Some perspective on this Butch situation and CIS

[poncho0091]

Please note that this isn't a "rebuild". This isn't 1-11 Stanford. This isn't a decimated roster. This isn't a program under NCAA investigation. This isn't a program with scholarship restrictions.

This is a team with a roster full of future NFL players that has been undercoached on gamedays and is stuck in a conservative, slow, scared team philosophy that doesn't maximize what they can do on the field.

This program doesn't need a guy to rebuild it and to fix a broken roster. It needs a great football coach who takes top talent and maximizes it on the field. Does Butch's past show that he maximizes talent with results on the field? Does his offense get the best out of the type of crazy speed we have down here? John Shoop?

Many of Folden's strengths are similar to Butch's strengths. Butch is better than Folden because Butch is a much better evaluator/developer than Folden. However, when it comes to maximizing talent on the field with results (read: wins not putting players in the NFL) they are pretty equal.

UM doesn't need a "rebuilder" which is really Butch's strength. UM needs a great HC who maximizes talent not minimizes it.

What evidence do you have that Butch is only a "rebuilder"? He's never been anywhere past the rebuilding stage, so please show me your evidence. It is nearly impossible to expect results until about year 3 when your first full recruiting class post sanctions going into their Jr year. Well in Butch's 3rd year after sanctions, year 6, we went 11-1. Taking over a 3 win team is a 3-4 year rebuild at best. Again, most here acknowledge Harbaugh is a great coach and it took him 4 years at Stanford and they had more history than UNC. Butch only finished 3 years before the sanctions hit.

Miami:
Year 1 is his first year with a new team - there were some studs on the team and the first 10 scholarships gone, but if you want to say he underperformed, fine. BTW, no bowl so only 8 wins.

Year 2 - 20 scholarships gone (estimating on the per year reduction), key players left, still got 9 wins, still won the bowl game, maintained ranked team status all year.

Year 3 - Full 1/3 of scholarships gone, most key players lost, 5 wins what do you expect.

Year 4 - First recruiting class without sanctions. Realistic people shouldn't expect much since we haven't been able to recruit players to replace the ones we lost, but our fanbase is full of idiots.

Year 5 - 2nd class, most of our rebuild players our now SO. and FR. expectations still should not be that high, but our fans our idiots. 9 wins and a bowl win.

Year 6 - 3rd class, key players are JR and SO. We go 11-1 and get robbed of a national title game and is gone the following year.

This progression looks pretty solid to me. The only year where there should have been any expectations are year 1 and 6. Year 1 underperformed and year 6 nearly won a title.

UNC was a full rebuild as a 3 win team. If you want to say he underperformed in year 3, then fine, but we never got to see true year 4 results.

 

[poncho0091]

Butch built the greatest team ever. When was that exactly? Not 2 years ago, not 5 years ago, not 10 years ago, over 15 years ago.

Why did he underachieve at UNC? He had some talent there and still managed to go 15-17 in the ACC.

Imagine Butch on the recruiting trail in 2016 telling kids...hey son, when you were 2 years old, I beat UF 37-20 in the Sugar Bowl. Before you were born, I put together the greatest team ever assembled. When you were 9, I went 15-17 in ACC games at UNC.

If Butch was this football God many on this site and the wEz claim him to be, he would've had some success at UNC but he didn't. He'd have a NC as a head coach but he doesn't.

One of the greatest coRches of all time, Charlie Weis, has the same number of 10+ win seasons as the great Butch Davis.

Continue on with this silly circle jerk over a coach that hasn't had any success in college football since 2001.

Thanks for making all my points. Ignores the fact that UNC was a full rebuild and Butch was only there 4 years and in that 4th years was hit with major suspensions.

Also makes a comparison about Charlie Weis in a time where there was 1 more game per year vs Butch's time. Give Butch 1 more game per year and he might have more 10 win seasons than every coach on your list other than Saban.

 

[poncho0091]

For ****'s sake.

