Read and React

[Gatorhater]

No im not a troll. thank u for clarifying WEZ.I like actual football talk. When i played LB for a season we had a 52 package i played the Wolf ILB. I loved it because regardless of coverage the box was packed and the reads were simple.

I hope i didn't come off as sayin 34 sucks. It doesn't, ideally its very very effective. But it takes a lot of variables and a great teacher.

People have to stop thinking 43 or 34 it's the gap philosophy that dictates the trench play.

"attacking 43" is generic as ****, what if i stand up my super athletic WDE but his job is the same? Is it a 34 now? Or what if i drop my SAM shaded outside the TE? Is it a 52? Some people should learn or listen...

Responsibilities of the front 7 determine the flavor of D not their alignment.

1 gap = wave... Flowing fluid defense... O1 Canes

2 gap = Wall... Bama under saban... These are generalizations of course.

Nah, you didn't come off any way. Just having a convo. Football talk is awesome and I appreciate your comments. You're spot on with everything you said. There are way too many catchall phrases being thrown around. People are just ****ed off because we suck. People have a reason to *****, but I always twitch when people start talking "skeem." Like you said, defenses can be broken up into 2, I think possibly 3 categories: 1 gap (exchange) or 2 gap (control). The third category would be a mixture of the two.

When Jimmy developed that 43 that we all know and love today, he based it off of old school 50 front principles. His over-shifted front (43 over) began as an over-shifted 50. They played with an Over side (9 and 3) and and an Okie side (0 and 4). In agreeing with you, I think people need to understand that there is a lot of carryover in these types of things.

What does attacking 43 even mean?! Just some **** people see in Madden?

Most of us do not have the knowledge you guy do. We just know whne a defense sucks and is not working and we have memories of one that did. We want that one.

 

[DuffleBagYoda]

No im not a troll. thank u for clarifying WEZ.I like actual football talk. When i played LB for a season we had a 52 package i played the Wolf ILB. I loved it because regardless of coverage the box was packed and the reads were simple.

I hope i didn't come off as sayin 34 sucks. It doesn't, ideally its very very effective. But it takes a lot of variables and a great teacher.

People have to stop thinking 43 or 34 it's the gap philosophy that dictates the trench play.

"attacking 43" is generic as ****, what if i stand up my super athletic WDE but his job is the same? Is it a 34 now? Or what if i drop my SAM shaded outside the TE? Is it a 52? Some people should learn or listen...

Responsibilities of the front 7 determine the flavor of D not their alignment.

1 gap = wave... Flowing fluid defense... O1 Canes

2 gap = Wall... Bama under saban... These are generalizations of course.

Nah, you didn't come off any way. Just having a convo. Football talk is awesome and I appreciate your comments. You're spot on with everything you said. There are way too many catchall phrases being thrown around. People are just ****ed off because we suck. People have a reason to *****, but I always twitch when people start talking "skeem." Like you said, defenses can be broken up into 2, I think possibly 3 categories: 1 gap (exchange) or 2 gap (control). The third category would be a mixture of the two.

When Jimmy developed that 43 that we all know and love today, he based it off of old school 50 front principles. His over-shifted front (43 over) began as an over-shifted 50. They played with an Over side (9 and 3) and and an Okie side (0 and 4). In agreeing with you, I think people need to understand that there is a lot of carryover in these types of things.

What does attacking 43 even mean?! Just some **** people see in Madden?

Most of us do not have the knowledge you guy do. We just know whne a defense sucks and is not working and we have memories of one that did. We want that one.

Thats what's crazy... Everyone can tell its something wrong. Al is a lot of things but oblivious he shouldn't be....

As far as the board i just wish guys would either research/ask questions or admit that they are blind raging.

It's nothing wrong with being passionate i am too. I just hate that every single thread becomes muddy simply because if u don't call posters or coaches out of their name in a post ur a slurp.

I want him gone.Period but **** some of the statements are just pathetic


Back to the topic tho... These coaches KNOW what they are talking about on this staff. But i think they hear the noise, and want to prove they can succeed their way...

