forums

UNCONQUERED

Advertisement
Advertisement
dsddcane said:
My brother's for life. We didn't need Tommy or swausey gettin on us. We did that work cause we loved and respected each other. Don't know where we lost that work ethic and respect for our brothers at.
Click to expand...
First thing I thought when I saw the Pic. Are boys the doughboy crew these days. Soft in the middle ...
 
Empirical Cane said:
So what, in your opinion, went wrong?

And when do you think it started?
Click to expand...
I'm obviously not DSD and wasn't there, but I've got a take on that...

As crazy as it sounds, I believe you actually have to go back to the end of 2000 when Butch suddenly left and all of the rumors were saying the admin was going to bring in someone like Barry Alvarez. As we all know, those players talked the admin into promoting Coker so a new guy didn't come in and overhaul everything. That group of guys knew they were good enough to win it all in 2001 by themselves. And they were right! But, IMO, that was the first seed planted of a "the players rule the roost"-mentality in Coral Gables. Those guys made the right decision for that team, and they did basically lead themselves to a title. But then some of the critical veteran leaders on that team left, but that "the players can do it themselves"-mentality had not. That group in 2002 was equally as loaded with talent; also, importantly, it still had many of the leaders from 2001 and still had a work ethic and bond as a team like DSD just described above. That team, as well all know, **** near won it all as well. And I don't think anyone on this forum credits that at all to the genius coaching of one Larry Edward Coker.

But then we got to 2003. You now have the vast majority of the heart of those championship squads graduated. In their place, you have classes of young kids who CAME INTO a program that already had this player-focused mentality, but those new classes had never put in the work like the previous guys to EARN that mentality. They got to see and bathe in all the fun (and you better believe that has a huge impact on a 18 year old kid), but they hadn't done sh-t to deserve to wear that crown yet. That's a toxic mix. Rinse, wash and repeat over 2004, 2005, 2006, etc....

The guys who built the shiny skyscraper are gone. The years of hard work (and a whole lot of stumbling!) that got that previous group into that elite team mentality that made them so **** good are not experiences these new groups of Canes had ever been through. But, oh, they knew ALLLLL about the swagger. This skyscraper is gorgeous! IMO, this is the root of where this bogus concept of having swagger simply by having a U on your helmet came from. But as we all know, swagger only comes into play as a biproduct of being really ******* good on the gameday field. It's not about the uniform you have on. But I feel like that is a cancerous attitude that still permeates our program to this day. It lead to teams full of individuals, rather than teams with the gel and chemistry of the great teams of our past. Players who believed in their own hype, wanted THEIR OWN star to shine, rather than laying it all out there for the common good and making whatever sacrifices that entailed. It leads to a team starting fights in tunnels and then getting their pants pulled down in front of the nation. Dancing on an opponent's logo on the field pre-game like you're the #1 team in the country, only to go get your *** beat by an unranked middle of the pack conference opponent. Etc etc etc.

Coker is a wonderful human being, but he failed miserably here as an HC in terms of the long-term goals. Yeah, he went to back to back title games, but that was for the reasons explained above, not because of him. IMO, the admin also failed miserably for not having the foresight to realize Coker was solely a stop-gap solution for 2001 and they needed an immediate plan for 2002. Now, hindsight is 20/20, and I fully get the concept that you don't exactly fire a HC who is undefeated with a natty in his entire head coaching career. But they should have known what Coker was as a coach. In fact, they DID, that's why they wanted to bring in Barry. And not a single coach since that time has been able to wrangle this mentality back in. Not Coker, not Randy, not Al, not CMR, not Manny. It's been the same dysfunctional problem at its core and has been a cancer to our program ever since that time period. Sure, there were of course other issues like Randy burning bridges with some local HS factories, etc. But I believe the beginning of our downward spiral goes all the way back to those players demanding Coker be promoted and the admin not agreeing to do so only with the understanding it was a one year deal. That moment was the seed that was allowed to grow into a poison.

Now, while it may sound this way, I'm not casting a negative light in any way towards those 2000-2001 guys. They made the right call at the time. They are also, BTW, my single favorite group of football players at any level. But that move back then was the beginning of a fundamental change from a team culture standpoint, from where Butch had gotten it (as so perfectly described by DSD above) to ultimately where we are now. It's a disease that has just rotted us away. The saddest part? I don't really know what the cure is.

