Post-camp thoughts (long)

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I agree with you. We need to realize that we went from a year losing close games to a year winning them. We really haven’t been dominating the middle coastal teams. We have been one of them in all reality.
This year we need to take that next step and not only win these games but do so convincingly.
If we can do that then we are on to something big.
go canes. Let’s get 10 wins and win a bowl game for once.
And i have made this point too. When we start dominating in the trenches on both side, we will start pushing teams around. We have not seen that for a decade and a half
 
Hopefully chase smith gets moved to linebacker and James Williams is used closer to the line. Can’t have those guys in backup roles if we wanna compete for titles
Exactly. Especially with Kinchens balling out already and if Tae comes back that’s some serious talent on the field together
 
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@DMoney I know the staff trust Flagg‘s knowledge of the defense so when you say he’s improved…….exactly what has improve.
 
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His hs tape was nuts. He may have killed a couple of the kids he hit on it, but I haven't seen anything close to that yet in college. Hopefully, the switch in coaches brings out that beast.
This! I remember seeing the Hall tape and thinking this kid was going to get guys carried out in stretchers with those hits and then never saw it once he got here. Excited to see what we get out of him this year and hopefully he realizes his initial potential.
 
Now that camp is done, it's a good time for a breakdown of where each position stands. This is based on things I've seen with my own eyes and things I’ve heard from multiple sources.

QB- Most important thing first: D’Eriq King looks 100%. You don’t know for sure until live pressure, but the average person watching practice would have no idea he got hurt. If anything, he looks faster due to weight loss. The battle between Tyler Van Dyke and Jake Garcia should go through next year. Different people within the program have different preferences. TVD has NFL physical tools and does everything the coaches ask him to do. He will execute the offense as drawn and performed well in the second scrimmage. He may be even better in live contact due to his strong legs and ability to handle tacklers. Garcia is the more natural passer. He spreads the ball, has a quicker release and is deadly accurate. He was also better in the first scrimmage. Both guys appear good enough to play right now and, aside from Dorsey and Kaaya, are miles beyond our other QBs this millennium at the Greentree stage. This position is a strength of the team.

RB- The top two guys for Bama should be Cam Harris and Don Chaney. Everyone looked good at the second scrimmage, including Chaney and Jaylan Knighton breaking long runs. Knighton is much improved from a mediocre spring and should factor in as the year goes on. Cody Brown is ahead of Thad Franklin, largely due to reliability. Brown showed up in good shape and plays like a bigger Travis Homer. He had several pancakes as a pass blocker and has excellent contact balance. Franklin is a 1K talent but showed up out of shape and missed the second scrimmage due to injury. Overall, this is another strong position.

WR- No change at the top from spring- the top guys are Mike Harley (by far), Charleston Rambo, Keyshawn Smith and Xavier Restrepo. Harley is devastating in the slot due to his combination of vertical speed and quickness. Rambo needs to catch the ball more consistently. Smith made a big play in the second scrimmage and has the best releases on the team. He also needs a bit more consistency and understanding of the position. He's the best overall athlete, though. Restrepo makes plays every day and is a favorite target of all three QBs. He is quick and smart like the best slot receivers, but also brings added YAC value due to his RB build.

Mike Redding needs consistent availability. The three freshmen receivers were the story of both scrimmages and will all play. Jacolby George is the most natural receiver in terms of changing speeds, tracking the ball and winning at the LOS. His big hands and long arms allow him to play bigger than he looks. Romello Brinson is long, fast and tough. He made plays in both scrimmages. Brashard Smith is the most dynamic after the catch and brings a YAC element we lacked last year. He may play the most early due to his versatility as a runner and receiver. Mark Pope and Dee Wiggins could be odd men out with the emergence of the young guys. They may still play due to the nature of our offense, but their inconsistencies remain. While this position still lacks an alpha, #1 X-receiver, it is much improved from a talent standpoint.

TE- There are two impact talents at this position: Will Mallory and Elijah Arroyo. The key for Mallory is just staying healthy after various injuries. Arroyo looks and runs like Mallory, but is already bigger and more physical. He is going to be a big part of this year’s team. The other TEs are more limited and are well behind the top two. Larry Hodges and Khalil Brantley are similar H-back type players. Dom Mammarelli is still working his way back from injury.

