DMoney said:

CTCANE said:

Good writeup but I don't recall Santonio Holmes playing DL or even attending Miami. You meant Santonio Thomas.

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Yes, I did. I drink too much. How are there two kids from the muck named Santonio?

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Port Knox said:

How are we supposed to know just how good our guys are if they get repremanded for making good plays that aren't scripted. Luther Robinson was all over the place making plays aginst BC, only to be knocked by the coaches.

All I'm saying is, how do we know how good our guys really are with this read and react BS?

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Port Knox said:

How are we supposed to know just how good our guys are if they get repremanded for making good plays that aren't scripted. Luther Robinson was all over the place making plays aginst BC, only to be knocked by the coaches.

All I'm saying is, how do we know how good our guys really are with this read and react BS?

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Pennmed Canefan said:

There are a couple of things worth pointing out here that go beyond the names. One is that the 2000 DL and defense actually had some strengths. Namely, their DL was worthless in terms of a pass rush but they could stop the run. They had solid size and they were narrow split so they could accomplish that task. Secondly, that defense had a very good back 7--the likes of Reed, Blades, James Lewis, Morgan, Rumph, Myers, Buchanon, Campbell. Our back 7 has yet to establish itself as anything other than mediocre. We don't yet have a unit that we can rely on. Third, that team had a DC named Schiano. What they lacked in pass rush he made up for with creative blitzing--he could do that because he had an excellent back 7 and a smart team. We probably have neither, and I'm not sure that D'Onofrio is anywhere near Schiano.

Also, the leap from 2000 to 2001 in terms of the DL was also about the scheme. We were a narrow split team that relied on stopping run and employing blitzes. Shannon came after that year and turned us basically into a wide split, upfield, bump and run team that was aggressive as all **** and rarely blitzed. It wasn't just that the DE's came. It was that they came and plugged into a system that turned them completely loose. That also benefitted guys like Joseph, Jamaal Green, Corny Green, and Walters who were already around. Wilfork can play in whatever it probably didn't matter much for him. Shannon sacrificed run defense but played into the athleticism and speed on the DL.

My best hope for this DL and team is something of a poor man's 2000 unit--one where the front 4 alone can't pressure but can at least stop the run. Then D'Onofrio's job is to figure out how to get pressure without totally compromising his back 7. I don't expect that we'll be anywhere near what that team was defensively but we're starting at 116 or whatever. If we can get to 50 that'd be about all I expect from this bunch.

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AUcane said:

Pennmed Canefan said:

There are a couple of things worth pointing out here that go beyond the names. One is that the 2000 DL and defense actually had some strengths. Namely, their DL was worthless in terms of a pass rush but they could stop the run. They had solid size and they were narrow split so they could accomplish that task. Secondly, that defense had a very good back 7--the likes of Reed, Blades, James Lewis, Morgan, Rumph, Myers, Buchanon, Campbell. Our back 7 has yet to establish itself as anything other than mediocre. We don't yet have a unit that we can rely on. Third, that team had a DC named Schiano. What they lacked in pass rush he made up for with creative blitzing--he could do that because he had an excellent back 7 and a smart team. We probably have neither, and I'm not sure that D'Onofrio is anywhere near Schiano.

Also, the leap from 2000 to 2001 in terms of the DL was also about the scheme. We were a narrow split team that relied on stopping run and employing blitzes. Shannon came after that year and turned us basically into a wide split, upfield, bump and run team that was aggressive as all **** and rarely blitzed. It wasn't just that the DE's came. It was that they came and plugged into a system that turned them completely loose. That also benefitted guys like Joseph, Jamaal Green, Corny Green, and Walters who were already around. Wilfork can play in whatever it probably didn't matter much for him. Shannon sacrificed run defense but played into the athleticism and speed on the DL.

My best hope for this DL and team is something of a poor man's 2000 unit--one where the front 4 alone can't pressure but can at least stop the run. Then D'Onofrio's job is to figure out how to get pressure without totally compromising his back 7. I don't expect that we'll be anywhere near what that team was defensively but we're starting at 116 or whatever. If we can get to 50 that'd be about all I expect from this bunch.

