forums

OT: Beirut Explosion

Advertisement
Salt said:
I really like how Tetras is coming out of his emoji shell. We may be seeing some development, not sure into what; but development nevertheless.
Click to expand...
It can only lead to understanding and that's a net positive.
 
Advertisement
Salt said:
No personal attacks in my last post. At all. I already gave a rationale based on the use of asymmetrical tactics used by terrorists that includes using innocent civilians as fodder.

Israel does drop leaflets letting civilians know to get out of a building if they intend to attack it because maybe HAMAs set up an anti-aircraft missile battery on the roof of an apartment building or something like that.

But sometimes that gives the terrorists warning too and they just move it somewhere else.

If Israel was responsible (I know it's a big "if") the fact civilians were killed is just part of war. They don't intentionally target civilians unlike the other side. Missiles are fired all the time at Israeli civilian population centers, and terrorist have no qualms putting on suicide bomb belts and blowing up a bakery or a restaurant because they are easy targets.
Click to expand...
I see this OT got hot while I was away. Without reading everything it does appear that many of us, as usual, have declared ourselves correct an all other idiots. We are have "sides" that we take, it is normal. The Middle East has been battle ground since about the beginning of time. "Right" historically goes to the side with the biggest sticks. Once blood starts flowing the idea of "rules" fades under necessity and desperation.

Just the last 100 years of merely the Holy Land is fascinating. Now, I come at this from my own "correct" pov but I will try to be balanced. Terrorism? What is it and where did it start? Most will agree that it is taking innocent lives but the definition of innocent seems flexible. The Brits considered Patriots "tactics" of having snipers target officers to be terrorism. Hum. Flash forward to WWII and Air Marshal Harris declared German civilians legitimate targets and hence the area bombing of residential areas. Back to the Brits in a minute.

The PLO and other Moslem groups certainly are well known for it today. They seem to thrive on a different type of "bombing" and are quite good at it. We of course find it offensive(I agree that is it but am trying to be balanced). Interesting enough Israel come into play here too. Does anyone remember Menachem Begin? He was Prime Minister of Is real and great hero of their battle for a ****** State. He also was part of Jimmy Carter's great accomplishment, the Camp David Accords with Egyptian President Anwar Sadat bringing peace between them - still working over 40 years later( not bad by Middle east historic standards.) Now. Begin himself was responsible for a "bombing" of hotel full of British officers, killing hundreds during post WWII conflict that establish modern Israel. Terrorist to the Brits but national hero to Jews.

Later the Brits became victim to more "bombing" by my Irish cousins during The Troubles. Poor Brits. But wait. before we feel sorry for the Brits, guess who trained the IRA how to make bombs". None other than the PLO. It gets better who taught the Arabs how to make bombs? Yeap, back in WWI the Brits taught Arabs how to make them to bight the Ottoman Empire for independence. Arabs were not shy about killing Turks. Now there were Jews in the Holy land then and they also wanted free of the Ottomans so who taught them? I am not sure but I bet those Brits had a hand in that too.

Now, I have every strong positions on about everything and certainly know who is my terrorist and my hero, but I allow that others might feel different. I am devout Catholic and really respect and enjoy discussions with devout Moslems, but realize we have killed each other for centuries and will again so I do keep adequate suppliers of fresh ammo on hand at all times for them and others.
 
Gatorhater said:
I see this OT got hot while I was away. Without reading everything it does appear that many of us, as usual, have declared ourselves correct an all other idiots. We are have "sides" that we take, it is normal. The Middle East has been battle ground since about the beginning of time. "Right" historically goes to the side with the biggest sticks. Once blood starts flowing the idea of "rules" fades under necessity and desperation.

Just the last 100 years of merely the Holy Land is fascinating. Now, I come at this from my own "correct" pov but I will try to be balanced. Terrorism? What is it and where did it start? Most will agree that it is taking innocent lives but the definition of innocent seems flexible. The Brits considered Patriots "tactics" of having snipers target officers to be terrorism. Hum. Flash forward to WWII and Air Marshal Harris declared German civilians legitimate targets and hence the area bombing of residential areas. Back to the Brits in a minute.

