Off-Topic Mass killings

[JD08]

You're putting forth a strawman, buddy.

What I was arguing in this thread is not that mental health is not an issue, but that there is stronger correlation between mass shootings in this country and other underlying factors. Individuals who suffer from mental illness are more likely to harm themselves, than to kill large swaths of people. Attempting to bring up the mental health crisis in this country during mass shootings, completely misses the larger & more important pts relating to this issue. If you are going to talk about mental health and the role it plays in mass shootings, then it makes much more sense to talk about the aftermath of these incidents. Exposure to gun violence is associated with an increased risk for depression & PTSD.

Wow, my bad. I must have been thrown off by the title of the link you posted.

Mental illness and reduction of gun violence and suicide​

 

[Trafficante]

Wow, my bad. I must have been thrown off by the title of the link you posted.

Mental illness and reduction of gun violence and suicide​

I guess that's what happens when you try to understand & discuss something through the prism of your own preconceived notions & assumptions.

From the very same article..

Results​

Media accounts of mass shootings by disturbed individuals galvanize public attention and reinforce popular belief that mental illness often results in violence. Epidemiologic studies show that the large majority of people with serious mental illnesses are never violent. However, mental illness is strongly associated with increased risk of suicide, which accounts for over half of US firearms–related fatalities.

 

[We the Boss]

That's why calling for an increased police presence in schools, or arming teachers is beyond retarded, when it comes to preventing mass shootings. The uvalde city school district already had it's own police department, and the suspect before going on his killing spree, crashed his car, and was engaged by multiple police officers. There is no evidence that police have the ability to stop these shootings from happening, because it's a reactive measure. Instead an increased police presence would lead to the further harassment & criminalization of disciplinary problems, which will disproportionately fall on students of color. Think about how ridiculous it is to think an armed teacher could've prevented a mass shooting by a suspect wearing body armor & an AR-15? After the mass shooting at Stoneman Douglas, state law in FLA allowed teachers to be armed, and what resulted was unintended consequences by armed officers & teachers accidentally firing their weapons & injuring students.

This is the main problem with this country. Whenever a crisis like this occurs, instead of marshalling a robust preventative measure, we wait until the issue expresses itself in a mass shooting, and then micro-analyze the police response. We're doing everything backwards

We need a multifaceted approach.

I guess that's what happens when you try to understand & discuss something through the prism of your own preconceived notions & assumptions.

From the very same article..

Results​

Media accounts of mass shootings by disturbed individuals galvanize public attention and reinforce popular belief that mental illness often results in violence. Epidemiologic studies show that the large majority of people with serious mental illnesses are never violent. However, mental illness is strongly associated with increased risk of suicide, which accounts for over half of US firearms–related fatalities.

the result is spurious. The question isn’t are the majority non violent. The question is are mentally Ill more violent than normies and if so at what rate. The article is advocacy masquerading as science.

 

[JD08]

I guess that's what happens when you try to understand & discuss something through the prism of your own preconceived notions & assumptions.

From the very same article..

Results​

Media accounts of mass shootings by disturbed individuals galvanize public attention and reinforce popular belief that mental illness often results in violence. Epidemiologic studies show that the large majority of people with serious mental illnesses are never violent. However, mental illness is strongly associated with increased risk of suicide, which accounts for over half of US firearms–related fatalities.

Which is why I said mental health needs to be an issue with teen suicides on the rise.

As far as "media accounts", they'd also have you believe this is the only place in the world where it happens. Mostly because they don't report it from other countries unless it's something huge like the Charlie Hebdo massacre that killed 17 or the Norway massacre that killed 77.

 

[Suhrthing]

The Swiss also don’t engage in military adventures around the globe while trying to police the world.

That too. But the point I was making is that all able bodied men get training, and are issued rifles (and until recently ammunition). The Swiss have fairly liberal gun policies and history of gun culture - but no history of mass-shootings and not much gun violence.

 

[AUcane]

Interestingly, a former police chief was on the news and he said police training shifted after Columbine. The training change specified that for shootings at buildings and schools (latter more importantly), police are now told to go in rather than wait and assess. Don’t know how widespread this training is but thought it was interesting.

 

[Mikeiavelli]

The cops job is not to protect you. Its to enforce the law. So that person making that quote was unfortunately misinformed. Black people have understood this for the longest time.

As a former LEO you are wrong. Laws exist to protect people from eachother. Protecting the public and enforcing the law go hand in hand.

 

[Garnacho]

Pretty similar thing happened at Columbine. And nothing happened to any agency because of government immunity.

And as far as LE 'obligations' go, I would check out the DeShaney v Winnebago County ruling

This is why you go private security

 

[MidnightCane]

We need a multifaceted approach.

the result is spurious. The question isn’t are the majority non violent. The question is are mentally Ill more violent than normies and if so at what rate. The article is advocacy masquerading as science.

Did you just say, SCIENCE!?

 

[Suhrthing]

I hope all of this happened after Ramos was neutralized...



Else those LEO protected and served the f outta those parents.
Crazy 90 minute elapsed between the first 911 call and Ramos getting ended.

Moment frantic parents urge cops to storm Texas school

Footage from outside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, shows parents screaming at law enforcement to enter the building. It is unclear when the footage was shot, and if the gunman was dead.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JD08]

That too. But the point I was making is that all able bodied men get training, and are issued rifles (and until recently ammunition). The Swiss have fairly liberal gun policies and history of gun culture - but no history of mass-shootings and not much gun violence.

They also have a population of around 9 million. They had a guy back in September 2001 that killed 14 members of Parliament but news here was kind of dominated by terrorism and he was just a nutjob.

 

[Garnacho]

I hope all of this happened after Ramos was neutralized...



