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UM (Michigan) in big trouble ?

Shogungts said:
As AtlAtty pointed out, there are rules against sending staff members to opposing teams' games and then the other for recording. Think of this like the Astros situation in baseball... all of the teams try to steal each others signs, but they took it to another level.
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So, basically, they were sloppy with their cheating and got caught.
 
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AtlAtty said:
Thus far there are 2 violations. One for in-person scouting and another for recording. There rules we put in place in the 90’s because not every team could afford in-person scouting, and every team had access to video recordings of games which typically do not include recordings of team signals.

I tihnk the NC2A and Big Ten take this issue much more seriously than we understand. I would be shocked if Harbaugh is Michigan’s coach next season.
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Considering how Harbaugh already got suspended to start the season, I think you’re probably right. This is starting to look like it’s the beginning of the end for him at Michigan.
 
ddann said:
So, basically, they were sloppy with their cheating and got caught.
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Eh... I think this crossed a line similar to the Astros thing. Apparently a lot of the other teams in the Big10 are ****ed just like players were ****ed during the Astros sign stealing. There is an expected gamesmanship in trying to steal signs during a game, but when you start doing things like using cameras or sending advance scouts when it is specifically against the rules, people tend to get a bit more upset. Another good analogy would be the Patriots sending people to tape the opposing team's practices. It's a step too far for a lot of people.
 
ddann said:
Considering how Harbaugh already got suspended to start the season, I think you’re probably right. This is starting to look like it’s the beginning of the end for him at Michigan.
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That suspension was not the NCAA, but Michigan in hopes to placate the NCAA. The NCAA suggested a longer game suspension, but Michigan refused that deal and now the case is dragging out. Meanwhile, Michigan went ahead and suspended Harbaugh for the first several games this year b/c the opponents were all trash; they are hoping that will be enough or if he does have to serve additional, at least he will have gotten most of them out of the way vs ****** teams.
 
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If Bama or Georgia did this, we'd never hear about it. Michigan is flying too close to the sun and becoming a threat to the SEC. That's ehy they're in trouble.
 
I’m sorry but I don’t see the big deal , everyone is cheating or trying to cheat and this is a billion dollar industry.

As Jay said there’s a lot higher level , more sophisticated cheating going on than stealing signs. I mean what do you expect to happen when you’re depending on hand signals in 2023? **** in the 90’s we sent coaches to watch the next weeks opponents, then had every play and formation on a pamphlet handed out game week. That’s the mid 90’s lol.Tbh I didn’t even know this was illegal , I just assumed it was common practice.

Its time to get the ear piece put in the helmets like the nfl.
 
edge said:
Clemson won 2 Nattys doing this. Everyone under the sun knew it. I mean how else do you explain slow unathletic LB’s always being in the right place to make a play? So why is this illegal now?
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Exactly. Everyone around college knew it but now stealing signs is a huge deal. I’d be willing to bet Clemson was doing the exact same thing with a staffer. I’d also bet alit if college teams do this.
 
407cane said:
ncaa was already going to allow mic's in helmets for some bowl games this year.

i think this is what will push it to the forefront and finally make the NCAA wise up and allow communication through helmets like in the NFL. That will completely fix this situation going forward
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Until schools hire hackers to intercept the calls and then radio them to their players…….
 
BS85 said:
If Bama or Georgia did this, we'd never hear about it. Michigan is flying too close to the sun and becoming a threat to the SEC. That's ehy they're in trouble.
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Does anyone think for a minute that Michigan is only team doing this?
Wake up, I’m sure all the big time teams do. I’d bet Bama and Georgia and LsU and other do the exact same thing
 
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sfcane2 said:
Man, the Marine training must be something else. So Stallions was standing next to Jesse Minter during the Michigan games and was somehow at opponents games at the same time. Must be some special marine sauce at play.

Also Ohio State openly changed the signals for the Michigan game just like they did when they played Clemson years ago. In terms of competitive advantage the NCAA tried to eliminate the ban on in person scouting because they deemed it not to be a competitive advantage given all the available video of games out there.
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Why can't people comprehend the distinction here?

It's one thing to scout THE PLAYERS and THE FORMATIONS and THE PLAYS. Yes, game video is widely available.

That is completely separate from SCOUTING THE COACHES. And if the NCAA thinks that there is wide availability of "All Eleven" footage (you know, all those videos showing ONLY the sideline coaches), then I'm fine with the lack of enforcement. I guess.

We have to be honest here. If a school hires a Navajo code talker to figure out the other team's signs, just from standing on the other sideline all game long and observing, there's not much that can be done. But the rest of this stuff is bull****. This isn't "scouting". This is cheating, pure and simple, regardless of whether the rulebook language has fully covered what is happening and addressed the problem properly.

Might Harbaugh escape the worst punishment because of technicalities? Sure. Doesn't make this right.
 
