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How have we never won the ACC?

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Biggest issue was lack of UM support to supporting the total football program at the level required to be a solid program. Clemson made the $$ commitment and built a solid foundation at the same time that Miami allowed THEIR foundation to erode. Thank God for Mark Richt and his efforts to get the IPF built!! Then Herbstreit for putting UM’s “lack of interest” into the front headlines. Things are looking up - but from a lower level than this program should ever of been at.
 
We were so top heavy in the early 2000’s that this list would be broken. That’s how many guys we had that no one can catch up. Services were inaccurate asf and gave us the benefit of the doubt cause our early evals in the 2000’s. When you look ant it now Our talent after that was decent but not as good tbh. Even if guys were talented their nfl production always showed you there was a difference between what we get and what we used to get. Although talented our rosters were built terrible every **** time till Mario got here.
 
Angry Ibis said:
Schiano is still average at Rutgers 25 years later, but he probably wins with the Coker team, then probably flames out in the NFL like he did.
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I look at his 1st tenure at Rutgers and think he would have done big things here. Rutgers was awful before him and respectable toward the end of his time there. He also found a lot of gems that ended up being good in the league. Who knows, but I think he does better than Coker.
 
JennStrawley’sBabyDaddy said:
I look at his 1st tenure at Rutgers and think he would have done big things here. Rutgers was awful before him and respectable toward the end of his time there. He also found a lot of gems that ended up being good in the league. Who knows, but I think he does better than Coker.
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Possible. Yet, 25 years later, his claim to fame is handing Miami our first loss to Rutgers in the tough and physical meat head bowl in Yankee Stadium…
 
DTP said:
They were 69th in total offense. 54th in rushing offense. 83rd in passing offense.

Not anywhere near the top ten or even top 20.

It’s very hard to score a lot of points if you can’t move the ball consistently. You have to rrely on your defense giving you great field position and getting turnovers. That sort of thing is near impossible do do over multiple seasons. We saw it in 2018. All of the sudden we weren’t getting all the turnovers we got in 2017 and our scoring went into the toilet despite having pretty much all the same players on offense.

Michigan was 113th in scoring last year. Not the kind of fluctuations I want in my offense.
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Sorry I was looking at 22-23 where their offense was elite and top 20 in every major category.

Doesn’t change the fact that they were 12th in PPG. Thats .2 PPG more than OSU this year. OSU had them by 40ish yards per game. Michigan a far better TOP split. The same redzone scoring %. OSU half a % better on 3rd down. Michigan by a mile better on 4th down. OSU better in yards per play overall. OSU better in yard per run. Very close in yards per pass. Scoring margin per game favors Michigan by more than a FG. Which is also why “total offense” means nothing to me. If you don’t try in the second half bc you’re already up 30, it skews numbers. If you have a terrible defense and you’re in a shootout every week it skews the numbers.

You’re splitting hairs when you look at the actual numbers. You’re just enamored with OSU’s explosiveness and their skill talent. But Michigan was just as good with their style, that was actually less effective than it was the year before. So no just bc they dropped off bc they lost their elite players on offense and HC doesn’t meant their style doesn’t work.
 
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RF-4CCane said:
How many teams have won NC’s since 1994 with traditional offenses?

I’d wager about half.

Not to mention, the 1989-1994 UM offensive scheme had little in common with Butch/Coker’s offense, which more resembled JJ’s than Erickson’s.

Defense and solid offense win games.

You could have wheeled Gary Steven’s into a booth last year and we still would have had the #1 offense.
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Gary Stevens hasn't been the same since they banned smoking on planes.
 
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NC_Canes_11 said:
Sorry I was looking at 22-23 where their offense was elite and top 20 in every major category.

Doesn’t change the fact that they were 12th in PPG. Thats .2 PPG more than OSU this year. OSU had them by 40ish yards per game. Michigan a far better TOP split. The same redzone scoring %. OSU half a % better on 3rd down. Michigan by a mile better on 4th down. OSU better in yards per play overall. OSU better in yard per run. Very close in yards per pass. Scoring margin per game favors Michigan by more than a FG. Which is also why “total offense” means nothing to me. If you don’t try in the second half bc you’re already up 30, it skews numbers. If you have a terrible defense and you’re in a shootout every week it skews the numbers.

You’re splitting hairs when you look at the actual numbers. You’re just enamored with OSU’s explosiveness and their skill talent. But Michigan was just as good with their style, that was actually less effective than it was the year before. So no just bc they dropped off bc they lost their elite players on offense and HC doesn’t meant their style doesn’t work.
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My numbers were from 2023 when they won the championship.
 
DTP said:
My numbers were from 2023 when they won the championship.
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My entire second paragraph was from their championship year. They are comparable to OSU’s offense that just won it. “Total offense” is a sham statistic when your margin of winning is over 25 points per game.
 
