I did not see one. Had a cool sack against a TE, sure. But everything else was him inside beating interior OL. I'd ask for you to make a gif, but I'd ask for just a time stamp at this point.

---

and ya, bruh...yall constantly surprised when Miami players are not drafted as high as you think.

and when I mean yall, that means you, too.





When I have time later in the week, I want to go into a few more games from 2019 to see if I keep seeing the same ****.

Gerald Willis went wherever he went or didnt go because of off the field stuff. Not his actual play on the field. Play on the field he was a mid rounder.

I dont really think Rousseau is like Calais Campbell play wise. I really dont know what his comp woul dbe because he is so unique and still a blank canvas. He did what they asked him to do, which is what they asked others like Chad Thomas to do. Like Dmoney said though...if it was easy to do what he did we would have multiple guys doing it. I also dont think Deforest Buckner types are as athletic as him. This wil be an interesting eval and slot pick man. We gonna track this mfer.
 

BoxingRobes

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Gerald Willis went wherever he went or didnt go because of off the field stuff. Not his actual play on the field. Play on the field he was a mid rounder.

I dont really think Rousseau is like Calais Campbell play wise. I really dont know what his comp woul dbe because he is so unique and still a blank canvas. He did what they asked him to do, which is what they asked others like Chad Thomas to do. Like Dmoney said though...if it was easy to do what he did we would have multiple guys doing it. I also dont think Deforest Buckner types are as athletic as him. This wil be an interesting eval and slot pick man. We gonna track this mfer.

When I was going over some Jaelan Phillips, they had him do some of the same things Rousseau was doing. I think he showed more tools in the toolbox, too. I'm a big fan of Phillips as a prospect...just wish he didn't have the concussion/injury issues.

And ya, Buckner is also like 30-40lbs heavier, he's not going to be as athletic. But, guys like Marcus Davenport were athletic (and honestly looked more athletic than Rousseau on tape)...and he's not producing at a high level either. Buckner has 38 career sacks (plus a 12 sack SEASON!) through 5 seasons. Which is why...idk...maybe Rousseau should bulk up and maybe we should be evaluating him as not-an-EDGE. Like I said, I'm going to watch some more from his 2019 season, but I expect just more to confirm what I saw from the other games. I was checking out some of the Louisville clips and its a lot of the same. I know some say he's got DB like athleticism, but there were a few plays in that Louisville game where he looked very stiff in space.
 

DMoney

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D$ compared him to Calais Campbell...even coming into the league,
I didn't compare him to Campbell, it was a contrast. He doesn't have a lower-body like CC that will allow him to hold up inside. Rousseau has an edge body.

The guy is 6'7, has clean character, a motor, bend, change-of-direction, and sacks the QB more than anybody in the class. If he's too much of a projection for you, who in this edge rush class is a safer bet? To steal a line from my guy Daniel Jeremiah, Rousseau dominated while learning on the job. He's already good and getting better.
 

DMoney

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Saw this about Greg Rousseau on nfl.com

"I don't really see a big-time NFL rusher. So much of his pressure came as a zero-technique and he won't see those looks in our league. He has very average juice and speed-to-power." -- Director of scouting for NFL team


This is what a scout told the Herald. You will get a variety of opinions, although I haven't seen anybody who has him outside the first round:

A veteran NFL scout said he sees both as first round picks, with Rousseau off the board first: “I think Rousseau is a top-10 talent — long, quick, plays smart. Phillips plays with maturity and instincts, gets off blocks. Rousseau is quicker, but Phillips has a lot of what teams are looking in a defensive end.”
 

gogeta4

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When I was going over some Jaelan Phillips, they had him do some of the same things Rousseau was doing. I think he showed more tools in the toolbox, too. I'm a big fan of Phillips as a prospect...just wish he didn't have the concussion/injury issues.