Tony4Canes said:
Well, if there is video of him at games, then nail them. I only read it was his family & friends at games.
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Nope. It's "family & friends" sending him the video and/or observations. He made his family & friends co-conspirators in his cheating.
 
ddann said:
Considering how Harbaugh already got suspended to start the season, I think you’re probably right. This is starting to look like it’s the beginning of the end for him at Michigan.
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Let me add to one point as well. I grew up in Ann Arbor and tangentially know some people within the athletic department. NO ONE likes Jim Harbaugh. He is an absolute horse’s ***. I was in middle school when he was the QB and Michigan, and no one liked him then. But he was a good QB and Michigan won with him. And he is a very good coach and Michigan is winning a lot.

Think of him like the really good sales person who no one can stand at your office. They are invaluable until they become more trouble than they are worth. The Michigan athletic department is already thinking about who they will hire next. They want a championship this year and then all 3 sides hope to be done with each other; school, coach and NC2A.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Why can't people comprehend the distinction here?

It's one thing to scout THE PLAYERS and THE FORMATIONS and THE PLAYS. Yes, game video is widely available.

That is completely separate from SCOUTING THE COACHES. And if the NCAA thinks that there is wide availability of "All Eleven" footage (you know, all those videos showing ONLY the sideline coaches), then I'm fine with the lack of enforcement. I guess.

We have to be honest here. If a school hires a Navajo code talker to figure out the other team's signs, just from standing on the other sideline all game long and observing, there's not much that can be done. But the rest of this stuff is bull****. This isn't "scouting". This is cheating, pure and simple, regardless of whether the rulebook language has fully covered what is happening and addressed the problem properly.

Might Harbaugh escape the worst punishment because of technicalities? Sure. Doesn't make this right.
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It’s on you to do a better job with dummy signals and changing things up. Do people really think every school isn’t looking for an advantage like this? CFB is the filthiest sport on earth. People actually find different ways to launder money to pay recruits to go to their schools lol. The whole thing is politics with pads.
 
Cribby said:
It’s on you to do a better job with dummy signals and changing things up. Do people really think every school isn’t looking for an advantage like this? CFB is the filthiest sport on earth. People actually find different ways to launder money to pay recruits to go to their schools lol. The whole thing is politics with pads.
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Right. What happened to teams using 2-3 signal callers on sidelines? Or using 2-3 different signs?
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
Nope. It's "family & friends" sending him the video and/or observations. He made his family & friends co-conspirators in his cheating.
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And he bought the tickets for the family and friends. I can’t wait to see where the paper trail on the ticket purchases leads but I will bet money that the university was reimbursing him. The guy’s salary was $55,000. No chance he is buying 45 yard line tickets and flying people to games on his own dime. Assuming that is the case and the university was reimbursing him or buying the tickets outright, it will be hard for the university to avoid some institutional charges.
 
Cribby said:
I’m sorry but I don’t see the big deal , everyone is cheating or trying to cheat and this is a billion dollar industry.

As Jay said there’s a lot higher level , more sophisticated cheating going on than stealing signs. I mean what do you expect to happen when you’re depending on hand signals in 2023? **** in the 90’s we sent coaches to watch the next weeks opponents, then had every play and formation on a pamphlet handed out game week. That’s the mid 90’s lol.Tbh I didn’t even know this was illegal , I just assumed it was common practice.

Its time to get the ear piece put in the helmets like the nfl.
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I kinda-sorta agree with you. But...

There are limits. To just say "everybody's doing it" as a justification is too simplistic.

You know, I worked in a sports league where pushing boundaries was commonplace. But when you reach a point where it goes too far, you have to enforce the penalties so that everyone knows where the line is. Formula One just disqualified the SECOND PLACE finisher (plus another Top 10 finisher) at the race in Texas for a failed post-race inspection. And instead of whining and threatening lawsuits, the two drivers just accepted their penalties.

Again, I'd just point out that what you describe in the 1990s was the scouting of plays/formations, and NOT the hand-signals from the coaches. I do agree with you on the acceleration and imminence of putting earpieces in the helmets.

I'd also point out that this hasn't been a problem until the last couple of decades. For most of the history of football, quarterbacks called their own plays OR the plays were sent in (i.e., Tom Landry) by substitute players. Or QBs had playsheets on their wrists/forearms.

If we are currently in a bad time period (lots of sideline signaling, but pre-headpiece-tech), then it is unfortunate that the rulebook doesn't cover this scenario well enough. I understand scouting for plays and formations and tendencies, but outright stealing of signs such that you know the exact play that is about to be run is just terrible. If I wanted to watch a battle to see who was better at cracking codes, I'd watch two nerdy hackers facing off in some sort of computer contest.

I acknowledge that there is a lot at stake. To me, that should not justify the acceptance of cheating, it should necessitate greater steps to prevent the cheating. I might be willing to tip my hat to the creative thinking, but we have to draw the line somewhere.
 
YLCANE said:
Does anyone think for a minute that Michigan is only team doing this?
Wake up, I’m sure all the big time teams do. I’d bet Bama and Georgia and LsU and other do the exact same thing
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I don't care if Michigan is the only team doing this. They just did it more egregiously and sloppily.

This is how enforcement works. If you don't have the manpower to pull over every speeding car on the interstate, then you pull over the worst offenders and hope that everyone else gets the message and decides not to take the chance.
 
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