The PLO and other Moslem groups certainly are well known for it today. They seem to thrive on a different type of "bombing" and are quite good at it. We of course find it offensive(I agree that is it but am trying to be balanced). Interesting enough Israel come into play here too. Does anyone remember Menachem Begin? He was Prime Minister of Is real and great hero of their battle for a ****** State. He also was part of Jimmy Carter's great accomplishment, the Camp David Accords with Egyptian President Anwar Sadat bringing peace between them - still working over 40 years later( not bad by Middle east historic standards.) Now. Begin himself was responsible for a "bombing" of hotel full of British officers, killing hundreds during post WWII conflict that establish modern Israel. Terrorist to the Brits but national hero to Jews.

Later the Brits became victim to more "bombing" by my Irish cousins during The Troubles. Poor Brits. But wait. before we feel sorry for the Brits, guess who trained the IRA how to make bombs". None other than the PLO. It gets better who taught the Arabs how to make bombs? Yeap, back in WWI the Brits taught Arabs how to make them to bight the Ottoman Empire for independence. Arabs were not shy about killing Turks. Now there were Jews in the Holy land then and they also wanted free of the Ottomans so who taught them? I am not sure but I bet those Brits had a hand in that too.

Now, I have every strong positions on about everything and certainly know who is my terrorist and my hero, but I allow that others might feel different. I am devout Catholic and really respect and enjoy discussions with devout Moslems, but realize we have killed each other for centuries and will again so I do keep adequate suppliers of fresh ammo on hand at all times for them and others.
Click to expand...
That’s pretty WOW for someone I almost never agree with. Even bringing in the IRA…impressive.

But the point is well received: one Country’s terrorist is another country’s hero.
 
Gatorhater said:
I see this OT got hot while I was away. Without reading everything it does appear that many of us, as usual, have declared ourselves correct an all other idiots. We are have "sides" that we take, it is normal. The Middle East has been battle ground since about the beginning of time. "Right" historically goes to the side with the biggest sticks. Once blood starts flowing the idea of "rules" fades under necessity and desperation.

Just the last 100 years of merely the Holy Land is fascinating. Now, I come at this from my own "correct" pov but I will try to be balanced. Terrorism? What is it and where did it start? Most will agree that it is taking innocent lives but the definition of innocent seems flexible. The Brits considered Patriots "tactics" of having snipers target officers to be terrorism. Hum. Flash forward to WWII and Air Marshal Harris declared German civilians legitimate targets and hence the area bombing of residential areas. Back to the Brits in a minute.

The PLO and other Moslem groups certainly are well known for it today. They seem to thrive on a different type of "bombing" and are quite good at it. We of course find it offensive(I agree that is it but am trying to be balanced). Interesting enough Israel come into play here too. Does anyone remember Menachem Begin? He was Prime Minister of Is real and great hero of their battle for a ****** State. He also was part of Jimmy Carter's great accomplishment, the Camp David Accords with Egyptian President Anwar Sadat bringing peace between them - still working over 40 years later( not bad by Middle east historic standards.) Now. Begin himself was responsible for a "bombing" of hotel full of British officers, killing hundreds during post WWII conflict that establish modern Israel. Terrorist to the Brits but national hero to Jews.

Later the Brits became victim to more "bombing" by my Irish cousins during The Troubles. Poor Brits. But wait. before we feel sorry for the Brits, guess who trained the IRA how to make bombs". None other than the PLO. It gets better who taught the Arabs how to make bombs? Yeap, back in WWI the Brits taught Arabs how to make them to bight the Ottoman Empire for independence. Arabs were not shy about killing Turks. Now there were Jews in the Holy land then and they also wanted free of the Ottomans so who taught them? I am not sure but I bet those Brits had a hand in that too.

Now, I have every strong positions on about everything and certainly know who is my terrorist and my hero, but I allow that others might feel different. I am devout Catholic and really respect and enjoy discussions with devout Moslems, but realize we have killed each other for centuries and will again so I do keep adequate suppliers of fresh ammo on hand at all times for them and others.
Click to expand...

I agree for the most part with all of that. I think the difference is the tactics and who are the targets? If the target is the military or military officials it is different than targeting civilians.