OL- Much improved. Biggest difference is at guard. You have Navaughn Donaldson (6’6, 350) and Jalen Rivers (6’5, 325) replacing Jakai Clark (6’3, 305) and Delone Scaife (6’3, 306). Corey Gaynor has athletic limitations but the coaches consider him one of our top 2 linemen going into the season. As Coach Justice noted, he tried to do other peoples’ jobs for them last year. He will be much better alongside the big boys. Zion Nelson should be good to go for Bama. Scaife and Jarrid Williams have been holding down the tackles and both should play at RT.

Depth is not as good following injuries to Clark and John Campbell, who had a really nice spring. Justice Oluwason is working tackle and guard and, while on the shorter side, looks like a good athlete. The backups beyond him are more questionable. Laurance Seymore has gotten the most second-team reps at C and should be a good one with more development. Ousman Troure, Zalontae Hillary and Kai-Leon Herbert have age but haven’t distinguished themselves. Ryan Rodriguez is a likely redshirt, needs more strength. Should be a good technical guard in the future. Michael McLaughlin needs a lot of work, the injury in spring set him back. He has the size. Chris Washington needs more weight. Isaiah Walker is the most talented athlete of the group but the focus with him is health. Cleveland Reed is not game-ready.

DT- This is the most underrated position on the team. The key here is Jess Simpson. Multiple coaches have said he is the best coach on the staff, and those who worked with in 2018 rave about his results. Jon Ford (6’5, 315) and Jordan Miller (6’4, 320) are in the best shape of their lives and have seven years of experience between them. They look like SEC linemen and should contribute to improvement against the run. Nesta Silvera needs to focus on using his hands and staying disciplined within an already aggressive upfield scheme. Jared Harrison-Hunte is a perfect scheme fit with surprising strength. Remember, Jess Simpson recruited him.

Leonard Taylor is as advertised. He made big plays in both scrimmages and most practices. Think a bigger, stronger, better version of Gerald Willis being coached by Simpson. Elijah Roberts is still on the lighter side but is too athletic and instinctual to keep off the field. He consistently makes plays. I like him getting snaps at DE over the course of the year. Allan Haye has good football instincts and has also made plays. Solid rotational talent in the future, although his upside is below Taylor, JHH or Roberts.

DE- I’m worried here, moreso for the Alabama game than the ACC schedule. We need a little more length and size. DeAndre Johnson is probably the top guy and can make plays in the backfield. Zach McCloud is a better DE than LB due to his effort and not having to read/react. Jahfari Harvey is also more OLB/DE size but is very good at redirecting to the QB and making plays during chaos and DL games. All three are below our DEs last year but capable of making ACC sacks in this defense.

Chantz Williams brings the best combination of size, effort, strength and speed. He’s not that coordinated or flexible, which hurts him on the straight pass rush. I suspect the positives will outweigh the negatives. He’s also good at getting in passing lanes (Ben Wallace-type HS basketball player). Thomas Davis makes plays when healthy, despite his height. Jabari Ishmael is likely redshirt. Upside remains high due to length, he can disrupt plays almost by accident.

LB- The weak spot of the team. The best chance for a true impact player is Keontra Smith. We’ve been calling for the position switch for a while, and he has flourished immediately. Verified 4.55 speed and plays fast. Good instincts in the box and made a lot of plays in both scrimmages. Corey Flagg had an excellent second scrimmage and looks like the starter at MLB. He's a solid option for now despite physical limitations. Sam Brooks can jump in the rotation as he gets healthier from his toe surgery. Very physically developed and elite athletic tools when healthy. Waynmon Steed is a solid veteran. The key for him is continuing to regain his pre-injury athleticism. Bradley Jennings is the same guy he was, some physicality but limited. Avery Huff lost some of the momentum he had in spring. Still about the mental game with him. Tirek Austin-Cave made some strides with the MLB move before getting nicked up. He is back and a guy with potential to move up the depth chart. Deshawn Troutman is a true LB but small. Tyler Johnson is still getting acclimated. Both seem like redshirt candidates.

Striker- Maybe the best position on the defense. Don’t be surprised to see multiple “striker-bodies” on the field at once. NFL scouts thought Gil Frierson was one of our best players last year. He has lost some excess weight from spring and should be a major contributor. Amari Carter has been a revelation at striker. Playing closer to the ball has highlighted his strengths (play recognition, physicality) while limiting some of his weaknesses (long-speed, tightness). Some people think he is our best striker. Chase Smith looks like a future first round pick- length, frame, speed, instincts, striking ability. I believe we should move him to LB. He can make a Keontra-like impact there and give us two true talents at a need position.