And ya, Buckner is also like 30-40lbs heavier, he's not going to be as athletic. But, guys like Marcus Davenport were athletic (and honestly looked more athletic than Rousseau on tape)...and he's not producing at a high level either. Buckner has 38 career sacks (plus a 12 sack SEASON!) through 5 seasons. Which is why...idk...maybe Rousseau should bulk up and maybe we should be evaluating him as not-an-EDGE. Like I said, I'm going to watch some more from his 2019 season, but I expect just more to confirm what I saw from the other games. I was checking out some of the Louisville clips and its a lot of the same. I know some say he's got DB like athleticism, but there were a few plays in that Louisville game where he looked very stiff in space.
I was never really high on Buckner so that could be where i dont see it. Davenport was a combine guy if i could recall.
We also gotta know what are the teams in the nfl asking particular guys to do and the other talent they are playing with.
For example the Riddick kid from Temple was seen as a bust in AZ then all of a sudden he is just falling into a million sacks...Now JJ Watt is heading out there to go with Chandler Jones.

Still remember watching that draft not sure if it was him (Buckner) or Armstead...but both of them were on multiple offensive lineman highlights in the same draft. Me and my boy were like wtf..never seen a guy go so high but be on others "highlights".
 

gogeta4

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I didn't compare him to Campbell, it was a contrast. He doesn't have a lower-body like CC that will allow him to hold up inside. Rousseau has an edge body.

The guy is 6'7, has clean character, a motor, bend, change-of-direction, and sacks the QB more than anybody in the class. If he's too much of a projection for you, who in this edge rush class is a safer bet? To steal a line from my guy Daniel Jeremiah, Rousseau dominated while learning on the job. He's already good and getting better.
That is the thing...there isnt anyone clear cut better at getting to the qb in this draft....and they definately dont have his attributes. Phillips is up there though which is scary to think...if Rousseau doesnt opt out we likely dont get what we got from Phillips right away.

Phillips, Rousseau,Roche at the same time is a SCARY SIGHT.
 

BoxingRobes

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I didn't compare him to Campbell, it was a contrast. He doesn't have a lower-body like CC that will allow him to hold up inside. Rousseau has an edge body.

Rousseau is 6'7, has clean character, a motor, bend, change-of-direction, and sacks the QB more than anybody in the class. If he's too much of a projection for you, who in this edge rush class is a safer bet? To steal a line from my guy Daniel Jeremiah, Rousseau dominated while learning on the job. He's already good and getting better.

He dominated in an area he won't play in the league. His overall PFF grade was a 76 in 2019. That's lower than Phillips and Roche last year. Like I said, brother. Can you pull any R1 EDGE plays...where he dominated a college tackle, showed an NFL skill set from the FSU, UVA, or VaTech games? I didn't see any in the limited Louisville clips I saw either. Also, haven't seen the bend over those four games. I'd ask you to show your work there. The next game on my docket is Pitt, so we'll see. I did a quick look and I saw once nice play against whoever their RT was...wouldn't call it a R1 type play from a pass rusher, but it was nice.

All I'm asking, is if he's the player you say he is, where he's the best EDGE player and pass rusher in the class, can you show me clips where you're seeing a Round 1 EDGE player.

You say he doesn't have an anchor to hold up inside, but I see a guy who is more developed as a run defender than pass rusher right now. He was a pretty good run defender (PFF credited him with a 17% run stop, which is good).

Here is his ACC highlight tape, he had one really impressive rep against an ACC tackle that led to a sack (a freshman from Duke). He's almost all bullrush, too.


As for who is better? I mean, I like Jaelan Phillips more as an EDGE. As I've said now, I think Rousseau projects as more of a 34 end, not an EDGE and I haven't watched enough of the guys at the top yet to really tell you...but I'd go with Phillips and start there, but I'm sure if I watched some tape of some other guys I'd say as an EDGE, there are more. Not as a football player...I still think Rousseau is a R1 player, just as a 34 end and would slot him probably later in R1 as a best value.
 

Jassid82

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Saw this about Greg Rousseau on nfl.com

"I don't really see a big-time NFL rusher. So much of his pressure came as a zero-technique and he won't see those looks in our league. He has very average juice and speed-to-power." -- Director of scouting for NFL team

This reaks of "let me throw some bad pub on this kids name so hopefully he drops to us" type BS. Ive heard alot of things about GR but him not being able to rush the passer at DE aint one of them. Now if he had said our scheme might make him look alot better than he really is then fine because CIS posters have said that. (Even though I think thats BS too)
 

Ethnicsands

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He opted out because his mom was a Covid nurse. Don’t think it was a pure business decision on his part. He still should be the first edge off the board. I get the sense that the NFL types (Jeremiah, Brooks, “anonymous sources”) are higher on him than the Internet scouts. Doesn’t mean NFL is necessarily right, but it should be more predictive of draft spot.