So my question for DSD would be... how do we get back there, man?
 
Last edited:
Advertisement
For_The_U said:
I'm obviously not DSD and wasn't there, but I've got a take on that...

As crazy as it sounds, I believe you actually have to go back to the end of 2000 when Butch suddenly left and all of the rumors were saying the admin was going to bring in someone like Barry Alvarez. As we all know, those players talked the admin into promoting Coker so a new guy didn't come in and overhaul everything. That group of guys knew they were good enough to win it all in 2001 by themselves. And they were right! But, IMO, that was the first seed planted of a "the players rule the roost"-mentality in Coral Gables. Those guys made the right decision for that team, and they did basically lead themselves to a title. But then some of the critical veteran leaders on that team left, but that "players rule the roost"-mentality did not. That group in 2002 was equally as loaded with talent; also, importantly, it still had many of the leaders from 2001 and still had a work ethic and bond as a team like DSD just described above. That team, as well all know, **** near won it all as well. And I don't think anyone on this forum credits that at all to the genius coaching of one Larry Edward Coker.

But then we got to 2003. You now have the vast majority of the heart of those championship squads graduated. In their place, you have classes of young kids who CAME INTO a program that already had this "all about the players"-mentality, but those new classes had never put in the work like the previous guys to EARN that mentality. They got to see and bathe in all the fun (and you better believe that has a huge impact on a 18 year old kid), but they hadn't done sh-t to deserve to wear that crown yet. That's a toxic mix. Rinse, wash and repeat over 2004, 2005, 2006, etc....

The guys who built the shiny skyscraper are gone. The years of hard work (and a whole lot of stumbling!) that got that previous group into that elite team mentality that made them so **** good are not experiences these new groups of Canes had ever been through. But, oh, they knew ALLLLL about the swagger . This skyscraper is gorgeous! IMO, this is the root of where this bogus concept of having swagger simply by having a U on your helmet came from. But as we all know, swagger only comes into play as a biproduct of being really ******* good on the gameday field. It's not about the uniform you have on. But I feel like that is a cancerous attitude that still permeates our program to this day. It lead to teams full of individuals, rather than teams with the gel and chemistry of the great teams of our past. Players who believed in their own hype, wanted THEIR OWN star to shine, rather than laying it all out there for the common good and making whatever sacrifices that entailed. It leads to a team starting fights in tunnels and then getting their pants pulled down in front of the nation. Dancing on an opponent's logo on the field pre-game like you're the #1 team in the country, only to go get your *** beat by an unranked middle of the pack conference opponent. Etc etc etc.

Coker is a wonderful human being, but he failed miserably here as an HC in terms of the long-term goals. Yeah, he went to back to back title games, but that was for the reasons explained above, not because of him. IMO, the admin also failed miserably for not having the foresight to realize Coker was solely a stop-gap solution for 2001 and they needed an immediate plan for 2002. Now, hindsight is 20/20, and I fully get the concept that you don't exactly fire a HC who is undefeated with a natty in his entire head coaching career. But they should have known what was Coker was as a coach. In fact, they DID, that's why they wanted to bring in Barry. And not a single coach since that time has been able to wrangle this mentality back in. Not Coker, not Randy, not Al, not CMR, not Manny. It's been the same dysfunctional problem at its core and has been a cancer to our program ever since that time period.

Sure, there were of course other issues like Randy burning bridges with some local HS factories, etc. But as crazy as it sounds, I believe the beginning of our downward spiral goes all the way back to those players demanding Coker be promoted and the admin not agreeing to do so only with the understanding it was a one year deal. Now, while it may sound this way, I'm not casting a negative light in any way towards those 2000-2001 guys. They made the right call at the time. They are also, BTW, my single favorite group of football players at any level. But that move back then was the beginning of a fundamental change from a team culture standpoint, from where Butch had gotten it (as so perfectly described by DSD above) to ultimately where we are now. It's a disease that has just rotted us away. The saddest part? I don't really know what the cure is.

So my question for DSD would be... how do we get back there, man?
Click to expand...

