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OT Wisconsin burying Michigan

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Fly1 said:
Lloyd Car can thank Gary for bringing in the talent that helped Michigan to a part of 1997 title. Lloyd Car was a notch above Coker. Dude was given the keys to a Ferrari and he ran it into the ground.

Gary just loved to booze too much
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Still one of the funniest stories I've ever read.

We should be ALL OVER McBurrows, Jennings, and Hood. This **** makes no sense.
 
Boarcane said:
Eric Bieniemy is who. Michigan can give him a talented day one roster and a HUGE come be a college coach contract. He won’t take a college HC job unless it’s an elite one for all the money. It is and they have it. Get him before he’s gone. That’s my number one choice for them. They’re not smart enough to get him....
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At first glance, I like your idea. But I also think Bienemy prefers a pro job. He was OC at Colorado for two years and they were god awful. He's a good coach when he has the players.

Maybe he'd be better than Baugh at Michigan, but more than likely, this is their program ceiling.

A lot of the handwringing about Michigan is this mystique that exists in people's minds from the 1990s. Then, Michigan was a very good- but not dominant- program. The big difference between 1990s Michigan and Harbaugh's Michigan is that they beat Ohio's Taint regularly (and in absolutely devastating fashion) in the 90s.

Michigan has to go out of state to get its best players. It's a major disadvantage vis-a-vis O$U.
 
dstuart4 said:
DC Don Brown gone be lookin' for job come the late December. Worth kickin'
the tires on? How much of the blame does he shoulder for Michigan's performance? The wolverines HC looks like Mork in 2018, Zombified.
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What's the obsession with Don Brown on this board? He's not terrible, but he's a big-time retread. I prefer a younger coach, like Freeman or Barry Odom. Why Odom never gets discussed on this board is beyond me.
 
JeddTheFisch said:
At first glance, I like your idea. But I also think Bienemy prefers a pro job. He was OC at Colorado for two years and they were god awful. He's a good coach when he has the players.

Maybe he'd be better than Baugh at Michigan, but more than likely, this is their program ceiling.

A lot of the handwringing about Michigan is this mystique that exists in people's minds from the 1990s. Then, Michigan was a very good- but not dominant- program. The big difference between 1990s Michigan and Harbaugh's Michigan is that they beat Ohio's Taint regularly (and in absolutely devastating fashion) in the 90s.

Michigan has to go out of state to get its best players. It's a major disadvantage vis-a-vis O$U.
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He’s absolutely headed for the pros. He’s better suited for the pro game too. He, like everyone else, needs talent to win. He’d have that at Michigan.
 
cowboycane said:
People act like Michigan is some heavyweight but the fact is they haven’t been this century. Lloyd Carr consistently was 9-3 losing the only three losable games on the schedule, and now Harbaugh is doing the same **** thing (although this year is a train wreck).
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They are the same thing they've been since forever (with the exception of down years under Brady Burger and Rich Rod), except that they used to beat Ohio State and finish 9-3.
 
Canes2082 said:
Or Jim Leonard the DC from Wisky who i think is waiting to become the head man there when Chryst retires
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Leonhard is a WI kid, one of the famed walk-on to All-American stories at UW, 10 year pro, now a young up and coming coach.

Paul Chryst was a former player and OC at Wisconsin then Barry Alvarez let him walk to (Pitt) get HC experience at Pitt before coming back to Wisconsin. Barry also did the HC in waiting in the past with Brett Beilema.

Im a Badger by birth, Hurricane by choice and it’s split opinion . Lots worried if he left for a HC job he’d succeed and never make it back to UW. Others would prefer he learned the HC role elsewhere and comes back prepared. But it’a pretty much unanimous that Wisconsin fans are penciling him in as the next HC and would be devastated if that doesn’t happen.
 
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305to954 said:
What they do can’t be duplicated everywhere
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Why not?. If you were trying to duplicate Alabama's offensive line, then you'd have a near impossible task of getting top recruits at evey position. That is not the case for Wisconsin as they get mostly 3-star recruits. Any program can duplicate their philosophy, recruitment, and development. It's just a willingness to learn from them and do so. They've built a culture.
 
Here is the deal with Michigan-Ohio State. People are always saying, "Michigan just isn't at OSU's level," and "Michigan has unrealistic expectations."

But here is the thing. Michigan was the better program until the new millennium. The Bo vs Woody rivalry leaned advantage Michigan. Lloyd Carr dominated Jon Cooper in the 90s. Ohio State seldomly won big games between Woody and Tressell. The things people say now about the rivalry simply meaning more to the Buckeyes, the same thing was said about Michigan before 2001.