As for his production coming on the interior, he did what he was asked to do. I don’t see anything physically that tells me he can’t get it done just as well on the edge. Michigan moved Paye around everywhere and he still couldn’t get the QB on the ground like Rousseau.
I agree but would go further. He's not deficient at all at edge potential, IMO. I think they're off base on that criticism. He's long, agile and can twist, so I think he should be as good as you can expect from a DE in containment with some skill development. And he can even cover out into the flat. Sure, it looks weird for someone 6'6" to be out there chasing skill guys, but he's not giving up anything compared to most DEs in that regard.
 

DMoney

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As for who is better? I mean, I like Jaelan Phillips more as an EDGE. As I've said now, I think Rousseau projects as more of a 34 end, not an EDGE and I haven't watched enough of the guys at the top yet to really tell you...but I'd go with Phillips and start there, but I'm sure if I watched some tape of some other guys I'd say as an EDGE, there are more. Not as a football player...I still think Rousseau is a R1 player, just as a 34 end and would slot him probably later in R1 as a best value.
If Jaelan is the only other EDGE in the conversation, I agree with you. I have them neck-and-neck and pegged Jaelan Phillips as a first round-type player after four spring practices. The guy is unreal. My issue is that people are forgetting how unique Rousseau is.

As for your examples, we're rehashing the same discussion. Obviously, Rousseau played a certain role in college and was extremely productive. The question is whether anything is limiting him in his transition to a more pure EDGE role. I don't see it. He won inside because he was freakishly long and quick with a great motor. He will win outside because is freakishly long and quick with a great motor. He is both developmental and proven.
 

canecrazy23

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If Jaelan is the only other EDGE in the conversation, I agree with you. I have them neck-and-neck and pegged Jaelan Phillips as a first round-type player after four spring practices. The guy is unreal. My issue is that people are forgetting how unique Rousseau is.

As for your examples, we're rehashing the same discussion. Obviously, Rousseau played a certain role in college and was extremely productive. The question is whether anything is limiting him in his transition to a more pure EDGE role. I don't see it. He won inside because he was freakishly long and quick with a great motor. He will win outside because is freakishly long and quick with a great motor. He is both developmental and proven.
He's also a year stronger and bigger so he should have a big combine/pro day. NFL teams are going to get 1 look at this dinosaur and think they've just found gold.
 

JD08

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If Jaelan is the only other EDGE in the conversation, I agree with you. I have them neck-and-neck and pegged Jaelan Phillips as a first round-type player after four spring practices. The guy is unreal. My issue is that people are forgetting how unique Rousseau is.

As for your examples, we're rehashing the same discussion. Obviously, Rousseau played a certain role in college and was extremely productive. The question is whether anything is limiting him in his transition to a more pure EDGE role. I don't see it. He won inside because he was freakishly long and quick with a great motor. He will win outside because is freakishly long and quick with a great motor. He is both developmental and proven.
This is the damage from opting out. It's recency bias.
 

BoxingRobes

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If Jaelan is the only other EDGE in the conversation, I agree with you. I have them neck-and-neck and pegged Jaelan Phillips as a first round-type player after four spring practices. The guy is unreal. My issue is that people are forgetting how unique Rousseau is.

As for your examples, we're rehashing the same discussion. Obviously, Rousseau played a certain role in college and was extremely productive. The question is whether anything is limiting him in his transition to a more pure EDGE role. I don't see it. He won inside because he was freakishly long and quick with a great motor. He will win outside because is freakishly long and quick with a great motor. He is both developmental and proven.

I think we're over-stating how unique he is. Just look at the breadth of comparisons that have been made on him ranging all over the map from All-Pros to backups. I think his production is very unique for a player of his type and use-case.