Alvarez would have done a 10x better job than Coker
 
HurricaneHauk said:
Alvarez would have done a 10x better job than Coker
Click to expand...
I agree Alvarez would not have let our program rot like Coker did. However, I don't believe we win a title in 2001 if they brought him in. I'm not sure many of the key guys would have returned (in fact, I'm quite confident some wouldn't have) and he would have changed everything from the ground up. Would have benefited us long-term, I believe, but it wasn't the right move for the '01 squad.
 
Advertisement
For_The_U said:
I agree Alvarez would not have let our program rot like Coker did. However, I don't believe we win a title in 2001 if they brought him in. I'm not sure many of the key guys would have returned (in fact, I'm quite confident some wouldn't have) and he would have changed everything from the ground up. Would have benefited us long-term, I believe, but it wasn't the right move for the '01 squad.
Click to expand...

I don’t think the guys could have declared at that point in time
 
Advertisement
For_The_U said:
I'm obviously not DSD and wasn't there, but I've got a take on that...

As crazy as it sounds, I believe you actually have to go back to the end of 2000 when Butch suddenly left and all of the rumors were saying the admin was going to bring in someone like Barry Alvarez. As we all know, those players talked the admin into promoting Coker so a new guy didn't come in and overhaul everything. That group of guys knew they were good enough to win it all in 2001 by themselves. And they were right! But, IMO, that was the first seed planted of a "the players rule the roost"-mentality in Coral Gables. Those guys made the right decision for that team, and they did basically lead themselves to a title. But then some of the critical veteran leaders on that team left, but that "players rule the roost"-mentality did not. That group in 2002 was equally as loaded with talent; also, importantly, it still had many of the leaders from 2001 and still had a work ethic and bond as a team like DSD just described above. That team, as well all know, **** near won it all as well. And I don't think anyone on this forum credits that at all to the genius coaching of one Larry Edward Coker.

But then we got to 2003. You now have the vast majority of the heart of those championship squads graduated. In their place, you have classes of young kids who CAME INTO a program that already had this "all about the players"-mentality, but those new classes had never put in the work like the previous guys to EARN that mentality. They got to see and bathe in all the fun (and you better believe that has a huge impact on a 18 year old kid), but they hadn't done sh-t to deserve to wear that crown yet. That's a toxic mix. Rinse, wash and repeat over 2004, 2005, 2006, etc....

The guys who built the shiny skyscraper are gone. The years of hard work (and a whole lot of stumbling!) that got that previous group into that elite team mentality that made them so **** good are not experiences these new groups of Canes had ever been through. But, oh, they knew ALLLLL about the swagger . This skyscraper is gorgeous! IMO, this is the root of where this bogus concept of having swagger simply by having a U on your helmet came from. But as we all know, swagger only comes into play as a biproduct of being really ******* good on the gameday field. It's not about the uniform you have on. But I feel like that is a cancerous attitude that still permeates our program to this day. It lead to teams full of individuals, rather than teams with the gel and chemistry of the great teams of our past. Players who believed in their own hype, wanted THEIR OWN star to shine, rather than laying it all out there for the common good and making whatever sacrifices that entailed. It leads to a team starting fights in tunnels and then getting their pants pulled down in front of the nation. Dancing on an opponent's logo on the field pre-game like you're the #1 team in the country, only to go get your *** beat by an unranked middle of the pack conference opponent. Etc etc etc.

Coker is a wonderful human being, but he failed miserably here as an HC in terms of the long-term goals. Yeah, he went to back to back title games, but that was for the reasons explained above, not because of him. IMO, the admin also failed miserably for not having the foresight to realize Coker was solely a stop-gap solution for 2001 and they needed an immediate plan for 2002. Now, hindsight is 20/20, and I fully get the concept that you don't exactly fire a HC who is undefeated with a natty in his entire head coaching career. But they should have known what was Coker was as a coach. In fact, they DID, that's why they wanted to bring in Barry. And not a single coach since that time has been able to wrangle this mentality back in. Not Coker, not Randy, not Al, not CMR, not Manny. It's been the same dysfunctional problem at its core and has been a cancer to our program ever since that time period.

