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Slow and Strong vs Speed and Power

WildcatDefense said:
We've become so obsessed with bulking guys up and trying to be something we're not with this 2-gap garbage.
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Now it's two gap garbage? I agree it isn't working right now and maybe doesn't match our talents/skill set but that doesn't make a 2-gap scheme "garbage". You're better than that.

Also getting bigger/stronger does not have to=slower. Anyone who has ever weight trained/gained weight in their lives knows that is stupid. Now if you put on a ton of bad weight and don't continue to train agility/speed then you will get slower. Look at the size of Bama's Defense players.
 
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It's deeper than that, remember the NG from Wake is 5 11', 250 on a good day and he wreaks havoc, He's a Tony Fitzpatrick type. Fitz gave Nebraska **** and he was tiny by comparison.
 
gogeta4 said:
The strongest utough guys are corey king n earl moore....I'll leave it at that
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Because in the trenches, SECOND STEP ALWAYS WINS. Gunn was the strongest kid on the team and he combined out well, but his times in agility drills were molasses. King and Moore do not have explosive first and second steps.

Big Vince was overweight at Miami. Shoot, he is overweight in the NFL. He alway has had a cat-like second step.
 
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4Canes said:
It's deeper than that, remember the NG from Wake is 5 11', 250 on a good day and he wreaks havoc, He's a Tony Fitzpatrick type. Fitz gave Nebraska **** and he was tiny by comparison.
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Whitlock has a low center of gravity and he is lightning quick. Dan Klecko gave Miami problems when he was at Temple. Shoot, Matt Walters was an animal for Miami. I'll take quickness and tenacity.
 
Funny how the mini me's are coming out complaining about Utough when Utough was crowned as the greatest thing invented since the Microwave about a month ago! Utough is NOT the problem. Neither is Swasey. Have you seen our guys strength numbers? Everyones numbers are significantly better. Isnt that what you wanted? Now you got it and you complain. Smh.

I agree that our GOAT defenses (like in 89' and 01' and 86') had MONSTER DTs manning the middle. So it didnt really matter that our LBs and DEs were a little undersized. But they were athletic as ****. I THINK this is the formula Golden is trying to get back to judging by our recruiting class. Big and athletic DTs (Valentine, Wyche, Jenkins) and a little undersized but MEGA athletic DEs and OLBs. (THarris, DJackson, DOwens, MSmith and CThomas to go along with AQM and McCord)

**** you seen FSUs defense? They got LBs that are **** near 212! (Terrence Smith and Terrence Brooks) BUT when you got Tim Jernigan anchoring that middle you can really do whatever the **** you want. Same with Easley at UF before he got hurt.
 
In regard to the title of this thread I will say. The GOAL IS TO BE ALL OF THE ABOVE!
High School star ratings do no determine the future success of the player. It simply projects the players ceiling.
ALL of our starting LBs were slow and not very nonathletic BEFORE Utough. At least Utough gave them some size. I will gauge UTOUGH based on what it does for guys like Grace, McCord, AQM, Chad Thomas, Moten, Valentine, etc.

Players who have a high ceiling with above average athleticism who can add weight without loosing their explosiveness. Guys like Chick,Peirre, etc. were never explosive athletes to begin with.
 
I don't have a problem with u-tough. I don't mind us getting bigger. What i dislike is our current identity.
 
WildcatDefense said:
I don't have a problem with u-tough. I don't mind us getting bigger. What i dislike is our current identity.
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Fair enough. I agree with the last few guys that the hope is to see UTough pay off when it's coupled with the talent we need. Guys like Chad Thomas, Mike Smith etc. You can already see it with so many of our young guys, just gotta hope it carries over.
 
Bennubird said:
In case, you did not read all of Gatorhater's post. This part stuck out to me.

"IF he will not change from the passive form he uses, we have little hope and will have to wait for him to leave. JJ's 4-3 was more simple. Line up great SoFL athletes in a base defense and dare the other team to beat them."

Gatorhater said:
sebastian91 said:
Well, IIRC, Jimmy took smaller athletic guys and bulked them up...high school LBs were turned into DL, DBs into LBs...maybe I have that backwards, but I don't think so. If I'm right, then that kinda shoots down your post, no?