I think you really need to check out some of the tape again. Just to sum up my thoughts -- I think he's a R1 guy, I think his developmental curve as a pass rusher from the EDGE spot is a bit longer than it would be on the inside as a 34 end. If the rumors are true that he's up around 275 mark (read reports he's gained 20+ in his long offseason), I think a 280lb (and growing) version of the guy we saw at Miami where he won a lot more as an interior disruptor with a motor whose athleticism was trump card and is tough enough work well through trash and his long reach disrupted running lanes and passing lanes plays. On the tape, I see a very very raw EDGE rusher that - I mean, sure, could definitely be an EDGE guy, but as I outlined before with say - Marcus Davenport - the curve to get there could be very long. I just think you need a lot more in your toolbox than being long, quick, with a great motor on the outside. That has made him a nice run defender...the tape shows he's got a lot that needs to be worked on to develop as a pass rusher from the outside. He had like 425 snaps from L-EDGE, and I believe only 3 of his 15.5 sacks came against a tackle (Duke, Pitt, LaTech) and a large portion of his sacks were clean ups and unblocked (believe I saw on Twitter that over half of them were). I agree though...he's developmental and proven. But IMO, developmental on the outside, proven on the inside...throw some weight on'em and move'em around between the tackles on most downs.
 

DMoney

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Just look at the breadth of comparisons that have been made on him ranging all over the map from All-Pros to backups.
I feel good about my comp for him: Chandler Jones. He was a guy who had average burst, freakish length, very good quickness and coordination for his height. I would not be surprised to see Rousseau turn in very similar numbers:

Chandler Jones- 6'5.5, 266 pounds, 4.77 forty (1.66 split), 4.38 shuttle

Notice where Jones is lined up on the first clip of this highlight reel:

 

HighSeas

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He opted out because his mom was a Covid nurse. Don’t think it was a pure business decision on his part. He still should be the first edge off the board. I get the sense that the NFL types (Jeremiah, Brooks, “anonymous sources”) are higher on him than the Internet scouts. Doesn’t mean NFL is necessarily right, but it should be more predictive of draft spot.

As for his production coming on the interior, he did what he was asked to do. I don’t see anything physically that tells me he can’t get it done just as well on the edge. Michigan moved Paye around everywhere and he still couldn’t get the QB on the ground like Rousseau.
I know his story. It's noble of him to want to take care of his parents but it's a regrettable financial decision. If he cost himself millions in signing bonus $ to spare his mom 3-4 months working as a nurse...yikes.

He had plenty of edge opportunities and didn't do much. I do see physical limitations - lack of snap twitch/explosion off the line and lack of speed to power. Most NFL OTs are really freaking good in pass protection and you need a trump card to beat them and create pressures. If you're not threatening them upfield with your quickness and you're not threatening their anchor and you don't have hand use and counters you're gonna get stonewalled. If you're reliant on length and body control and motor exclusively you're gonna be a cleanup guy for the most part.

Compare that to Phillips who has pretty good snap quickness, very physical and explosive bullrush, has inside counters and has the footwork and flexibility to fake toward the mid-frame then work outside and clear his hands while cornering effectively in one fluid motion...there's no comparison.
 

BoxingRobes

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I know his story. It's noble of him to want to take care of his parents but it's a regrettable financial decision. If he cost himself millions in signing bonus $ to spare his mom 3-4 months working as a nurse...yikes.

He had plenty of edge opportunities and didn't do much. I do see physical limitations - lack of snap twitch/explosion off the line and lack of speed to power. Most NFL OTs are really freaking good in pass protection and you need a trump card to beat them and create pressures. If you're not threatening them upfield with your quickness and you're not threatening their anchor and you don't have hand use and counters you're gonna get stonewalled. If you're reliant on length and body control and motor exclusively you're gonna be a cleanup guy for the most part.

Compare that to Phillips who has pretty good snap quickness, very physical and explosive bullrush, has inside counters and has the footwork and flexibility to fake toward the mid-frame then work outside and clear his hands while cornering effectively in one fluid motion...there's no comparison.
This is one of the things I've been saying.

I know its hard for some to try and give context to 15.5 sacks, but a lot of his plays were cleanup plays or unblocked plays.

I think you and I are seeing a lot of things when you pop on Rousseau film.
 
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