 

[NVA CANE]

No im not a troll. thank u for clarifying WEZ.I like actual football talk. When i played LB for a season we had a 52 package i played the Wolf ILB. I loved it because regardless of coverage the box was packed and the reads were simple.

I hope i didn't come off as sayin 34 sucks. It doesn't, ideally its very very effective. But it takes a lot of variables and a great teacher.

People have to stop thinking 43 or 34 it's the gap philosophy that dictates the trench play.

"attacking 43" is generic as ****, what if i stand up my super athletic WDE but his job is the same? Is it a 34 now? Or what if i drop my SAM shaded outside the TE? Is it a 52? Some people should learn or listen...

Responsibilities of the front 7 determine the flavor of D not their alignment.

1 gap = wave... Flowing fluid defense... O1 Canes

2 gap = Wall... Bama under saban... These are generalizations of course.

Nah, you didn't come off any way. Just having a convo. Football talk is awesome and I appreciate your comments. You're spot on with everything you said. There are way too many catchall phrases being thrown around. People are just ****ed off because we suck. People have a reason to *****, but I always twitch when people start talking "skeem." Like you said, defenses can be broken up into 2, I think possibly 3 categories: 1 gap (exchange) or 2 gap (control). The third category would be a mixture of the two.

When Jimmy developed that 43 that we all know and love today, he based it off of old school 50 front principles. His over-shifted front (43 over) began as an over-shifted 50. They played with an Over side (9 and 3) and and an Okie side (0 and 4). In agreeing with you, I think people need to understand that there is a lot of carryover in these types of things.

What does attacking 43 even mean?! Just some **** people see in Madden?

I nominate either of these two guys to be our defensive coordinators. I have no doubt they would do way better than golden and Dorito.

Good stuff fellas, very informative.

 

[Dynasty]

No im not a troll. thank u for clarifying WEZ.I like actual football talk. When i played LB for a season we had a 52 package i played the Wolf ILB. I loved it because regardless of coverage the box was packed and the reads were simple.

I hope i didn't come off as sayin 34 sucks. It doesn't, ideally its very very effective. But it takes a lot of variables and a great teacher.

People have to stop thinking 43 or 34 it's the gap philosophy that dictates the trench play.

"attacking 43" is generic as ****, what if i stand up my super athletic WDE but his job is the same? Is it a 34 now? Or what if i drop my SAM shaded outside the TE? Is it a 52? Some people should learn or listen...

Responsibilities of the front 7 determine the flavor of D not their alignment.

1 gap = wave... Flowing fluid defense... O1 Canes

2 gap = Wall... Bama under saban... These are generalizations of course.

Nah, you didn't come off any way. Just having a convo. Football talk is awesome and I appreciate your comments. You're spot on with everything you said. There are way too many catchall phrases being thrown around. People are just ****ed off because we suck. People have a reason to *****, but I always twitch when people start talking "skeem." Like you said, defenses can be broken up into 2, I think possibly 3 categories: 1 gap (exchange) or 2 gap (control). The third category would be a mixture of the two.

When Jimmy developed that 43 that we all know and love today, he based it off of old school 50 front principles. His over-shifted front (43 over) began as an over-shifted 50. They played with an Over side (9 and 3) and and an Okie side (0 and 4). In agreeing with you, I think people need to understand that there is a lot of carryover in these types of things.

What does attacking 43 even mean?! Just some **** people see in Madden?

Excellent post. Everything started out of the 50. Some still consider the under to be a 50, but unless the alignment features a 0 tech, I don't consider it to be an odd front. You're dead on point about that 9 technique though. That tech was essentially a game changer. Also, when you factor in Johnson's wrong armed and other techniques, the birth of the 40 over/slide front truly revolutionized defensive football. And that is why it is so frustrating. Of all places we're running something completely foreign to our history. It's like night and day.