Oh, and Fiesta Bowl, January 2, 1987...ring a bell????
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We always moved defensive players forward. Safety LB, LB to DE. The difference is DTs. There we had 6'3" 300lb animals who crushed the middle of the oline back into the offensive backfield. That kept the guards and center off our smaller LB and from double teams on or tall lean, fast DEs. We have not had the proper DTs since Big Daddy. And we have been eaten alive up the middle ever since. Bobby Bowden said if you want to beat Miami all you have to do is take all the DTs. Al's sad *** defense is an alternative way of protecting your LBs-- have your sad *** weak slow DTs hug the oline until the rb is 10 yards downfield. That is our current defense.

Golden's defense is effective against our old teams--urber talented impatient offenses that like to score quick. TN, PSU and OSU used the tactic to beat us. Clearly it doesn't always work because we won 5 titles. Johnnie Majors used it against us first. Rush 3 and drop 8, keep everything in front of you waiting for Vinny to throw 6 picks. Joe Pa stole it from him the next year. It allows endless shorter gains that we watched FSU< VT and Duke take over and over again. Not really suited for our usual type of athlete.

If you are going to use Al's D, the players must be thicker. With the DT in the 2014 class we could possibly convert back to our 4-3 or a more proactive 3-4 like Bama. Howard used one like it for our first NC. It just might not be in Al's DNA. IF he will not change from the passive form he uses, we have little hope and will have to wait for him to leave. JJ's 4-3 was more simple. Line up great SoFL athletes in a base defense and dare the other team to beat them. With the NFL HOF DTs we had it worked very well. We will need them back if we want to play that D.
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Unfortunately we are lining up with avg south Florida and northeast talent especially in the front 7
 
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I think people assume that a bigger guy is a slower guy. I don't agree with the premise. I think a bigger guy can turn into a less athletic guy but this isn't always true either.
 
Some of you guys put too much weight into a S&C program. The number one priority for the strength staff, by far, is to keep guys on the field. Look at UGA. Year in and year out their stars are hurt and cannot play much, if any, of the season. They are probably the worst staff in the country.

A job like Miami, FLorida, Bama, these are the easiest jobs in America. Any coach there will tell you, they get elite athletes and they simply try not to mess it up. When a kid is fast (Duke, Dorsett, Coley) you really just try to work on adding a few lbs and keeping them healthy. ****, i think it was Cochran at Bama that said something along the lines of Saban hands him a Bentley and he just puts spinners of them.

Football players are going to football. The weight room will not change a bad football player into a good one. It's really as simple as that.
 
ucrew02 said:
Some of you guys put too much weight into a S&C program. The number one priority for the strength staff, by far, is to keep guys on the field. Look at UGA. Year in and year out their stars are hurt and cannot play much, if any, of the season. They are probably the worst staff in the country.

A job like Miami, FLorida, Bama, these are the easiest jobs in America. Any coach there will tell you, they get elite athletes and they simply try not to mess it up. When a kid is fast (Duke, Dorsett, Coley) you really just try to work on adding a few lbs and keeping them healthy. ****, i think it was Cochran at Bama that said something along the lines of Saban hands him a Bentley and he just puts spinners of them.

Football players are going to football. The weight room will not change a bad football player into a good one. It's really as simple as that.
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Sounds good in theory but after watching the Shannon regimes complete ineptitude when it comes to S&C I don't think we are putting too much weight into it.
 
Why does it have to be one or the other?

That's where projection and nutrition and weight plans tailored to individual players come in to play. The great recruiters are good at spotting an athlete and projecting what he'll be. For example taking a 6'4 190 lb. safety and projecting him into a 6'4 225 lb. outside linebacker. There are some coaches who are special at this, Chip Kelly at Oregon comes to mind immediately.

But yea staffs have to be able to see a player and have a guage of what weight is good for them to maximize performance. Sometimes coaches put a premium on size and the athlete's body isn't capable of handling the weight they want to add. That's where projection comes back into play...recruit guys who you think can project to meet your size requirements. I've only watched a handful of your games this year so correct me if I'm wrong but I feel Duke put on too much weight this off-season trying to become something he's not. I think he would have been better off at 185 and continuing to rotate carries.

Now I don't know anything about your weight program so that isn't a criticism of anything they are doing, just offering a perspective.
 