But then enter Tressell. He completely changed the direction of OSU and the Michigan rivalry. Perhaps forever. People give the credit to Urban and Day. But they just took over where Tressell left off. Tressell got the Buckeyes to believe they could beat Michigan, and to believe they could win national titles. They did both. They hadn't done so before him.

It also just so happened that recruiting and recruiting sites became what they are today during the Tressell era. It changed recruiting trends, and then and now, more than ever before, recruits became interested in going to high-end, winning programs over any other criteria. Tressell may have grandfathered OSU into the elite class just in time, and Michigan was unable to hold on as the dominant program in that rivalry for as long as they needed to.

Without Tressell's impact on the Buckeyes, they are where Michigan is today, and Michigan is more or less where Auburn or Georgia are on the national landscape. But the damage has been done to the Wolverines, and they may now be in a permanent state of mediocrity while OSU competes for national titles annually and indefinitely.
 
section9 said:
Is it possible for us to do something similar to that long term? I can’t see us getting past Clemson without doing something about our offensive line play. Wisconsin has dominated us both times they’ve played us.
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The theory of Manny's defense is difficult to deal with a Wisc. Its a complete mismatch.

His defense is predicated on getting offense behind schedule, well Wisky doesnt care an they are cool with 4 yds and a cloud of dust.

Any predominatly running team will give us trouble. Especially one with the hogs up front like Wisky has.

I dont think we will have a line long term like Wisky..but we could put together 2 strong classes that give good units. The last OL class was a really really good start with Rivers/Walker group and this year being a free year will help guys honestly. Especially a guy like Walker who can just work out and get strnger.
 
Patreek said:
Agree to disagree. Some of it can be duplicated. But some definitely can’t.

Miami might need to double its student body in order to have more bodies to pull from.
Miami would need to make a walk-on program that recruits, coaches, and trains as if the guys were scholarship players.
Miami would have to overpay for a proven offensive line coach to stay long term.
Miami would have to overpay for a proven offensive line recruiter to stay long term.
Miami would have to sit incoming OL recruits for 3 years and the guys actually stay.
Miami might have stop playing a spread offense and install an offense that showcases the offensive line like Wisconsin does.
Miami would have to install a culture nearly the polar opposite of the turnover chain or of the South Florida “all ‘bout me” Instagram warrior dawgs.
Miami would have to have winning seasons consistently.
Miami would have to consistently put some of these OL in the NFL and have them succeed there.


The odds of Miami implementing anywhere close to everything I listed above is very close to zero.
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That being all said we got one of the highest amount of OL in the nfl currently. We just dont sell that..but we surely need to. WWe are getting guys there...i was shocked to realize Tyreee St Louis and KC MCdermott are collecting nfl checks
 
cowboycane said:
People act like Michigan is some heavyweight but the fact is they haven’t been this century. Lloyd Carr consistently was 9-3 losing the only three losable games on the schedule, and now Harbaugh is doing the same **** thing (although this year is a train wreck).
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Bunch of overrated teams in the Big 10 i always say with Michigan being one of the biggest ones. People let stadium capacity and media talking heads cloud perception of those type of programs. They are what they are a top ceiling 9 win team.
 
gogeta4 said:
They are able to redshirt guys and usually start a ghroup of 4th and 5th year players who have been around for awhile. Its been years of that and most schools dont have that luxury. Look at us...All 3 of our interior guys would be on fg units there.

If your able to shirt and keep guys there for 5 years with the right pedigree then you would be able to always field solid units.
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Well under your a analogy we should have a dominant offensive line next year and beyond because all of our starters will have been in the program 3-4 years.

Years in a program is a factor, but Wisconsin is not the outlier. Otherwise, any 4th or 5th year P5 offensive lineman would become an NFL player. That's not the case. Wisconsin develops their lineman into top draft picks. So, the keys are recruitment, development, and scheme.
 
Patreek said:
It’s not exactly rocket science though. They have one of the best walk-on cultures in football. They make guys sit and learn and develop. They bring in athletes who fit their profile and develop them long term. it also doesn’t hurt that for hundreds of miles every hulking brute wants to play for them. It also doesn’t hurt that at this point if you are an offensive lineman with aspirations you know when they offer you take the offer. Just like LSU and receivers and Miami with tight ends.

The culture, evaluation, and coaching aspect is probably a huge portion of the secret sauce that can’t be duplicated.
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You say it can't, but it can. You give no reason to support your position. In fact l, you make mine. As you said, "it's not rocket science"

1. Figure out their evaluation system. Easy to do. Look at the history of their top linemen. Look at their testing numbers. Did they play multiple sports? What kind of player are they mentally? Etc. All researchable. All gettable because these are not the top rated or recruited players. They are mostly 3-star recruits. You need the guys with the Wisconsin traits.