Personally, I view dline play in a simplistic manner. There are two questions I always ask about line play. 1. Are the linemen (even individually) getting reached and handled? 2. Are they getting trapped/hooked and handled? If the answer is yes, the first adjustment will be to either tighten or loosen the technique. Nothing fancy, let the athletes continue their quest of causing disruption while remaining fundamentally sound in approach. The second adjustment will be to lighten the linebacker's pass responsibilities in order for them to be more aggressive at the LOS. I always loved that about Sonny's D.

As someone else mentioned, defense should be played downhill. And, although I prefer the JJ model of defense, it really doesn't matter whether we run even or odd or a combination of the two. So long as we work for penetration, I'm good. Enough of getting shoved off the LOS.

 

[DuffleBagYoda]

No im not a troll. thank u for clarifying WEZ.I like actual football talk. When i played LB for a season we had a 52 package i played the Wolf ILB. I loved it because regardless of coverage the box was packed and the reads were simple.

I hope i didn't come off as sayin 34 sucks. It doesn't, ideally its very very effective. But it takes a lot of variables and a great teacher.

People have to stop thinking 43 or 34 it's the gap philosophy that dictates the trench play.

"attacking 43" is generic as ****, what if i stand up my super athletic WDE but his job is the same? Is it a 34 now? Or what if i drop my SAM shaded outside the TE? Is it a 52? Some people should learn or listen...

Responsibilities of the front 7 determine the flavor of D not their alignment.

1 gap = wave... Flowing fluid defense... O1 Canes

2 gap = Wall... Bama under saban... These are generalizations of course.

Nah, you didn't come off any way. Just having a convo. Football talk is awesome and I appreciate your comments. You're spot on with everything you said. There are way too many catchall phrases being thrown around. People are just ****ed off because we suck. People have a reason to *****, but I always twitch when people start talking "skeem." Like you said, defenses can be broken up into 2, I think possibly 3 categories: 1 gap (exchange) or 2 gap (control). The third category would be a mixture of the two.

When Jimmy developed that 43 that we all know and love today, he based it off of old school 50 front principles. His over-shifted front (43 over) began as an over-shifted 50. They played with an Over side (9 and 3) and and an Okie side (0 and 4). In agreeing with you, I think people need to understand that there is a lot of carryover in these types of things.

What does attacking 43 even mean?! Just some **** people see in Madden?

I nominate either of these two guys to be our defensive coordinators. I have no doubt they would do way better than golden and Dorito.

Good stuff fellas, very informative.

Appreciate that but WEZ, LuCane, CoachMacho are a few who are really on their sht... Me i approach it like a player who wants to learn...

I had a mean pop Warner Defense as a DC but im no coach. One time for You for the respect and those who share info here

 

[CaneSince4Ever]

DEFENSE ALWAYS STARTS WITH COVERAGE!!!!!!!!

What you do up front is a matter of preference.

 

[DuffleBagYoda]

DEFENSE ALWAYS STARTS WITH COVERAGE!!!!!!!!

What you do up front is a matter of preference.

Only in obvious passing downs does that come close to being true

 

[Dynasty]

DEFENSE ALWAYS STARTS WITH COVERAGE!!!!!!!!

What you do up front is a matter of preference.

Only in obvious passing downs does that come close to being true

It starts upfront, but he's right about preference. Imo, coverage begins with designating force players. Gotta start with stopping the run first. We could talk all day about Johnson's 40 front, but the other aspect which is just as important was the cover-2 shell behind it. With the corners being primary force players, Johnson was basically running a nine man front. Of course the same can be said about sky coverage too. JJ ran both with great effectiveness.

Which brings me back to a point of concern. What is our base two deep coverage? Worded differently, what coverage are we efficient at out of two deep? Buzz, cloud, man, or sky? I think no one respects our two deep stuff. In zone we rotate to cover-3, and it is still ineffective mainly because we don't execute anything out of two deep and our field leverage, particularly middle of the field leverage, has been really poor. Our zone coverages have been just horrific. I'll say this, however, about the way we run zone. Until Golden and Dno figure out a way to match underneath/middle of the field routes, we will continue to struggle defensively regardless of what we do upfront. I know penetration will help the defense overall, but secondary play needs an over haul just as badly as the play of the front four.