I don't give a **** if our players are huge or tiny or somewhere in the middle...but if you are the head coach at Miami you have to build a defense that can stop the spread (Clemson), the Pro Style (FSU, VT) and Triple Option (GT). Figure out a way to get it done, period.
 
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Funny how things turned. Shannon got impugned as a DC for being simplistic now people are saying we just need to line up, be simple, and let the players make plays which was his focus. People loudly applauded Golden for making guys big this year and now they're too big.

Size is not a central issue here. It is definitely true that what Golden seems to emphasize (size moreso than speed) is counter to the miami product. Maybe that will fail in the long term. However, I dont think many of our guys are too big RIGHT NOW. Many of them just lack explosion, and more importantly none of them understand the system. Guys play fast when they understand and attack. They play slow when they don't understand, think, and wait. Our defense is incapable of looking explosive even for those who are because they dont know what they're doing. It can't be that size is really good and then really bad in the same season. We have to make up our minds here.
 
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Pennmed Canefan said:
Funny how things turned. Shannon got impugned as a DC for being simplistic now people are saying we just need to line up, be simple, and let the players make plays which was his focus. People loudly applauded Golden for making guys big this year and now they're too big.

Size is not a central issue here. It is definitely true that what Golden seems to emphasize (size moreso than speed) is counter to the miami product. Maybe that will fail in the long term. However, I dont think many of our guys are too big RIGHT NOW. Many of them just lack explosion, and more importantly none of them understand the system. Guys play fast when they understand and attack. They play slow when they don't understand, think, and wait. Our defense is incapable of looking explosive even for those who are because they dont know what they're doing. It can't be that size is really good and then really bad in the same season. We have to make up our minds here.
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This fanbase has a very short memory. Their minds will change play-to-play depending on the outcome of that play.
 
Gatorhater said:
sebastian91 said:
Well, IIRC, Jimmy took smaller athletic guys and bulked them up...high school LBs were turned into DL, DBs into LBs...maybe I have that backwards, but I don't think so. If I'm right, then that kinda shoots down your post, no?

Oh, and Fiesta Bowl, January 2, 1987...ring a bell????
Click to expand...

We always moved defensive players forward. Safety LB, LB to DE. The difference is DTs. There we had 6'3" 300lb animals who crushed the middle of the oline back into the offensive backfield. That kept the guards and center off our smaller LB and from double teams on or tall lean, fast DEs. We have not had the proper DTs since Big Daddy. And we have been eaten alive up the middle ever since. Bobby Bowden said if you want to beat Miami all you have to do is take all the DTs. Al's sad *** defense is an alternative way of protecting your LBs-- have your sad *** weak slow DTs hug the oline until the rb is 10 yards downfield. That is our current defense.

Golden's defense is effective against our old teams--urber talented impatient offenses that like to score quick. TN, PSU and OSU used the tactic to beat us. Clearly it doesn't always work because we won 5 titles. Johnnie Majors used it against us first. Rush 3 and drop 8, keep everything in front of you waiting for Vinny to throw 6 picks. Joe Pa stole it from him the next year. It allows endless shorter gains that we watched FSU< VT and Duke take over and over again. Not really suited for our usual type of athlete.

If you are going to use Al's D, the players must be thicker. With the DT in the 2014 class we could possibly convert back to our 4-3 or a more proactive 3-4 like Bama. Howard used one like it for our first NC. It just might not be in Al's DNA. IF he will not change from the passive form he uses, we have little hope and will have to wait for him to leave. JJ's 4-3 was more simple. Line up great SoFL athletes in a base defense and dare the other team to beat them. With the NFL HOF DTs we had it worked very well. We will need them back if we want to play that D.
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Sadly there was zero DTs taken in Shannon's last two years and not much before. Grimble left this year so he does not count. 2014 will be the only year Golden has recruited anything out of high-school.
 
Bigger is better now in football. Jimmy changed that thought back then and was right but it doesn't work now and btw jimmy had a 148 iq.The competition is greater and the focus is on bigger kids that can run.
 
LOL @ "it dosen't work now".

Based on ******' what? Offenses spread the ball out more now than ever before. It worked when Jimmy was here and everybody was running the ball but it doesn't work now? LOL
 
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