Has this really devolved into a "people who think Butch walks on water" vs "people who think he doesn't walk on water?"

If there's anything to learn from this, it's that Miami's core fanbase just gravitates toward extreme sides on virtually anything.

I don't think it is extreme, at all, to believe that a 64 year old who hasn't coached in a few years should be the fall back option.

I think claiming that Butch Davis is the only coach who can ever win at Miami, is not only extreme, but psychotic.

Who the **** is claiming that. This thread isn't even about hiring Butch. It's about giving the man his due respect. If you guys are going to fall all over yourselves to get on Urban and Saban's sack, show the man who had many of us proud to be canes the respect he deserves. You guys spend your entire time trying to trash a cane who actually brought us success.

 

[capefearcane]

I think that Butch is the right choice to stabilize and revitalize the program. Do I think he will bring us immediately into national contention? No not really, but he will once again make this a good progam that can compete in the ACC and get us in or near top 25 status and an attractive destination for a top flight proven successful coach with a bushel of good recruits and prospects. Not yo mention bringing back crowds, enthusiasm and big bucks.

 

[HarrietTubmanCane]

I agree and appreciate all of the perspective being provided on Butch, but I don't appreciate the disrespect and dismissive stuff. I also don't agree that Golden was the best guy for anything associated with Canes football. What does "he was best to get us thru the mess" even mean?? What did he do, that was above and beyond? Dudes find it difficult to give legendary Canes like Shannon and Butch the benefit of doubt, but gift it to narcs who never really had any passion to lose like Golden. Golden's buyout check been deposited, but Butch (why he left for the Browns) and Shannon had to fight for their $.
Also, I'm not conceding that Butch is this back up plan candidate only. For me, his name doesn't take a backseat to any of the other names most mentioned. This UM HC job has intangible factors attached to it, that those other guys may not be ready for, they aren't quantitative. Butch has handled those unique dynamics before aand still has ties to them, this keeps his name most viable to me.

 

[poncho0091]

Look I want Butch for the job but that doesn't mean it is Butch or bust or that another coach can't succeed here. 1 coach had never made the university outside of Howard schnellenber since he started it remember that,

This was never a thread of me promoting we have to hire Butch. This was about the disrespect he receives from guys who claim to be Cane fans and sure have no problem using the positive results of Butch Davis while trying to give him as little credit for it as possible.

What are you his publicist?

Are you his scorned gf?

Seriously though, it's just sickening watching people bash a dude who actually did **** good job despite unreasonable expectations. You are the same guys who will prop up Miami has X number of first rounders from those years and the GOAT team, but if Butch gets associated with it, you want to make it sound like he had very little to do with it and is some bust *** coach. People talk about our bad fan base, people trying to discredit Butch are a perfect example of why. Guys takes us through crippling sanctions and still gets us to 11-1 with a GOAT team and people say "he's ok, but this new guy who hasn't proven **** against real competition would eat his lunch".

 

[Cribby]

For ****'s sake.

Has this really devolved into a "people who think Butch walks on water" vs "people who think he doesn't walk on water?"

If there's anything to learn from this, it's that Miami's core fanbase just gravitates toward extreme sides on virtually anything.

I don't think it is extreme, at all, to believe that a 64 year old who hasn't coached in a few years should be the fall back option.

I think claiming that Butch Davis is the only coach who can ever win at Miami, is not only extreme, but psychotic.

Who the **** is claiming that. This thread isn't even about hiring Butch. It's about giving the man his due respect. If you guys are going to fall all over yourselves to get on Urban and Saban's sack, show the man who had many of us proud to be canes the respect he deserves. You guys spend your entire time trying to trash a cane who actually brought us success.

Majority of the posters act like if Butch isn't hired they'll burn their bras.

Me personally , I'd be ok with him but after calling a handful of guys to check interest.

It's not like teams are beating down Butchs door, he'll be there and for the cheap. That's just being real.