Safety- Another good position. Bubba Bolden and Gurvan Hall are locked in and playing well under TRob. One of our new staff members believes Hall is as physically talented as any safety he’s ever been around. Kamren Kinchens has been an INT machine in camp and is a favorite of the staff. His intangibles are elite. Brian Balom is almost physically identical to Kinchens and should be a solid rotation guy. James Williams is too special not to see the field somewhere. I can see him getting used how Amari Carter was used early in his career, especially as a blitzer. He is capable of playing safety but is best closer to the ball. Safety highlights some of his weaknesses with long-speed and breaking down for open-field tackles at 6’5. In total, he has a good attitude and can do a lot of different things. Keyshawn Washington looks like a backup type, a more talented Knowles.

Cornerback- We have a very good top three and then some question marks. Tyrique Stevenson is built like a LB and hits like one. He’s also athletic enough to return punts. There are some foot quickness issues against smaller receivers, but he is a baller with aggression. DJ Ivey is the most talented cover guy on the team and the most dominant practice corner since spring. TRob has publically and privately compared his skillset to Jaycee Horn. The ifs—and they are big ones—are his ability to confidently play the ball and tackle in games. Te’Cory Couch is a competitor with surprising length and a lot of life in his feet. Ideal nickel corner. Al Blades is still working his way back. In my unprofessional opinion, he should focus on getting leaner/quicker as opposed to stronger.

Isaiah Dunson is aggressive in run support and has some ball skills. Questions with him are strength and speed. Marcus Clarke flashes but needs to be more consistent mentally and as a tackler. Jalen Harrell fits better at striker in terms of size and speed, IMO. Malik Curtis missed the beginning of camp due to family issues, but can run and made some nice open field tackles in the scrimmages.

Kicker- Andre Borregales looks like the real deal. Different body type than his brother (more of a soccer player build) but same strength and accuracy.

Overall, we are a similar team to last year with some key improvements. First, our OL is more experienced across the board and bigger inside. Second, we added some stud defensive coaches (Simpson, TRob, Shoop) with big-league experience. Third, we are better at the skill positions with high-level overall speed. Fourth, this freshman class looks like the real deal and should contribute heavily over the course of the year. Finally, we are one of the oldest and most experienced teams in the nation.

There are really two schedules- the Bama game and everything else. If we can perform well against Bama, I think this team has what it takes to ride that momentum to real success. We cannot afford a stinker.




Soooo disappointed that you didn't update us on the battle for the punting position...
 
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Really hard not to throw Carter and McCloud (playing out of necessity) in the same bucket with Pope and Wiggins. ****, Ford (hopes pinned on coaching) and Hall (see Ford) too for that matter. If Carter's showing signs at Striker, and reportedly has the mental aptitude for the position - is it possible he's a really good practice player who's picking up tendencies he sees every day? Tough to envision him not getting exposed in pass coverage, so use with caution and play to his strengths because Gil is actually good. Yet Carter always manages to see his fair share of playing time when not disqualified.
 
Chase Smith at MLB is what I want to see. That length and aggression would make him a menace defending RPO’s and he’s got the foot speed to chase backside. The question, of course, is reading those A-gaps. Can he fill properly and not lose integrity? If so, get him on the field there.

Our striker covers like 55% of the time. I don’t see Carter excelling that way, but I’ve been wrong before. Coaches like him more than fans because of the smart part. Coaches love guys being where they’re supposed to be, for some reason even if they don’t finish the play.

The key to this offense this year is the guard play. Will we see improvement with the wide bodies? I believe so, but still need to see it.

A second key is having Brashard in the offense. Getting teams to respect the jet motion holds backside LB and S from killing the IZ handoff so consistently. Opens up lanes that we didn’t last year. Think Tutu and what he did for Louisville offense. Smith isn’t that type speed, but he can run like a RB.

My man D$ says, “I’m worried about DE” and then follows it up with LB is worst position. That’s four of your front seven on most plays. Not great, Bob.

We’ve got three CB’s we can play right now. Whew.