So with that as a caveat, I would define terrorism as the purposeful targeting of civilians to achieve a political objective as opposed to civilians becoming part of the collateral damage.

In regards to Muslims, I agree many are peaceful and abhor the wanton violence. But then again, the founder of their religion was a military leader and warlord as much as a spiritual leader. It is part of their teachings in the Quran and Hadith traditions.

As you are a devout Catholic, I am sure you appreciate the differences in Christianity spreading initially by word and Islam by sword. All it took was a generation after Mohammed's death before followers of Islam were making militaristic incursions into southern Europe in the 8th century.

By contrast, the crusades which were also in some cases very bloody and militaristic took centuries.

Turn the other cheek and love your enemies is an ethical advancement over an eye for eye.
 
Advertisement
UMFarArcher said:
In the demolition/explosives bidness - we have Relative Effectiveness Factors to use in determining the speed of an explosive - and it's effectiveness relative to a standard.

TNT was determined to be the standard explosive with a REF of 1.00, and a burn speed of 6900 meters per second.

Ammonium nitrate has a Relative Effectiveness Factor of only 0.42 with a burn speed of 2550 meters per second.

Not even close to each other.

If that nitrate had been there on that ship - on that coast - at that port for that many years - first, it's absorbed a lot of moisture and isn't anything like ammonium, sodium, or potassium nitrate. Whatever was on that ship had degraded significantly.

Military cratering charges are nitrates - and even then, they impregnate the mixture with powdered aluminum for a more consistent expansion.

When dynamite degrades, especially from heat - it will sweat nitroglycerin - and THAT is very unstable. I used to wipe a drop up with my finger and sling it against a surface - and it would really pop.

Next - with nitrates - and many explosives - you gotta have a flash - a high temperature flash to initiate pristine nitrates to explode - otherwise, it may burn - it may just fizzle out.

Thee were three rapid explosions that kinda look like one. And the crater was centered well inland.

HE tends to blow primarily UP. Nitrates and other slow burning explosives tend to blow - OUT.

Someone blew a storage for a lot of rockets. Lots and lots of rockets.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your knowledge on the subject. But plenty of evidence of fires setting off ammonium nitrate explosions and the explosions being pretty significant without the alleged amount in the Beirut explosions.
But I see your point about the accelerant. From some of the videos it almost looks like fuel air bomb on steroids
 
Tetragrammaton Cane said:
Actually, I still don’t know a “CIS explosives expert”, though like I wrote before, I don’t doubt your experience.

I saw a before and after satellite picture of the area … and I find a ship. I think that’s because the ship there has been disabled. Possibly the nitrates had already been removed from the disabled ship and stored - improperly. Which would be the primary reason, to me, that the crater is “inland”.

A lot of what you concluded in your post(s) is speculation. You may in the end be proven to be right. But when I read more “non-CIS experts“ saying it’s likely NOT (notice the operative word likely), then I don’t have to contort logic, or violate Occam’s Razor, or fabricate a conspiracy, to make it anything more than human negligence/stupidity

View attachment 125966
View attachment 125967
Click to expand...


I probably had the benefit of multiple views of the explosion going off from multiple angles that the other "experts" didn't have.

Three separate explosions.

Three separate high, voluminous columns of smoke after the flash.

Three vastly different, separate colors.

And most important - nitrates do go 'boom,' but nitrates do NOT have a big fireball as was clearly shown.

We're supposed to believe that massive explosion is all due to some dumbasses storing cheap-assed, very old fertilizer in valuable dry storage facilities right next to the docks at a key port? And store it there for years and years?

When lots more badly needed or badly desired products would be better stored in the immediate buildings right next to the docks?

You don't put fertilizer - old fertilizer - cheap fertilizer in a busy port storage unit right next to the docks - for many years - when you can and should distribute the fertilizer around the country to assist in growing food.

Limited storage facilities everywhere else in the world - means prioritizing those things being stored. Things - expensive things - valuable things - that you may want to offload 24/7 - some things under the cover of darkness - and quickly get them inside. In buildings right next to the docks. Where they too, can later be distributed to more suitable long-term storage facilities. Making more room in limited dock storage - to received other more valuable imports.