Nothing I said is bad but will likely rustle some if the cult members.

I'm not the biggest Butch guy, I know he had plenty of flaws to go with the other obvious issues. But by no means a hater. I just won't perform oral on him

 

[canedoit]

For ****'s sake.

Has this really devolved into a "people who think Butch walks on water" vs "people who think he doesn't walk on water?"

If there's anything to learn from this, it's that Miami's core fanbase just gravitates toward extreme sides on virtually anything.

I don't think it is extreme, at all, to believe that a 64 year old who hasn't coached in a few years should be the fall back option.

I think claiming that Butch Davis is the only coach who can ever win at Miami, is not only extreme, but psychotic.

The first line is more misrepresentation of a position. Really doesn't add much. I don't think most posters think it's unreasonable to have "Butch as a fallback."

There are perhaps less than 10 very vocal posters championing that bolded perspective. It's not that difficult to avoid, as few of them offer anything more than one liners that amount to "Butch, bro." If the idea is to build up this enormous straw man to represent what "most" people think around here, then surely it'll be easy to burn down that misrepresented position. Hooray, one side will "win the argument" and be "smarter."

Also, I chuckle at the "fall back option." Fall back to what? Some of you guys are championing Chip Kelly and the like. Who the heck disagrees with that? An extreme minority? Any reasonable poster wants a thorough search. Most reasonable posters want us to shoot big first and see what we can hit. However, I've now read countless posts burning down the position that somehow people just want "Butch and no one else?" It's cheap and pointless. We did a preference thread. A ton of people had Butch at either 1 or 2 - with the qualifier that, if we can get someone like Chip Kelly or Patterson, that would obviously be preferred.

Discuss away, but I think the representation that most people want "Butch or no one" is flawed and akin to picking on the easy target. A group of you guys are some of the sharpest posters on the site. It'd be much more interesting to see a discussion about Butch's noted strengths and flaws (penchant to go conservative, OCs, etc.) vs Herman's strengths and flaws (questions against top competition, small hiring sample, etc.) vs Fuente's strengths and flaws, etc., etc.

Brother LU, little surprised to see you getting frustrated. I think the vast majority of peeps know the drill, nothing wrong with a handful of peeps trolling and bantering with one another. The online maniac polls have a Butch acceptance @ 70-80+%...and of course, a small subset that hate or love the idea of such a hire.

After a decade of some of the worst Hurricane football ever witnessed, negative espn propaganda and administrative indifference. Peeps blowing off steam and whatnot...it's all good.

 

[Thommy30w]

For ****'s sake.

Has this really devolved into a "people who think Butch walks on water" vs "people who think he doesn't walk on water?"

If there's anything to learn from this, it's that Miami's core fanbase just gravitates toward extreme sides on virtually anything.

I don't think it is extreme, at all, to believe that a 64 year old who hasn't coached in a few years should be the fall back option.

I think claiming that Butch Davis is the only coach who can ever win at Miami, is not only extreme, but psychotic.

Who the **** is claiming that. This thread isn't even about hiring Butch. It's about giving the man his due respect. If you guys are going to fall all over yourselves to get on Urban and Saban's sack, show the man who had many of us proud to be canes the respect he deserves. You guys spend your entire time trying to trash a cane who actually brought us success.

Majority of the posters act like if Butch isn't hired they'll burn their bras.

Me personally , I'd be ok with him but after calling a handful of guys to check interest.

It's not like teams are beating down Butchs door, he'll be there and for the cheap. That's just being real.

Nothing I said is bad but will likely rustle some if the cult members.

Exactly. Butch is not a panacea. I feel good that he is there if we cant land someone else.

 

[Cribby]

For ****'s sake.

Has this really devolved into a "people who think Butch walks on water" vs "people who think he doesn't walk on water?"

If there's anything to learn from this, it's that Miami's core fanbase just gravitates toward extreme sides on virtually anything.