 

[Coach Macho]

DEFENSE ALWAYS STARTS WITH COVERAGE!!!!!!!!

What you do up front is a matter of preference.

Only in obvious passing downs does that come close to being true

It starts upfront, but he's right about preference. Imo, coverage begins with designating force players. Gotta start with stopping the run first. We could talk all day about Johnson's 40 front, but the other aspect which is just as important was the cover-2 shell behind it. With the corners being primary force players, Johnson was basically running a nine man front. Of course the same can be said about sky coverage too. JJ ran both with great effectiveness.

Which brings me back to a point of concern. What is our base two deep coverage? Worded differently, what coverage are we efficient at out of two deep? Buzz, cloud, man, or sky? I think no one respects our two deep stuff. In zone we rotate to cover-3, and it is still ineffective mainly because we don't execute anything out of two deep and our field leverage, particularly middle of the field leverage, has been really poor. Our zone coverages have been just horrific. I'll say this, however, about the way we run zone. Until Golden and Dno figure out a way to match underneath/middle of the field routes, we will continue to struggle defensively regardless of what we do upfront. I know penetration will help the defense overall, but secondary play needs an over haul just as badly as the play of the front four.

Indeed.

This is exactly why I'm not too optimistic about our defense regardless of what we do up front. From all reports, we're moving to a more aggressive approach up front but that won't change the fact that our Linebackers are still spot-dropping and starring at Quarterbacks. We will always struggle to stop the short passing game. Any OC with wherewithal will dink and dunk us to death.

 

[Coach Macho]

The 3-4 is wack. We barely won our 1st NC running it, and JJ had a horrible 1st year being stuck running it.

The 3-4 is far from wack. It's an excellent defense. Best in football IMO.

Why?

Cause it's symmetrical. It's identical on both sides. This allows the DC to disguise things easier and adjust to different formations and motions easier.

Slide into a 3-4 Under/Over front and now you're running a 4-3. Drop the Strong Safety down into the box and now you're running a 4-4. Against 21 Personnel it looks like a 5-2.

The 3-4 can be any defense you want in the snap of a finger.

I can run 3-4 Cover-3 the whole game and the defense will line-up differently (thus looking different to the offense) on every snap.

 

[Coach Macho]

People get caught up with looking at how many hands are in the dirt instead if gap responsibility. Check it...

My base defense is a 3-4 Cover-3. Our base alignment is an Odd Front. (4-0-4) This is the first defense I install before moving on to 1/4, 1/4, 1/2 and combo coverages, over front, under front, etc etc etc.

Every play we slant away from the OLB that is blitzing. So if my weak OLB is blitzing then we're slanting strong. If my strong OLB (Sam) is blitzing then we're slanting weak. So, although we lined up in a 4-0-4 pre-snap we're slanting into a 5-3-1-5 after the snap of the ball. Our 3-4 turns into a penetrating 4-3 AFTER THE SNAP. My DE's are aligned head-up on the Offensive Tackles (4-technique) but after the snap he could turn into a 3-tech or a 5-tech depending on which way we're slanting.

If we're "pinching" then both of my DE's slant into the B-gaps and it turns into a "double eagle" front.

The 4-3 is an athletic based defense IMO and if you don't have the studs up front you'll get your a$$ kicked. Running a 3-4 slanting defense is my way of running 4-3 principles without having my D-linemen declare what gap they have before the snap. When the offense doesn't know which OLB is blitzing and which way the DL is slanting it causes confusion within their blocking schemes.

The only downfall of this defense in that it requires all of your defenders to be versatile. Both OLB's have to possess the ability to blitz effectively. Both DE's have to possess the ability to play the 3-technique and the 5-technique. Both Safeties have to possess the ability to play middle-3rd or the flats.