Sure, there were of course other issues like Randy burning bridges with some local HS factories, etc. But as crazy as it sounds, I believe the beginning of our downward spiral goes all the way back to those players demanding Coker be promoted and the admin not agreeing to do so only with the understanding it was a one year deal. Now, while it may sound this way, I'm not casting a negative light in any way towards those 2000-2001 guys. They made the right call at the time. They are also, BTW, my single favorite group of football players at any level. But that move back then was the beginning of a fundamental change from a team culture standpoint, from where Butch had gotten it (as so perfectly described by DSD above) to ultimately where we are now. It's a disease that has just rotted us away. The saddest part? I don't really know what the cure is.

So my question for DSD would be... how do we get back there, man?
Click to expand...
Nah. We ain't never thought we ran ****. That's not the problem now or then. All kids who see themselves as leaders desire a mentor. Someone they can learn and mold certain traits from. Where we first went wrong is when (because we asked for it)Larry took over. Larry had no clue how to be a leader of men. By nature Larry is a quiet reserved dude. His staff didn't respect him and we respected him even less. Then he started getting rid of coaches that we respected. Coaches that demanded and earned our respect. Made us have even more contempt for Coker. Since Larry couldn't delegate responsibility at all we lost track of the program in itself. So when everyone started leaving that knew what was required out of us,dudes that held each of us in check,things started goin crazy. The team lost track of the goals and individuals just started to worry about them. Again the coaches were gone who we respected and held us together. It's just spiraled down from there to all the hires we've made have been from desperation rather than a well thought out move that works for us. The people making decisions are financial and academic people. No clue how to get a program right. That's why lonzo coming in and having real power scared the Jesus out of them. Cause they know he has the ear of the real power and he knows the changes WE HAVE TO MAKE. For obvious reasons that shook all of them. We right this ship ONLY when we embrace change from the top down. That's board meddling in things for their own gain,that's staff getting token jobs just because of the value perceived,that's clicks on the team and no concern for anyone outside of them... We fought for a unit cause we knew that unit represented us. All of these people mentioned fight for nothing but themselves. We gotta learn to have pride in ourselves again and pride in what this U is supposed to represent. Cause this and that ain't one in the same for a long time since.
 
HurricaneHauk said:
Alvarez would have done a 10x better job than Coker
Click to expand...
That's a really clueless comment and shows u don't understand what at that time we represented. Barry Alvarez in the short term would have definitely done a far better job. However he also would've took a culture that was symbolic of us and tore it down. He would've turned us into Wisconsin or Notre Dame 2.0 which was exactly what shalalalala was hoping for. In order to do that they would've took everything we had and said fvck all of yall. Now it's about clean cut and image first and foremost. That's not any kid we ever target except certain Aquinas kids. All the city kids y'all cry we don't get would've said we some Uncle Tom *** people. Guess that works for some. Smh
 
dsddcane said:
Nah. We ain't never thought we ran ****. That's not the problem now or then. All kids who see themselves as leaders desire a mentor. Someone they can learn and mold certain traits from. Where we first went wrong is when (because we asked for it)Larry took over. Larry had no clue how to be a leader of men. By nature Larry is a quiet reserved dude. His staff didn't respect him and we respected him even less. Then he started getting rid of coaches that we respected. Coaches that demanded and earned our respect. Made us have even more contempt for Coker. Since Larry couldn't delegate responsibility at all we lost track of the program in itself. So when everyone started leaving that knew what was required out of us,dudes that held each of us in check,things started goin crazy. The team lost track of the goals and individuals just started to worry about them. Again the coaches were gone who we respected and held us together. It's just spiraled down from there to all the hires we've made have been from desperation rather than a well thought out move that works for us. The people making decisions are financial and academic people. No clue how to get a program right. That's why lonzo coming in and having real power scared the Jesus out of them. Cause they know he has the ear of the real power and he knows the changes WE HAVE TO MAKE. For obvious reasons that shook all of them. We right this ship ONLY when we embrace change from the top down. That's board meddling in things for their own gain,that's staff getting token jobs just because of the value perceived,that's clicks on the team and no concern for anyone outside of them... We fought for a unit cause we knew that unit represented us. All of these people mentioned fight for nothing but themselves. We gotta learn to have pride in ourselves again and pride in what this U is supposed to represent. Cause this and that ain't one in the same for a long time since.
Click to expand...
This is so spot on and 100% Truthful....No more needs to be said whatsoever.....
 