I don't think it is extreme, at all, to believe that a 64 year old who hasn't coached in a few years should be the fall back option.

I think claiming that Butch Davis is the only coach who can ever win at Miami, is not only extreme, but psychotic.

Who the **** is claiming that. This thread isn't even about hiring Butch. It's about giving the man his due respect. If you guys are going to fall all over yourselves to get on Urban and Saban's sack, show the man who had many of us proud to be canes the respect he deserves. You guys spend your entire time trying to trash a cane who actually brought us success.

Majority of the posters act like if Butch isn't hired they'll burn their bras.

Me personally , I'd be ok with him but after calling a handful of guys to check interest.

It's not like teams are beating down Butchs door, he'll be there and for the cheap. That's just being real.

Nothing I said is bad but will likely rustle some if the cult members.

Exactly. Butch is not a panacea. I feel good that he is there if we cant land someone else.

IMO he's a good safety net, who'd ever thought that was even a possibility?

 

[Thommy30w]

I agree Cribby. I would still be surprised if they hired him, but its amazing he is getting a look. Also, I think people like Butch because he really wants the job. Its a unique job and not for every coach.

 

[poncho0091]

For ****'s sake.

Has this really devolved into a "people who think Butch walks on water" vs "people who think he doesn't walk on water?"

If there's anything to learn from this, it's that Miami's core fanbase just gravitates toward extreme sides on virtually anything.

I don't think it is extreme, at all, to believe that a 64 year old who hasn't coached in a few years should be the fall back option.

I think claiming that Butch Davis is the only coach who can ever win at Miami, is not only extreme, but psychotic.

Who the **** is claiming that. This thread isn't even about hiring Butch. It's about giving the man his due respect. If you guys are going to fall all over yourselves to get on Urban and Saban's sack, show the man who had many of us proud to be canes the respect he deserves. You guys spend your entire time trying to trash a cane who actually brought us success.

Majority of the posters act like if Butch isn't hired they'll burn their bras.

Me personally , I'd be ok with him but after calling a handful of guys to check interest.

It's not like teams are beating down Butchs door, he'll be there and for the cheap. That's just being real.

Nothing I said is bad but will likely rustle some if the cult members.

I'm not the biggest Butch guy, I know he had plenty of flaws to go with the other obvious issues. But by no means a hater. I just won't perform oral on him

Those guys are much more in the minority than people keep claiming. Even the ones who say Butch or Bust know other's can win here, but Butch is the safest pick right now in there eyes moreso than actually believing noone can else can do it here.

 

[mdpcane]

Cribby said : It's not like teams are beating down Butchs door

how do you know, shorty ... you answer his calls ?

 

[MadCane]

Please note that this isn't a "rebuild". This isn't 1-11 Stanford. This isn't a decimated roster. This isn't a program under NCAA investigation. This isn't a program with scholarship restrictions.

This is a team with a roster full of future NFL players that has been undercoached on gamedays and is stuck in a conservative, slow, scared team philosophy that doesn't maximize what they can do on the field.

This program doesn't need a guy to rebuild it and to fix a broken roster. It needs a great football coach who takes top talent and maximizes it on the field. Does Butch's past show that he maximizes talent with results on the field? Does his offense get the best out of the type of crazy speed we have down here? John Shoop?

Many of Folden's strengths are similar to Butch's strengths. Butch is better than Folden because Butch is a much better evaluator/developer than Folden. However, when it comes to maximizing talent on the field with results (read: wins not putting players in the NFL) they are pretty equal.

UM doesn't need a "rebuilder" which is really Butch's strength. UM needs a great HC who maximizes talent not minimizes it.

This is the bottom line. He is a terrible gameday coach. Always has been. There is a reason he was nicknamed "Botch" during his UM tenure. The John Shoop hire at UNC should indicate to everyone that he doesn't understand offense, and didn't evolve at all after he left. His only strength is recruiting, and his support is coming from people that are hoping that this 64-year old guy can recruit well enough to overcome him being Botch.