NC_Canes_11 said:
My entire second paragraph was from their championship year. They are comparable to OSU’s offense that just won it. “Total offense” is a sham statistic when your margin of winning is over 25 points per game.
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And they only had to cheat to have one good year. Once again, total offense isn’t the end all be all statistic but it’s very hard to consistently score a lot when you can’t move the ball a lot. It’s great to get turnovers, field position and non offensive scores but those things tend to revert to the mean eventually. We saw it revert in 2024 and their scoring fell off a cliff.

Besides, if I’m building an offense in 2025, I’m not picking the one outlier team of the last 15 years and designing my offense like theirs.
 
The good players, no matter how many there are, are significantly outweighed by all of the bad hombres, poon hounds, video game nerds, and unserious football players that littered our roster right below the good players. (how many November collapses have we experienced because the team gave up, no matter how good we were throughout the season - shouts to 2017 for reference - ?).

A lot of the coaches have gone on to better after their time here, but many of them weren't fits here and this was maybe the worst stop on their journey to be the coach they are today. We've had Super Bowl winning and National Championship winning offensive line coaches here. Not shocked we have a lot of pro OL.

We had the best TE coach in the country and his influence bulks that TE number up a bit, but we have had good TEs for almost 30 years straight at this point. We live in South Florida and RB and DBs grow on trees. We are always going to have those in the league in volume, as we have over the past 50 years.

We lacked significant investment in the program from the top, down.

We fumbled the bag on more than one occasion.

Not having an actual good QB (I don't care that they ended up statistically significant on our all-time list...Morris, Kaaya, Rosier, and i guess I have to throw in Jacorey to be intellectually honest, KW2M and other slop are not or were not ACC caliber winning QBs)...they just aren't good enough to win the conference unless the rest of the team is stacked or well coached (we've been neither). -- go look at a list Over this 25 year period, 12 ACC Championship winners had a QB that would become a R1 quarterback (it might be 13 or 14 if Klubnik wins it again and he ends up a R1 player). Extend that to 16 if you add in long time NFL QB Tyrod Taylor winning 2, Shaun Hill would be a 10 year backup in the NFL for Maryland so add another on top of that. Out of 25 winners, you could say 18 of them had R1 or long time NFL starting QBs)

There are a few QB stinkers in there, but they were surrounded by a good, well coached team and were just better college QBs than pro QBs - example Tajh Boyd or Riley Skinner).

We had R1P1 Cam Ward and coaching and weaknesses on the roster even failed us when we finally got a QB worth a ****, but the previous 20-ish years of mid QB play is another reason.
 
JennStrawley’sBabyDaddy said:
I look at his 1st tenure at Rutgers and think he would have done big things here. Rutgers was awful before him and respectable toward the end of his time there. He also found a lot of gems that ended up being good in the league. Who knows, but I think he does better than Coker.
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They were awful before he got there, but a lot of that Rutgers success was fool's gold. He stripped down the OOC schedule, and relied on a watered down Big East to pad the numbers. Keep in mind, Rutgers didn't start doing anything of note until AFTER Miami, VT and BC left. Once the Big East backfilled with midmajors that when Rutgers took that step forward. Compared to what they were before Schiano, it was heaven.

They are in the B1G because of an accident of geography, not because of Greg's ability to beat on USF back in the day.
 
DTP said:
And they only had to cheat to have one good year. Once again, total offense isn’t the end all be all statistic but it’s very hard to consistently score a lot when you can’t move the ball a lot. It’s great to get turnovers, field position and non offensive scores but those things tend to revert to the mean eventually. We saw it revert in 2024 and their scoring fell off a cliff.

Besides, if I’m building an offense in 2025, I’m not picking the one outlier team of the last 15 years and designing my offense like theirs.
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Harbaugh was 86-25 at Michigan. That’s hardly “one good year.” EspeciLly when I just rattled off that they were a top 2 offense the year before.

Let me know when you’re ready to have a serious conversation about this or you can just admit that you don’t like run first offenses. Even though they’ve worked many times for Bama, UGA, LSU, OSU, Michigan, and whoever else since the turn of the century.
 
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NC_Canes_11 said:
Harbaugh was 86-25 at Michigan. That’s hardly “one good year.” EspeciLly when I just rattled off that they were a top 2 offense the year before.

Let me know when you’re ready to have a serious conversation about this or you can just admit that you don’t like run first offenses. Even though they’ve worked many times for Bama, UGA, LSU, OSU, Michigan, and whoever else since the turn of the century.
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It always comes back to run vs throw with people who don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s got nothing to do with being “run first”. It’s about the outdated philosophy that to run the ball you need to line up with two tight ends an a fullback to run the ball. When that’s literally the least efficient way to move the ball.

It’s been a long time since anyone has had success doing it that way outside of a an outlier Michigan team that literally just got hammered by the NCAA for cheating. Alabama, UGA ans LSU abandoned that style a long time ago. OSU has been a spread offense team since Urban Meyer got there. It’s just stupid to purposely handcuff your offense when the rules have all m changed to make doing everything on offense easier.
 
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