For_The_U said:
I'm obviously not DSD and wasn't there, but I've got a take on that...

As crazy as it sounds, I believe you actually have to go back to the end of 2000 when Butch suddenly left and all of the rumors were saying the admin was going to bring in someone like Barry Alvarez. As we all know, those players talked the admin into promoting Coker so a new guy didn't come in and overhaul everything. That group of guys knew they were good enough to win it all in 2001 by themselves. And they were right! But, IMO, that was the first seed planted of a "the players rule the roost"-mentality in Coral Gables. Those guys made the right decision for that team, and they did basically lead themselves to a title. But then some of the critical veteran leaders on that team left, but that "players rule the roost"-mentality did not. That group in 2002 was equally as loaded with talent; also, importantly, it still had many of the leaders from 2001 and still had a work ethic and bond as a team like DSD just described above. That team, as well all know, **** near won it all as well. And I don't think anyone on this forum credits that at all to the genius coaching of one Larry Edward Coker.

But then we got to 2003. You now have the vast majority of the heart of those championship squads graduated. In their place, you have classes of young kids who CAME INTO a program that already had this "all about the players"-mentality, but those new classes had never put in the work like the previous guys to EARN that mentality. They got to see and bathe in all the fun (and you better believe that has a huge impact on a 18 year old kid), but they hadn't done sh-t to deserve to wear that crown yet. That's a toxic mix. Rinse, wash and repeat over 2004, 2005, 2006, etc....

The guys who built the shiny skyscraper are gone. The years of hard work (and a whole lot of stumbling!) that got that previous group into that elite team mentality that made them so **** good are not experiences these new groups of Canes had ever been through. But, oh, they knew ALLLLL about the swagger . This skyscraper is gorgeous! IMO, this is the root of where this bogus concept of having swagger simply by having a U on your helmet came from. But as we all know, swagger only comes into play as a biproduct of being really ******* good on the gameday field. It's not about the uniform you have on. But I feel like that is a cancerous attitude that still permeates our program to this day. It lead to teams full of individuals, rather than teams with the gel and chemistry of the great teams of our past. Players who believed in their own hype, wanted THEIR OWN star to shine, rather than laying it all out there for the common good and making whatever sacrifices that entailed. It leads to a team starting fights in tunnels and then getting their pants pulled down in front of the nation. Dancing on an opponent's logo on the field pre-game like you're the #1 team in the country, only to go get your *** beat by an unranked middle of the pack conference opponent. Etc etc etc.

Coker is a wonderful human being, but he failed miserably here as an HC in terms of the long-term goals. Yeah, he went to back to back title games, but that was for the reasons explained above, not because of him. IMO, the admin also failed miserably for not having the foresight to realize Coker was solely a stop-gap solution for 2001 and they needed an immediate plan for 2002. Now, hindsight is 20/20, and I fully get the concept that you don't exactly fire a HC who is undefeated with a natty in his entire head coaching career. But they should have known what was Coker was as a coach. In fact, they DID, that's why they wanted to bring in Barry. And not a single coach since that time has been able to wrangle this mentality back in. Not Coker, not Randy, not Al, not CMR, not Manny. It's been the same dysfunctional problem at its core and has been a cancer to our program ever since that time period.

Sure, there were of course other issues like Randy burning bridges with some local HS factories, etc. But as crazy as it sounds, I believe the beginning of our downward spiral goes all the way back to those players demanding Coker be promoted and the admin not agreeing to do so only with the understanding it was a one year deal. Now, while it may sound this way, I'm not casting a negative light in any way towards those 2000-2001 guys. They made the right call at the time. They are also, BTW, my single favorite group of football players at any level. But that move back then was the beginning of a fundamental change from a team culture standpoint, from where Butch had gotten it (as so perfectly described by DSD above) to ultimately where we are now. It's a disease that has just rotted us away. The saddest part? I don't really know what the cure is.

So my question for DSD would be... how do we get back there, man?
Click to expand...
MODS:
Permanently Pin 👆 On The Homepage

Also, before allowing any account full registration privildges, above is mandatory reading with a test.
 
Advertisement
Back
Top