 

[Thommy30w]

Please note that this isn't a "rebuild". This isn't 1-11 Stanford. This isn't a decimated roster. This isn't a program under NCAA investigation. This isn't a program with scholarship restrictions.

This is a team with a roster full of future NFL players that has been undercoached on gamedays and is stuck in a conservative, slow, scared team philosophy that doesn't maximize what they can do on the field.

This program doesn't need a guy to rebuild it and to fix a broken roster. It needs a great football coach who takes top talent and maximizes it on the field. Does Butch's past show that he maximizes talent with results on the field? Does his offense get the best out of the type of crazy speed we have down here? John Shoop?

Many of Folden's strengths are similar to Butch's strengths. Butch is better than Folden because Butch is a much better evaluator/developer than Folden. However, when it comes to maximizing talent on the field with results (read: wins not putting players in the NFL) they are pretty equal.

UM doesn't need a "rebuilder" which is really Butch's strength. UM needs a great HC who maximizes talent not minimizes it.

This is the bottom line. He is a terrible gameday coach. Always has been. There is a reason he was nicknamed "Botch" during his UM tenure. The John Shoop hire at UNC should indicate to everyone that he doesn't understand offense, and didn't evolve at all after he left. His only strength is recruiting, and his support is coming from people that are hoping that this 64-year old guy can recruit well enough to overcome him being Botch.

Madcane you strike me as someone who actually remembers when Butch was coaching at Miami. While I wont say Butch is just a recruiter, I totally agree with your gameday coaching criticism. He also made bad staff hires. We had that awful DC before Schianao. Also, wasnt the OC bad before they hired coker?

 

[UMFarArcher]

Claims to sympathize with those sick of the proliferation of Butch cult threads extolling his virtues, claiming he's better than Saban and ignoring his many flaws. Then posts a diatribe rehashing the same stuff the cult has attempted to indoctrinate us with daily and restates the multifold excuses as to why their leader lost so many football games with rosters stacked with NFL players.

Listen, friend. Most rational people understand that Butch has some great strengths. We have acknowledged those repeatedly. However, we have paid close attention to every year of his career and still don't think he walks on water. You're not going to convince anyone who has studied him as closely as some of us have that he doesn't have some major major flaws in his game. So just give it up, friend.

Chise, please.

Have you bothered to ask Butch to walk on water? Anyone?

We just don't know at this point - but I wouldn't rule it out if it will help UM.

 

[TRock305]

The Butch excuse machine churns on. Butch needs exceptional talent to win. It won't happen overnight if he is hired, and there is no guarantee that the administration will be as cooperative, in terms of lowering admission standards for the guys he needs and looking the other way when his guys have problems after they are in, as they were in the 90's or as UNC was a few years ago. Anyone expecting a dramatic improvement in the next couple of years under Butch is likely to be disappointed.

Save that banner money.

 

[Thommy30w]

The admissions standards is a valid point that I have not seen mentioned before. I have always felt like that played a part in our troubles. We lost those kids to other schools. For me, I am trying to have realistic expectations. I think we can have a team that is consistently ranked, and wins the coastal. I think its foolish to expect a return to past domination.

 

[Cribby]

Cribby said : It's not like teams are beating down Butchs door

how do you know, shorty ... you answer his calls ?

You cult members make fun of Mario, saying " no schools other than Miami are linked to his name". Well tell me schools linked to Butch? Name one, send me a link.

I'll bet my sweet *** if we wait to Dec or even Jan Butch will be sitting by the phone, waiting for a call. And will be on the cheap.

Revisit this if I'm wrong, but I won't be.

 

[UMFarArcher]

One thing we don't have to worry about.

Shalala.

She was the two-foot plug up the alimentary canal of our football program.

We can do well next season, but the pepper in our gumbo will be getting top linemen on both sides of the ball.

Butch can do that. ****, can he ever!