2. Meet with their staff and see how they develop players. Coaching is a fraternity. they share information.

3. Change your culture. This is the hardest part, but if you recruit to "the Wisconsin offensive line culture", you will turn the program in 3 years.

If you can uave the national champion Clemson coaches meeting with Iowa State coaches to learn and implement their scheme, then you can have a Miami coaching staff meeting with Wisconsin to learn and implement their offensive line system.
 
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Jim Harbaugh's seat is scorching hot.. just read a Michigan article and it said everyone needs to be fired. And that Jim Harbaugh's might be gone at season's end 😅🤣😅
 
Number1CanesFan said:
Well under your a analogy we should have a dominant offensive line next year and beyond because all of our starters will have been in the program 3-4 years.

Years in a program is a factor, but Wisconsin is not the outlier. Otherwise, any 4th or 5th year P5 offensive lineman would become an NFL player. That's not the case. Wisconsin develops their lineman into top draft picks. So, the keys are recruitment, development, and scheme.
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They recuit better offensive lineman AND develop them. Im not sure whats your point.

They are in a part of the country where kids that size grow on trees, just like we are smack dab in the skill position capital in the country.

Under my analogy we should/would have a solid offensive line...but would be their 2nd year in this offensive system.

Wisconsin has been running the same offensive system for over 20 years....literally
 
gogeta4 said:
They are able to redshirt guys and usually start a ghroup of 4th and 5th year players who have been around for awhile. Its been years of that and most schools dont have that luxury. Look at us...All 3 of our interior guys would be on fg units there.

If your able to shirt and keep guys there for 5 years with the right pedigree then you would be able to always field solid units.
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CaneSince4Ever said:
Saban brought that style to LSU & Alabama, now He's spread...and He accomplished the transition from Pro-Style to Spread without a bunch of O-Linemen from the midwest.

TBH, I'd rather have our shortcomings than theirs, Wisky & UofM's O-Linemen are just good for run blocking. I watched UofM play Alabama in the bowl game last year, and the difference in speed wasn't even close.
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Not true. Their offensice line play in the NFL and are top draft picks.

Your analysis of Saban is incorrect. They changed their offensive scheme, but are recruiting the same top level guys to block. That hasn't changed. They rely on getting the best players at every position including offensive line. Blocking hasn't changed.
 
Number1CanesFan said:
You say it can't, but it can. You give no reason to support your position. In fact l, you make mine. As you said, "it's not rocket science"

1. Figure out their evaluation system. Easy to do. Look at the history of their top linemen. Look at their testing numbers. Did they play multiple sports? What kind of player are they mentally? Etc. All researchable. All gettable because these are not the top rated or recruited players. They are mostly 3-star recruits. You need the guys with the Wisconsin traits.

2. Meet with their staff and see how they develop players. Coaching is a fraternity. they share information.

3. Change your culture. This is the hardest part, but if you recruit to "the Wisconsin offensive line culture", you will turn the program in 3 years.

If you can uave the national champion Clemson coaches meeting with Iowa State coaches to learn and implement their scheme, then you can have a Miami coaching staff meeting with Wisconsin to learn and implement their offensive line system.
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Number 1 is straight forward and plenty of programs try to do similar things with some succeeding. Wisconsin has been doing it for decades, not one cycle. The other 2 aren’t rocket science either, they come with real costs and real work. Numbers 2 and 3 are nearly impossible for Miami. Manny Diaz doesn’t get to send his boys up to Wisconsin to job shadow their program. South Florida has some of the most athletically gifted hardest working toughest monsters around and is a deep athletic pool. The difference is the culture in south Florida versus middle of nowhere wisconsin is night and day.

The real problem is when Miami takes the 4 star camp stud skating by on talent who doesn’t put in the work or develop. Miami also doesn’t take the 3 or 4 star worker that wants to be here because he isn’t prototype size/speed/athleticism or they spurn him for pipe dream recruits. They roll the dice hard and it doesn’t always work. If Miami went the Wisconsin culture route the team would be littered with undersized or unathletic players who made up for it with work and aggression. They’d also have more than their fair share of Rudy’s on the roster. You don’t get to steal a culture and only implement it for the offensive line. For example a guy like Andy Garcia is a PWO at UCF, not here. Westley Neal, Frank Gore Jr., Gabe Taylor, Tutu Atwell, Elijah Moore, Restrepo, Bandy etc... You don’t get to drop local die hards when the way more talented bandwagon divas want on board.

Not all of those guys blow up into studs or even contribute but if you want that Wisconsin culture you don’t get to spurn local guys that are bought in 100% and will play at the college level.
 
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