James Williams is what I expected early on. He’s not a safety at this level. Not twitchy enough and doesn’t tackle well in space. I said that on Twitter when he was a freshman in HS and he was not happy. I figured then that you had to play him as a S his freshman year to get him on campus and then move him to Striker, where he belongs. Think of how much you can condense passing windows with Williams at Striker and Chase Smith at MLB. If nothing else, I’m creating a package that gets those two on the field in passing situations. Rush the passer and condense throwing lanes.

The coaches are the biggest additions for this year. UNC exposed our defensive coaches.

Nailed it. We're a better team than last year, starting with the coaches. The difference year-over-year in the OL and WR units is stunning (no injuries please!). The Freshmen are the real deal and could/should factor into winning games THIS season.

But that DE/LB combination is going to cause us pain. I think they'll be the determining factor between a GoCanes season and a repeat of our record last in 2020, even though we're overall a better team.
 
Most outsiders see Alabama and UNC as better than Miami. Fair. I do think 3 games on Miami's schedule are being undervalued by most.

UVA- is going to be tough. They are extremely well coached, and a tough physical bunch. They return their OL who played well against Miami last year, and their QB Armstrong is a gamer. We have played 4 tight games in a row vs. UVA, and I don't see a reason why this year should be any different.

N.C. State-I heard an analyst the other day saying he thinks this is the best team Doerean has had at State. The key is getting their QB Leary back. They have numerous All ACC selections. They should be really good offensively.

@Pitt-At Pittsburgh seems to always be a tough game, and they have their QB back.

The common theme is the QB play in the ACC is going to be very very good this year. Teams like VT and App State may not be walkovers either.
Agree. Most on here think teams like UVA, NCST, Pitt, GT and even FSU are automatic wins. Our talent level is better and we will be favored in all these games but even a 10 point fav will lose 1 in 4 games. Just a statistical fact.
 
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Now that camp is done, it's a good time for a breakdown of where each position stands. This is based on things I've seen with my own eyes and things I’ve heard from multiple sources.

QB- Most important thing first: D’Eriq King looks 100%. You don’t know for sure until live pressure, but the average person watching practice would have no idea he got hurt. If anything, he looks faster due to weight loss. The battle between Tyler Van Dyke and Jake Garcia should go through next year. Different people within the program have different preferences. TVD has NFL physical tools and does everything the coaches ask him to do. He will execute the offense as drawn and performed well in the second scrimmage. He may be even better in live contact due to his strong legs and ability to handle tacklers. Garcia is the more natural passer. He spreads the ball, has a quicker release and is deadly accurate. He was also better in the first scrimmage. Both guys appear good enough to play right now and, aside from Dorsey and Kaaya, are miles beyond our other QBs this millennium at the Greentree stage. This position is a strength of the team.

RB- The top two guys for Bama should be Cam Harris and Don Chaney. Everyone looked good at the second scrimmage, including Chaney and Jaylan Knighton breaking long runs. Knighton is much improved from a mediocre spring and should factor in as the year goes on. Cody Brown is ahead of Thad Franklin, largely due to reliability. Brown showed up in good shape and plays like a bigger Travis Homer. He had several pancakes as a pass blocker and has excellent contact balance. Franklin is a 1K talent but showed up out of shape and missed the second scrimmage due to injury. Overall, this is another strong position.

WR- No change at the top from spring- the top guys are Mike Harley (by far), Charleston Rambo, Keyshawn Smith and Xavier Restrepo. Harley is devastating in the slot due to his combination of vertical speed and quickness. Rambo needs to catch the ball more consistently. Smith made a big play in the second scrimmage and has the best releases on the team. He also needs a bit more consistency and understanding of the position. He's the best overall athlete, though. Restrepo makes plays every day and is a favorite target of all three QBs. He is quick and smart like the best slot receivers, but also brings added YAC value due to his RB build.

Mike Redding needs consistent availability. The three freshmen receivers were the story of both scrimmages and will all play. Jacolby George is the most natural receiver in terms of changing speeds, tracking the ball and winning at the LOS. His big hands and long arms allow him to play bigger than he looks. Romello Brinson is long, fast and tough. He made plays in both scrimmages. Brashard Smith is the most dynamic after the catch and brings a YAC element we lacked last year. He may play the most early due to his versatility as a runner and receiver. Mark Pope and Dee Wiggins could be odd men out with the emergence of the young guys. They may still play due to the nature of our offense, but their inconsistencies remain. While this position still lacks an alpha, #1 X-receiver, it is much improved from a talent standpoint.