Else those LEO protected and served the f outta those parents.
Crazy 90 minute elapsed between the first 911 call and Ramos getting ended.

Moment frantic parents urge cops to storm Texas school

Footage from outside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, shows parents screaming at law enforcement to enter the building. It is unclear when the footage was shot, and if the gunman was dead.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Shooting was declared over at 1:06pm. Guy says this was 12:54

 

[imurcane]

Don't want to argue with you as I have seen you in other threads. I would love a tank. Sat in an Abrams once .

Dont argue then. Opportunity cost is an economic term. I didnt make it up. Neither of us had the choice of driving our tanks to work today. There was no cost, no opportunity cost for us today with a tank. So tank companies dont make them with civilians in mind. You say people dont buy them bc they are against the law. Im saying people dont buy them bc they cant afford them. Perhaps some eccentric souls out there would snag a tank if legal. Cool.

 

[Garnacho]

 

[Trafficante]

We need a multifaceted approach.

the result is spurious. The question isn’t are the majority non violent. The question is are mentally Ill more violent than normies and if so at what rate. The article is advocacy masquerading as science.

I never knew the NCBI was a repository for spurious information & pseudo science. How foolish of me to think papers written by PHDs and researchers, actually had valid findings

The difference in the rate of violence amongst those who are mentally ill, compared to those who are sane, is marginal. 0.8% vs 2.9% respectively. So this is a pointless & irrelevant question. The more pertinent question to ask as it relates to this situation is why some people with serious mental illness are prone to aggression or violence while others are not? The answer to this question has to do with other underlying factors that are present in these individuals, like substance abuse, childhood trauma, and environmental conditions. I already said this numerous times in this thread. Furthermore, those underlying factors also drive violent episodes in individuals who are not mentally ill. When you remove underlying factors from the equation, the rates of violence between the mentally ill and the sane population ends up being more or less the same.

In the end what needs to be understood is that mass shootings account for less than 1% of firearm homicides and tend to be committed by individuals with issues besides diagnosable mental illnesses.

 

[Suhrthing]

**** media clowns...

BORTAC unit that reportedly killed Uvalde shooter has violent history

You might recognize the BORTAC from the Portland protests.

www.mysanantonio.com

 

[NC_Canes_11]

We don't meet in the middle. 20 deaths, while a tragedy, is insignificant. Gun violence, hate speech etc. A necessary evil in a free, but decadent and morally declining society. I'll take it over the alternative.

This is correct. The only difference between now and 40 years ago, when this didn’t happen, is the cultural and moral decline.

 

[CFLCane]

UVALDE, Texas (AP) — Frustrated onlookers urged police officers to charge into the Texas elementary school where a gunman’s rampage killed 19 children and two teachers, witnesses said Wednesday, as investigators worked to track the massacre that lasted upwards of 40 minutes and ended when the 18-year-old shooter was killed by a Border Patrol team.

“Go in there! Go in there!” nearby women shouted at the officers soon after the attack began, said Juan Carranza, 24, who saw the scene from outside his house, across the street from Robb Elementary School in the close-knit town of Uvalde. Carranza said the officers did not go in.

Javier Cazares, whose fourth grade daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, was killed in the attack, said he raced to the school when he heard about the shooting, arriving while police were still massed outside the building.

Upset that police were not moving in, he raised the idea of charging into the school with several other bystanders.

“Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to,” he said. “More could have been done.”

“They were unprepared,” he added.

Minutes earlier, Carranza had watched as Salvador Ramos crashed his truck into a ditch outside the school, grabbed his AR-15-style semi-automatic rifle and shot at two people outside a nearby funeral home who ran away uninjured.

Officials say he “encountered” a school district security officer outside the school, though there were conflicting reports from authorities on whether the men exchanged gunfire. After running inside, he fired on two arriving Uvalde police officers who were outside the building, said Texas Department of Public Safety spokesperson Travis Considine. The police officers were injured.

After entering the school, Ramos charged into one classroom and began to kill.

Full Coverage: Uvalde school shooting
He “barricaded himself by locking the door and just started shooting children and teachers that were inside that classroom,” Lt. Christopher Olivarez of the Department of Public Safety told CNN. “It just shows you the complete evil of the shooter.”

All those killed were in the same classroom, he said.

Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw said 40 minutes to an hour elapsed from when Ramos opened fire on the school security officer and when the SWAT-like Border Patrol team shot him. But a department spokesman said later in the day that they could not give a solid estimate of how long the gunman was in the school or when he was killed.

Meanwhile, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said the Border Patrol agents had trouble breaching the classroom door and had to get a staff member to open the room with a key. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the ongoing investigation.

Blue line ******* cowards. If they cant put their life on the line for children fire every one of them.

 

[Trafficante]

Which is why I said mental health needs to be an issue with teen suicides on the rise.

The title of this thread is mass killings. Not gun violence by mentally ill individuals that results in suicides.

As far as "media accounts", they'd also have you believe this is the only place in the world where it happens. Mostly because they don't report it from other countries unless it's something huge like the Charlie Hebdo massacre that killed 17 or the Norway massacre that killed 77.

Why would American media outlets overstate the amount of mass shootings in America, but understate it for everywhere else in the world?? What do you think their motive would be for doing that? It makes absolutely no sense. Wouldn't corporate media outlets in other countries follow similar practices as well? I know it's going to be very difficult for you to accept this reality, but mass shootings & gun violence are uniquely an American problem.

America’s Gun Problem (Published 2022)

More guns in the U.S. mean more deaths.

www.nytimes.com

 

[We the Boss]

They also have a population of around 9 million. They had a guy back in September 2001 that killed 14 members of Parliament but news here was kind of dominated by terrorism and he was just a nutjob.

Interesting data.