I love it though. It's a 3-4 with aggressive 4-3 principles. It allows you to field smaller defenders because you're slanting and using speed instead of playing head-up all the time. It's symmetrical and you can send pressure from any side. It confuses the **** out of Quarterbacks because they can't identify who the 4th rusher is.

 

[Dynasty]

The 3-4 is wack. We barely won our 1st NC running it, and JJ had a horrible 1st year being stuck running it.

The 3-4 is far from wack. It's an excellent defense. Best in football IMO.

Why?

Cause it's symmetrical. It's identical on both sides. This allows the DC to disguise things easier and adjust to different formations and motions easier.

Slide into a 3-4 Under/Over front and now you're running a 4-3. Drop the Strong Safety down into the box and now you're running a 4-4. Against 21 Personnel it looks like a 5-2.

The 3-4 can be any defense you want in the snap of a finger.

I can run 3-4 Cover-3 the whole game and the defense will line-up differently (thus looking different to the offense) on every snap.

Agreed. It's about preference on both ends really, upfront and secondary play. Here's what I would love to see Golden do. If he just insists on running an odd front, bringing pressure from the secondary is doable because it is identical on each side. Great point. It always boils down to numbers. More importantly however, is the ability to better control the interior triangle of both guards and center. If he can fix that glaring weakness upfront, and find a true 9 tech edge rusher-someone who can consistently turn the corner, I think we could be solid.

You're a single high dude. I like two deep. Straight up CB, how would you fix this defense? We've talked about match before, but I can't recall if we talked about it specifically as relating to cover-3. I would appreciate your take. Thanks in advance.

 

[DuffleBagYoda]

I think we look bad in zone because we dont usher receivers through windows like coach said and also because their gap philosophy. No pressure makes any D look worse

I did say before in depth why in theory the 34 is killer and everything coach did say is true. I think that's y Al or any coach likes it... The ability to disguise your base rush on either side. Also the ability to have "even" coverage (against balanced sets) with minimal movement. Even against overloaded sets without having to declare immediately your defensive strength of formation.

In a perfect world i like 1 high man as a base, and pattern matching zone blitzing out of an odd front....Like coach i want one gap principles though.

I like 2 high looks for simple reasons though. you have great ability to defend high to low out of one look. To me ot just depends on their tendency. By just changing CB assignments... Quarters for deep, hooks for medium and flats for shorter tendencies... And of course man if you have the talent to shut down outside. Beauty is that all 4 "base" options are available and can look identical everytime, and morph into each other really easily.

Regardless of coverage you gotta be able to disrupt up front because that's when disguising works and why mistakes are then made.

Its semi early and im rambling but i agree with you both

I just don't like 2 gapping in college anywhere besides the pro level, especially in Miami. If you HAVE TO rely on any one besides the LOCALS (as the rule and not the exception), at any school, you will likely fail. especially when your advantage of fertile recruiting is your biggest cryptonite because you are competing with everybody in the country for your local studs. But here we don't manufacture big strong NTs at a high volume AND we ain't winning AND we're not the preference in places where these types are a little more common... And between 18 and 22 you won't find many Wilforks, Ngatas, Ted Wahington Anchor types... it's a perfect storm for 2 gapping to fail here

 

[Cribby]

People bashing 3-4 need to realize it's just a formation, there's passive 3/4's and aggressive. Just like 4/3 has passive and aggressive .

Al Groh and the Ryan brothers both run a 3/4 but completely schematically.

 

[CaneSince4Ever]

What a defense does to cover the 6 gaps presented by the offensive line (i.e., the tackle to tackle box) does not really define the defense. You still have to align 5 defenders (unless you are two gapping) against their 6 and that's determined by your coverage. Regardless of labels, everybody needs to understand alignment, assignment, & technique...and how they are interrelated.

Also, to clarify my earlier point...what you do up front is not just a matter of preference...it's a matter of PERSONNEL, preference, what you can teach, & PERSONNEL.

IOWs, it starts and ends with PERSONNEL...PERSONNEL has EVERYTHING to do with what you CAN DO.