TE- There are two impact talents at this position: Will Mallory and Elijah Arroyo. The key for Mallory is just staying healthy after various injuries. Arroyo looks and runs like Mallory, but is already bigger and more physical. He is going to be a big part of this year’s team. The other TEs are more limited and are well behind the top two. Larry Hodges and Khalil Brantley are similar H-back type players. Dom Mammarelli is still working his way back from injury.

OL- Much improved. Biggest difference is at guard. You have Navaughn Donaldson (6’6, 350) and Jalen Rivers (6’5, 325) replacing Jakai Clark (6’3, 305) and Delone Scaife (6’3, 306). Corey Gaynor has athletic limitations but the coaches consider him one of our top 2 linemen going into the season. As Coach Justice noted, he tried to do other peoples’ jobs for them last year. He will be much better alongside the big boys. Zion Nelson should be good to go for Bama. Scaife and Jarrid Williams have been holding down the tackles and both should play at RT.

Depth is not as good following injuries to Clark and John Campbell, who had a really nice spring. Justice Oluwason is working tackle and guard and, while on the shorter side, looks like a good athlete. The backups beyond him are more questionable. Laurance Seymore has gotten the most second-team reps at C and should be a good one with more development. Ousman Troure, Zalontae Hillary and Kai-Leon Herbert have age but haven’t distinguished themselves. Ryan Rodriguez is a likely redshirt, needs more strength. Should be a good technical guard in the future. Michael McLaughlin needs a lot of work, the injury in spring set him back. He has the size. Chris Washington needs more weight. Isaiah Walker is the most talented athlete of the group but the focus with him is health. Cleveland Reed is not game-ready.

DT- This is the most underrated position on the team. The key here is Jess Simpson. Multiple coaches have said he is the best coach on the staff, and those who worked with in 2018 rave about his results. Jon Ford (6’5, 315) and Jordan Miller (6’4, 320) are in the best shape of their lives and have seven years of experience between them. They look like SEC linemen and should contribute to improvement against the run. Nesta Silvera needs to focus on using his hands and staying disciplined within an already aggressive upfield scheme. Jared Harrison-Hunte is a perfect scheme fit with surprising strength. Remember, Jess Simpson recruited him.

Leonard Taylor is as advertised. He made big plays in both scrimmages and most practices. Think a bigger, stronger, better version of Gerald Willis being coached by Simpson. Elijah Roberts is still on the lighter side but is too athletic and instinctual to keep off the field. He consistently makes plays. I like him getting snaps at DE over the course of the year. Allan Haye has good football instincts and has also made plays. Solid rotational talent in the future, although his upside is below Taylor, JHH or Roberts.

DE- I’m worried here, moreso for the Alabama game than the ACC schedule. We need a little more length and size. DeAndre Johnson is probably the top guy and can make plays in the backfield. Zach McCloud is a better DE than LB due to his effort and not having to read/react. Jahfari Harvey is also more OLB/DE size but is very good at redirecting to the QB and making plays during chaos and DL games. All three are below our DEs last year but capable of making ACC sacks in this defense.

Chantz Williams brings the best combination of size, effort, strength and speed. He’s not that coordinated or flexible, which hurts him on the straight pass rush. I suspect the positives will outweigh the negatives. He’s also good at getting in passing lanes (Ben Wallace-type HS basketball player). Thomas Davis makes plays when healthy, despite his height. Jabari Ishmael is likely redshirt. Upside remains high due to length, he can disrupt plays almost by accident.

LB- The weak spot of the team. The best chance for a true impact player is Keontra Smith. We’ve been calling for the position switch for a while, and he has flourished immediately. Verified 4.55 speed and plays fast. Good instincts in the box and made a lot of plays in both scrimmages. Corey Flagg had an excellent second scrimmage and looks like the starter at MLB. He's a solid option for now despite physical limitations. Sam Brooks can jump in the rotation as he gets healthier from his toe surgery. Very physically developed and elite athletic tools when healthy. Waynmon Steed is a solid veteran. The key for him is continuing to regain his pre-injury athleticism. Bradley Jennings is the same guy he was, some physicality but limited. Avery Huff lost some of the momentum he had in spring. Still about the mental game with him. Tirek Austin-Cave made some strides with the MLB move before getting nicked up. He is back and a guy with potential to move up the depth chart. Deshawn Troutman is a true LB but small. Tyler Johnson is still getting acclimated. Both seem like redshirt candidates.