Dry temporary storage buildings in a port are temporary storage facilities have valuable dry space - and not for what's essentially a load of chemical s * *t. Cheap s * * t.

Keep in mind - we only saw the last half of this event. We didn't see the beginning. The source of the fire. The source of all the early smoke. That had drawn enough attention that later, folks wanted to record a fire - and just happened to catch the explosion.

Something else started the fire. Old fertilizer self-igniting? Full of moisture? Exploding in three rapid sequence explosions? And giving off volumes of red smoke? Volumes of white smoke column? Volumes of a large tan smoke column?

Sometimes we have to use our heads for something other than making faces.
 
The only part my non-EOD expert head can't figure out is what all of the little flashes are. Logic indicates propellant because small arms munitions don't have that kind of velocity or brightness to them.

 
Advertisement
Gatorhater said:
I see this OT got hot while I was away. Without reading everything it does appear that many of us, as usual, have declared ourselves correct an all other idiots. We are have "sides" that we take, it is normal. The Middle East has been battle ground since about the beginning of time. "Right" historically goes to the side with the biggest sticks. Once blood starts flowing the idea of "rules" fades under necessity and desperation.

Just the last 100 years of merely the Holy Land is fascinating. Now, I come at this from my own "correct" pov but I will try to be balanced. Terrorism? What is it and where did it start? Most will agree that it is taking innocent lives but the definition of innocent seems flexible. The Brits considered Patriots "tactics" of having snipers target officers to be terrorism. Hum. Flash forward to WWII and Air Marshal Harris declared German civilians legitimate targets and hence the area bombing of residential areas. Back to the Brits in a minute.

The PLO and other Moslem groups certainly are well known for it today. They seem to thrive on a different type of "bombing" and are quite good at it. We of course find it offensive(I agree that is it but am trying to be balanced). Interesting enough Israel come into play here too. Does anyone remember Menachem Begin? He was Prime Minister of Is real and great hero of their battle for a ****** State. He also was part of Jimmy Carter's great accomplishment, the Camp David Accords with Egyptian President Anwar Sadat bringing peace between them - still working over 40 years later( not bad by Middle east historic standards.) Now. Begin himself was responsible for a "bombing" of hotel full of British officers, killing hundreds during post WWII conflict that establish modern Israel. Terrorist to the Brits but national hero to Jews.

Later the Brits became victim to more "bombing" by my Irish cousins during The Troubles. Poor Brits. But wait. before we feel sorry for the Brits, guess who trained the IRA how to make bombs". None other than the PLO. It gets better who taught the Arabs how to make bombs? Yeap, back in WWI the Brits taught Arabs how to make them to bight the Ottoman Empire for independence. Arabs were not shy about killing Turks. Now there were Jews in the Holy land then and they also wanted free of the Ottomans so who taught them? I am not sure but I bet those Brits had a hand in that too.

Now, I have every strong positions on about everything and certainly know who is my terrorist and my hero, but I allow that others might feel different. I am devout Catholic and really respect and enjoy discussions with devout Moslems, but realize we have killed each other for centuries and will again so I do keep adequate suppliers of fresh ammo on hand at all times for them and others.
Click to expand...
There are also plenty of IRA who were former british security and Army. Best trained terrorist group in history, in my opinion.
 
Salt said:
Obama ran into the Tea Party in congress. And Sleepy Joe needs to have the Bernie Bros and the AOC fanatical groupies to breathe life into the nostrils of his "Night Of The Living Dead" campaign. They will want something in return.

And if Tetrasticles doesn't down vote this post, I will feel very unaccomplished.
Click to expand...
He did, he did!!!! Thank you Tetras!
 
UMFarArcher said:
I probably had the benefit of multiple views of the explosion going off from multiple angles that the other "experts" didn't have.

Three separate explosions.

Three separate high, voluminous columns of smoke after the flash.

Three vastly different, separate colors.

And most important - nitrates do go 'boom,' but nitrates do NOT have a big fireball as was clearly shown.

We're supposed to believe that massive explosion is all due to some dumbasses storing cheap-assed, very old fertilizer in valuable dry storage facilities right next to the docks at a key port? And store it there for years and years?

When lots more badly needed or badly desired products would be better stored in the immediate buildings right next to the docks?