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All good points but one thing IO'd like to comment on - you mentioned that scheme was the big change b/w years. yes, this is true, but we couldn't have that scheme change without Williams and McDougle. If we went scheme change in 2000, we would have been even more ineffective. Williams and McD changed the landscape of our defense. People forget that McD had 49 QB hurries in his first year of D1A football. That is unprecedented. The amount of chaos that guy created alone was unbelievable.

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Dynasty said:

AUcane said:

Pennmed Canefan said:

There are a couple of things worth pointing out here that go beyond the names. One is that the 2000 DL and defense actually had some strengths. Namely, their DL was worthless in terms of a pass rush but they could stop the run. They had solid size and they were narrow split so they could accomplish that task. Secondly, that defense had a very good back 7--the likes of Reed, Blades, James Lewis, Morgan, Rumph, Myers, Buchanon, Campbell. Our back 7 has yet to establish itself as anything other than mediocre. We don't yet have a unit that we can rely on. Third, that team had a DC named Schiano. What they lacked in pass rush he made up for with creative blitzing--he could do that because he had an excellent back 7 and a smart team. We probably have neither, and I'm not sure that D'Onofrio is anywhere near Schiano.

Also, the leap from 2000 to 2001 in terms of the DL was also about the scheme. We were a narrow split team that relied on stopping run and employing blitzes. Shannon came after that year and turned us basically into a wide split, upfield, bump and run team that was aggressive as all **** and rarely blitzed. It wasn't just that the DE's came. It was that they came and plugged into a system that turned them completely loose. That also benefitted guys like Joseph, Jamaal Green, Corny Green, and Walters who were already around. Wilfork can play in whatever it probably didn't matter much for him. Shannon sacrificed run defense but played into the athleticism and speed on the DL.

My best hope for this DL and team is something of a poor man's 2000 unit--one where the front 4 alone can't pressure but can at least stop the run. Then D'Onofrio's job is to figure out how to get pressure without totally compromising his back 7. I don't expect that we'll be anywhere near what that team was defensively but we're starting at 116 or whatever. If we can get to 50 that'd be about all I expect from this bunch.

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All good points but one thing IO'd like to comment on - you mentioned that scheme was the big change b/w years. yes, this is true, but we couldn't have that scheme change without Williams and McDougle. If we went scheme change in 2000, we would have been even more ineffective. Williams and McD changed the landscape of our defense. People forget that McD had 49 QB hurries in his first year of D1A football. That is unprecedented. The amount of chaos that guy created alone was unbelievable.

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While I would agree both Williams and JMac were important components in providing upfield pressure off the edges, the Green brothers were almost as effective. If memory serves correctly, Williams went down with an injury and the beat didn't stop with JGreen. The scheme allowed the entire front four to be disruptive. It also played to their athleticism. Because of those wide splits PMC mentioned offensive linemen had problems reaching and hooking the front four.

Another important issue about that scheme was Shannon didn't bring down a safety to help the linebackers against the run. Typically, when you see a defensive line aligning in such wide splits, the defense is usually running an eight man front. Shannon always kept his safeties at roughly equal depth, although there were times JLewis/MSikes would shave about three yards off of the FS. More than anything it speaks volumes about the talent level UM had at LBer, as those units during the early Shannon years as DC were asked to squeeze down running lanes and provide tight man coverage.

To answer your question about scheme change in 2000, I think we could have been an effective upfield unit, providing WJoseph played inside. The bigger question would have been the play of ABlades. Blades was basically a linebacker in Butch's eight man front and a liability in coverage. We didn't run much man coverage during 2000, everything was cover-3, cover-2 and inverted cover-2.

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robertpaige said:

Call me crazy, but I think Grimble puts it all together this season.

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robertpaige said:

Call me crazy, but I think Grimble puts it all together this season.

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