Striker- Maybe the best position on the defense. Don’t be surprised to see multiple “striker-bodies” on the field at once. NFL scouts thought Gil Frierson was one of our best players last year. He has lost some excess weight from spring and should be a major contributor. Amari Carter has been a revelation at striker. Playing closer to the ball has highlighted his strengths (play recognition, physicality) while limiting some of his weaknesses (long-speed, tightness). Some people think he is our best striker. Chase Smith looks like a future first round pick- length, frame, speed, instincts, striking ability. I believe we should move him to LB. He can make a Keontra-like impact there and give us two true talents at a need position.

Safety- Another good position. Bubba Bolden and Gurvan Hall are locked in and playing well under TRob. One of our new staff members believes Hall is as physically talented as any safety he’s ever been around. Kamren Kinchens has been an INT machine in camp and is a favorite of the staff. His intangibles are elite. Brian Balom is almost physically identical to Kinchens and should be a solid rotation guy. James Williams is too special not to see the field somewhere. I can see him getting used how Amari Carter was used early in his career, especially as a blitzer. He is capable of playing safety but is best closer to the ball. Safety highlights some of his weaknesses with long-speed and breaking down for open-field tackles at 6’5. In total, he has a good attitude and can do a lot of different things. Keyshawn Washington looks like a backup type, a more talented Knowles.

Cornerback- We have a very good top three and then some question marks. Tyrique Stevenson is built like a LB and hits like one. He’s also athletic enough to return punts. There are some foot quickness issues against smaller receivers, but he is a baller with aggression. DJ Ivey is the most talented cover guy on the team and the most dominant practice corner since spring. TRob has publically and privately compared his skillset to Jaycee Horn. The ifs—and they are big ones—are his ability to confidently play the ball and tackle in games. Te’Cory Couch is a competitor with surprising length and a lot of life in his feet. Ideal nickel corner. Al Blades is still working his way back. In my unprofessional opinion, he should focus on getting leaner/quicker as opposed to stronger.

Isaiah Dunson is aggressive in run support and has some ball skills. Questions with him are strength and speed. Marcus Clarke flashes but needs to be more consistent mentally and as a tackler. Jalen Harrell fits better at striker in terms of size and speed, IMO. Malik Curtis missed the beginning of camp due to family issues, but can run and made some nice open field tackles in the scrimmages.

Kicker- Andre Borregales looks like the real deal. Different body type than his brother (more of a soccer player build) but same strength and accuracy.

Overall, we are a similar team to last year with some key improvements. First, our OL is more experienced across the board and bigger inside. Second, we added some stud defensive coaches (Simpson, TRob, Shoop) with big-league experience. Third, we are better at the skill positions with high-level overall speed. Fourth, this freshman class looks like the real deal and should contribute heavily over the course of the year. Finally, we are one of the oldest and most experienced teams in the nation.

There are really two schedules- the Bama game and everything else. If we can perform well against Bama, I think this team has what it takes to ride that momentum to real success. We cannot afford a stinker.
@DMoney Is it true that since the kick Andy missed in spring that made the team run after he hasn't missed a kick true?
 
No he won't. They rotate and guys play multiple positions. They'll find ways to get X on the field.
I do think he'll play but remain a bit skeptical since there was very similar buzz about him a year ago. And now there's the 3 amigos and Rambo in the mix...

Just give me this:

E8TytFtX0A0bg4s.jpg
 
Agree. Most on here think teams like UVA, NCST, Pitt, GT and even FSU are automatic wins. Our talent level is better and we will be favored in all these games but even a 10 point fav will lose 1 in 4 games. Just a statistical fact.
Yep. I love the line about two schedules: Bama and everyone else. Just don't lose focus if we lose bad to Alabama. There is a reason it's a 19 point spread. I'm hoping for the upset but I'd be satisfied with a moral victory. Prove to the team (and recruits) that we belong on that stage.

I'd be really happy this season if the Canes win 10 games including the bowl. That's improvement.
 
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