You don't put fertilizer - old fertilizer - cheap fertilizer in a busy port storage unit right next to the docks - for many years - when you can and should distribute the fertilizer around the country to assist in growing food.

Limited storage facilities everywhere else in the world - means prioritizing those things being stored. Things - expensive things - valuable things - that you may want to offload 24/7 - some things under the cover of darkness - and quickly get them inside. In buildings right next to the docks. Where they too, can later be distributed to more suitable long-term storage facilities. Making more room in limited dock storage - to received other more valuable imports.

Dry temporary storage buildings in a port are temporary storage facilities have valuable dry space - and not for what's essentially a load of chemical s * *t. Cheap s * * t.

Keep in mind - we only saw the last half of this event. We didn't see the beginning. The source of the fire. The source of all the early smoke. That had drawn enough attention that later, folks wanted to record a fire - and just happened to catch the explosion.

Something else started the fire. Old fertilizer self-igniting? Full of moisture? Exploding in three rapid sequence explosions? And giving off volumes of red smoke? Volumes of white smoke column? Volumes of a large tan smoke column?

Sometimes we have to use our heads for something other than making faces.
Click to expand...
All that’s possible. But, it’s also possible that they were privy to views and information that you are not. Again, your position to the contrary notwithstanding, I don’t know you or your expertise or credentials - and I’m not doubting them either. Only your conclusion.

You referenced a ship in one of your posts…I think the concencus is that it was the storage facility.

I’d rather wait; otherwise it becomes fertile ground for those with an agenda to say Israel, Hamas, Hezbulah, the death star trials or the four horseman of the apocalypse. Or, those who would rather say with a straight-face exactly what happened without evidence rather than frown and admit…they really just don’t know.
 
Advertisement
Explosives have signatures. This did not have the signature of a single source oxidant.

It's simple physics.

Not death stars, horsemen, or James Bond stuff.

Physics.

One thing cannot suddenly become three separate things.
 
Salt said:
He did, he did!!!! Thank you Tetras!
Click to expand...
@JD08 please school this one some more, I was hoping you were making headway.

NaCl can enrich the taste of most foods … as far as this conversation you’re “enrichment” is falling short of your namesake.

stay with me here… you said: “…Berne yada, yada, yada; AOC yada, yada, yada” breathed life into Biden’s campaign. That’s not just factually incorrect, it’s wrong beyond recovery.

So here’s the facts: there’s this place called South Carolina. Some people call it Caroline, some call it Cakkalacky - the Carolina part, I mean. And it’s what is called a state. And there was thing called a primary in that state. And this black congressman, I think his daddy’s name was Clyburn…his momma named him James. He raised up like Moses parting the Red Sea and said the electoral equivalent of “part, water” or was it “Bernie’s, Bernies everywhere and not one we can vote for”? I’m messing up my water allegories here. But he said “vote fuh” because he has that cool gully accent from South Carolina. Oh yeah, oh yeah, well all the people followed him and forgot all about the Bernie/AOC yada, yada, yada and Biden started getting votes from everywhere. And the whole time the Biden/AOC yada, yada, yada, was like, “what happened?” And then other states had primaries, and without Clyburn saying a thing, more people voted for Biden. And then the people all said, “sit down, Bernie … you’re rocking the boat” Mixing more metaphors of course. And, then people realized, “Wait, you mean Bernie/AOC don’t have the support of the party?” that “it was the order of the states voting/caucusing that skewed Bernie/AOC support” “Because Biden is getting votes nearly 2-1 in the later states with no money, no organization and no campaign”

You keep making Rightist talking points that are 100% not true. JD wants me to be fair with you but you keep making unfair arguments. Arguments that are demonstrably wrong. I’d call them lies, but you have to know the truth to be lying. And I don’t think you know the truth. I’d say do better, but I’m at the point of going back to just downvoting you.
 
UMFarArcher said:
Explosives have signatures. This did not have the signature of a single source oxidant.

It's simple physics.

Not death stars, horsemen, or James Bond stuff.

Physics.

One thing cannot suddenly become three separate things.
Click to expand...
Again, I am not saying you don’t know your stuff. I just think it’s too early … you feel differently.
 
Advertisement
Back
Top